$15/hr minimum wage

[Beaker]

California passed a law that will hike the minimum wage to $15/hr. It increases incrementally each year until the target is met. Right now they are only at $11/hr and are already feeling the effects.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2018/08/06/california-passed-15-an-hour-two-years-ago-hows-it-working/#1ab02f3a4fa4

Turns out it is hurting the middle class and rural manufacturers....kinda the people it was supposed to help. Other economic factors are involved, but it is one of the key factors itself.

[treee]

(08-07-2018, 02:04 AM)Beaker Wrote: California passed a law that will hike the minimum wage to $15/hr. It increases incrementally each year until the target is met. Right now they are only at $11/hr and are already feeling the effects.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2018/08/06/california-passed-15-an-hour-two-years-ago-hows-it-working/#1ab02f3a4fa4

Turns out it is hurting the middle class and rural manufacturers....kinda the people it was supposed to help. Other economic factors are involved, but it is one of the key factors itself.

How in the world was minimum wage ever intended to help the middle class? 

[Millhouse]

A generic minimum wage increase for a big state like that isn't a good thing. As the article states, New York had a minimum wage increase, but included regional variations for areas outside of NYC with a much less cost of living, which is how minimum wage increases should be done.

[Stewy]

(08-07-2018, 02:37 AM)Millhouse Wrote: A generic minimum wage increase for a big state like that isn't a good thing. As the article states,  New York had a minimum wage increase, but included regional variations for areas outside of NYC with a much less cost of living, which is how minimum wage increases should be done.

And should be fairly easy to calculate if you start with population density and adjust for avg revenue generated by business sub regionally.  Those are numbers that exist publicly, so yes it should be easy to have a regional varying minimum wage. 

[BmorePat87]

The source is suspect, coming from a conservative think tank based out of Texas.

It seems like California has a lot of issues unrelated to minimum wage, but regardless of that and the motives of the author, I think minimum wage hikes in states with very diverse regional economies should be varied, much like Millhouse mentioned.

A $15 minimum wage may make more sense in a city but less so in a rural area. Maryland passed an incremental hike a few years back, but 88% of our population lives in either the DC or Baltimore metropolitan areas.

[Yojimbo]

My state, Oregon, implemented regional min. wage. The 4 major cities (Portland, Salem, Eugene and Bend) will go to $15, bigger towns will go to $13.75 and rural will go to $12.75. That should work out here, but I think a min. wage still needs to be tied to inflation or we’re just going to be having this fight again in 10 years.

[Belsnickel]

(08-07-2018, 02:37 AM)Millhouse Wrote: A generic minimum wage increase for a big state like that isn't a good thing. As the article states, New York had a minimum wage increase, but included regional variations for areas outside of NYC with a much less cost of living, which is how minimum wage increases should be done.

(08-07-2018, 11:45 AM)Stewy Wrote: And should be fairly easy to calculate if you start with population density and adjust for avg revenue generated by business sub regionally.  Those are numbers that exist publicly, so yes it should be easy to have a regional varying minimum wage. 

(08-07-2018, 04:14 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: My state, Oregon, implemented regional min. wage. The 4 major cities (Portland, Salem, Eugene and Bend) will go to $15, bigger towns will go to $13.75 and rural will go to $12.75. That should work out here, but I think a min. wage still needs to be tied to inflation or we’re just going to be having this fight again in 10 years.

Now, this is just logical thinking. You know that isn't allowed in these discussions.

In all seriousness, this is all very true. A sustainable minimum wage is something with a lot of variability depending on the location and we need to treat it as such.

[SunsetBengal]

(08-07-2018, 11:57 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The source is suspect, coming from a conservative think tank based out of Texas.

It seems like California has a lot of issues unrelated to minimum wage, but regardless of that and the motives of the author, I think minimum wage hikes in states with very diverse regional economies should be varied, much like Millhouse mentioned.

A $15 minimum wage may make more sense in a city but less so in a rural area. Maryland passed an incremental hike a few years back, but 88% of our population lives in either the DC or Baltimore metropolitan areas.

Don't be so hard on Texas.  If I recall correctly, Texas and Tennessee have been the prime beneficiaries to the exodus of businesses from California in recent years.  Between their sky high taxes, and the sanctuary State policies, they are driving both people and businesses away by the millions.

The $15/hr State wide minimum wage is yet another in a long line of policy failures by California's legislative bodies.  Thanks to those assholes, regular joes all across the nation now have to order by kiosk at McDonalds, if they choose to go inside.  Gee, thanks California..  

[Belsnickel]

(08-07-2018, 07:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The $15/hr State wide minimum wage is yet another in a long line of policy failures by California's legislative bodies.  Thanks to those assholes, regular joes all across the nation now have to order by kiosk at McDonalds, if they choose to go inside.  Gee, thanks California..  

I believe that the people that caused the socioeconomic problems that the raise in the minimum wage is an attempt to fix would be the ones to thank for that. Like the free-trade conservatives and the neo-liberal Democrats that have been running things for the past 40 years and the capitalist fat cats that have put profit over the well-being of their workers.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

The thing that makes me laugh about the people who want the $15/hr is they either don't understand that it would then increase the cost of their goods, or they naively believe that the wage increase will come straight out of the profits of the business rather than a price increase.

Restaurants are a narrow profit margin business. Say you have 40 minimum wage employees working at a place making $10/hr right now, all working 40 hour weeks. That means the payroll for them would be $64,000 per month.

Now say those people get a raise to $15/hr. That payroll is now $96,000 per month.

That extra $32,000 per month needs to come from somewhere, and maybe McDonalds that are owned by the corporation itself could eat that kind of increase, but what about franchise owners in rural areas? If you own one franchise, there's no way you can eat that cost. So then you need to raise your prices. That $2 double cheeseburger now needs to be $3, your $1 menu now becomes the $1.50 menu.

And who are the people who are most reliant on the dollar menu? That's right, the people who make minimum wage. So suddenly they might be making 50% more, but they're paying 50% more too, so nothing has changed except maybe the small handful of restaurants that COULD afford to absorb the wage increase without increasing prices didn't have to raise their prices 50%, and are now much much more affordable than their competition, which would lead to them crushing the competition and just becoming that much more monolithic.

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2018, 07:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Don't be so hard on Texas.  If I recall correctly, Texas and Tennessee have been the prime beneficiaries to the exodus of businesses from The $15/hr State wide minimum wage is yet another in a long line of policy failures by California's legislative bodies.  Thanks to those assholes, regular joes all across the nation now have to order by kiosk at McDonalds, if they choose to go inside.  Gee, thanks California..  

Meh, the minimum wage here in PA is still $7.25 and they have replaced many Wal Mart registers with self checkouts and self scan registers and so on.  Hell, they're even giving people carts with hand held scanners and bags in them so you can scan your groceries and bag them yourself while you shop.  Let's be honest, the minimum wage could be $2 an hour and as soon as they find a way to get rid of people they have to pay $2 an hour they will.

It's just business.  

(08-07-2018, 08:21 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The thing that makes me laugh about the people who want the $15/hr is they either don't understand that it would then increase the cost of their goods, or they naively believe that the wage increase will come straight out of the profits of the business rather than a price increase.

Restaurants are a narrow profit margin business. Say you have 40 minimum wage employees working at a place making $10/hr right now, all working 40 hour weeks. That means the payroll for them would be $64,000 per month.

Now say those people get a raise to $15/hr. That payroll is now $96,000 per month.

That extra $32,000 per month needs to come from somewhere, and maybe McDonalds that are owned by the corporation itself could eat that kind of increase, but what about franchise owners in rural areas? If you own one franchise, there's no way you can eat that cost. So then you need to raise your prices. That $2 double cheeseburger now needs to be $3, your $1 menu now becomes the $1.50 menu.

Can't the people who own the McDonald's just work harder and live within their means rather than raising prices?

[SunsetBengal]

(08-07-2018, 08:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I believe that the people that caused the socioeconomic problems that the raise in the minimum wage is an attempt to fix would be the ones to thank for that. Like the free-trade conservatives and the neo-liberal Democrats that have been running things for the past 40 years and the capitalist fat cats that have put profit over the well-being of their workers.

I understand corporate greed.  I also understand a significant portion of a population that refuses to increase their value, through education and development of higher grade skillsets.  Opportunity is there, for most anyone willing to work hard and better themselves, to earn a fair living.  Why else are tech companies and science based industries having to recruit so hard from the (S-1) visa programs?  Heck, skilled and semi-skilled trade jobs are in higher demand than ever, pay for those jobs has never been higher.

Perhaps public education should adjust their focus a bit?  Rather than attempting to steer everyone toward degree programs, they could do a better job of identifying those who would excel in professions requiring only an associates or trade school education.  Blue collar jobs that pay are out there, the young people just don't know that they exist, because their not being shown or directed toward them.

[*Nately120*]

(08-07-2018, 08:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Perhaps public education should adjust their focus a bit?  Rather than attempting to steer everyone toward degree programs, they could do a better job of identifying those who would excel in professions requiring only an associates or trade school education.  Blue collar jobs that pay are out there, the young people just don't know that they exist, because their not being shown or directed toward them.

The government directing people towards professions?  Ida know...sounds like the first step towards communism!

[Belsnickel]

(08-07-2018, 08:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I understand corporate greed.  I also understand a significant portion of a population that refuses to increase their value, through education and development of higher grade skillsets.  Opportunity is there, for most anyone willing to work hard and better themselves, to earn a fair living.  Why else are tech companies and science based industries having to recruit so hard from the (S-1) visa programs?  Heck, skilled and semi-skilled trade jobs are in higher demand than ever, pay for those jobs has never been higher.

Perhaps public education should adjust their focus a bit?  Rather than attempting to steer everyone toward degree programs, they could do a better job of identifying those who would excel in professions requiring only an associates or trade school education.  Blue collar jobs that pay are out there, the young people just don't know that they exist, because their not being shown or directed toward them.

I've advocated for such educational changes many times in the past.

(08-07-2018, 08:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote: The government directing people towards professions?  Ida know...sounds like the first step towards communism!

Shh, I'm winning them over to the side of big government!

[*bfine32*]

Minimum wage is exactly that: minimum. Once you set it you cannot go below; however, you have to flexibility to go above it depending on experience and additional skills. Once a state (never mind a federal) government raises the minimum wage it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle.

I want folks to make as much money as they can, but their needs to be economic stratification and motivation to advance.

[Belsnickel]

(08-07-2018, 08:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I want folks to make as much money as they can, but their needs to be economic stratification and motivation to advance.

Agreed. However, if the stratification becomes such that it is highly improbable that a higher strata is attainable then the motivation disappears. Instead, discontent leads to revolutionary zeal. This is what has happened countless times throughout history and is starting to happen now. Making policy changes to create a sort of pressure valve is the only way to prevent things from getting too dire.

I would agree with anyone that increasing the minimum wage in broad strokes is going to be ineffective and only a surface level fix (if one could call it that), but we need policy solutions sooner rather than later.

[*bfine32*]

(08-07-2018, 08:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Agreed. However, if the stratification becomes such that it is highly improbable that a higher strata is attainable then the motivation disappears. Instead, discontent leads to revolutionary zeal. This is what has happened countless times throughout history and is starting to happen now. Making policy changes to create a sort of pressure valve is the only way to prevent things from getting too dire.

I would agree with anyone that increasing the minimum wage in broad strokes is going to be ineffective and only a surface level fix (if one could call it that), but we need policy solutions sooner rather than later.

Unfortunately, the only way I can see this happening is for the government to augment wages. You force the business owner to pay more he/she is going to raise prices. You tax the business owner more he/she is just going to raise prices. 

I suppose there could be tax incentives based on how much above minimum wage your employees make or number of employees per profit margin. I'm just one that believe the free market will bare out. 

[SunsetBengal]

(08-07-2018, 08:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote: The government directing people towards professions?  Ida know...sounds like the first step towards communism!

Seems like they're already "directing" people toward professions, just most of them they have no chance of being successful at, or earning a satisfactory living...  Perhaps, if they changed their ways just a tad, they might benefit someone besides the student loan lending institutions?

(08-07-2018, 08:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've advocated for such educational changes many times in the past.


Shh, I'm winning them over to the side of big government!

I'm all for guidance counselors and educators encouraging young folks to follow their dreams, but perhaps they need to look closer at the entire individual.  Just because someone can achieve a certain score on a standardized test, does not mean they are cut out for the university path.  Just the same as everyone that doesn't achieve a certain score on a standardized test isn't destined to work lowest common denominator jobs their entire life.  

[BmorePat87]

(08-07-2018, 07:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Don't be so hard on Texas.  If I recall correctly, Texas and Tennessee have been the prime beneficiaries to the exodus of businesses from California in recent years.  Between their sky high taxes, and the sanctuary State policies, they are driving both people and businesses away by the millions.

I was subtly implying that this person, who I see frequently writes OpEd's critical of CA and favoring TX, had an agenda to promote business in TX over CA. No actual hate for the state itself. 

Quote:The $15/hr State wide minimum wage is yet another in a long line of policy failures by California's legislative bodies.  Thanks to those assholes, regular joes all across the nation now have to order by kiosk at McDonalds, if they choose to go inside.  Gee, thanks California..   

Kiosks seem to be the wave of the future unrelated to this law. A lot of places in MD have been shifting away from cashiers to kiosks for years now. It's the natural order of things.

[GMDino]

(08-07-2018, 09:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Unfortunately, the only way I can see this happening is for the government to augment wages. You force the business owner to pay more he/she is going to raise prices. You tax the business owner more he/she is just going to raise prices. 

I suppose there could be tax incentives based on how much above minimum wage your employees make or number of employees per profit margin. I'm just one that believe the free market will bare out. 

Yep...."free market" always "bares it out".

Yep.