$15/hr minimum wage

[XenoMorph]

(08-08-2018, 05:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Labor is only a fraction of the cost of any goods.  And minimum wage increases are only a fraction of the labor cost.  So costs are not going to go up dramatically.  

It blows my mind that people are actually trying to argue that we have to keep working people in poverty so that we can afford hamburgers.

No no no... It blows my mind people try to live off fast food jobs and never seek to better themselves past it and think they should get paid more for it.

Want paid learn a skill.


Cost wont go up dramatically As Places will lower the # of employees to compensate for the increase rates.  Or cut all employee hours to part time

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2018, 05:17 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Cost wont go up dramatically As Places will lower the # of employees to compensate for the increase rates.  Or cut all employee hours to part time

So your theory is that right now all of these places are paying some people to stand around and do nothing?

Not very likely.

[*bfine32*]

(08-08-2018, 05:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Labor is only a fraction of the cost of any goods.  And minimum wage increases are only a fraction of the labor cost.  So costs are not going to go up dramatically.  

It blows my mind that people are actually trying to argue that we have to keep working people in poverty so that we can afford hamburgers.

Your blown mind aside: Who the hell argued we have to keep people in poverty?

I simply stated we must keep 2 and 3rd effects in mind in the post you quoted.

For instance in this very post you say Labor is only a fraction of the cost. Let's understand that material is also another cost.

What's going to happen to the cost of that material if the wages of those that produce/extract/create... that material increases? 

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2018, 05:24 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Your blown mind aside: Who the hell argued we have to keep people in poverty?

If no one can get a raise then a lot of people are going to remain in poverty.

Over 2 thirds of people receiving government assistance are in working families.  Right now you are sending your tax dollars to support these people while many of their employers make record profits.  Personally I am outraged that I ma having to pay out of my pocket to support workers for guys who are making millions.

[*bfine32*]

(08-08-2018, 05:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If no one can get a raise then a lot of people are going to remain in poverty.

Over 2 thirds of people receiving government assistance are in working families.  Right now you are sending your tax dollars to support these people while many of their employers make record profits.  Personally I am outraged that I ma having to pay out of my pocket to support workers for guys who are making millions.

And if we raise everyone's wage then the poverty line will raise along with the price of goods.

I get being mad at the rich, but what are you going to do: 

Force them to raise wages with not raising prices? 

Set a cap on profit margins?

Make every business a profit sharing company? 

Being outraged and hoping for magic is not going to fix it.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The only thing raising minimum wage does is make more people making minimum wage. Businesses aren't going to give someone already making $15.00 an hour the equivalent. Someone who's put in the time and training making $15.00 an hour is now back at the bottom trying to work his way back to where he was.

Plus, if you have a skill in demand companies are going to have to raise the wage to attract those skills. If kids today can make $15.00 and hour at McDonalds, why try and learn a skill that's in demand paying the same?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-07-2018, 10:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I haven't looked at any actual employment data, but everyone I know who went to college has a job and I also know plenty of people who didn't go to college who also have jobs.  And there have been daytime TV ads running for trade schools for decades, so I'm not sure where you get the notion that this country is full of great trade jobs that people are trying to scare teens away from pursuing.

I will say one thing I've noticed is that my pseudo-nephew (yeah, I'll marry my gf eventually...get off my back) is 19 and he went to trade school and everyone else in his class was around my age.  People my age could get jobs out of high school and make enough money to support themselves and a family and have some insurance and so on.  Now that isn't true, so people are having to go back to get skills in order to earn a life that "just plain old working" no longer provides.

What I'm saying is that if going to college these days is tantamount to paying $250,0000 for a degree that will leave you working 16 hours a week at Wal Mart and going to trade school or driving a truck will get you $100k per year then kids will wise up soon enough and the market will right itself.  You can joke that getting a 4-year college degree is "following your dreams" but the real dream is making $80k+ per year when you are 19 years old, so I don't see why arms need to be twisted to lead teens towards those jobs.

Anywho, this thread is about minimum wage and I don't think that is something that applies to people who go to college or go to trade school.  But honestly I'm not deep enough into either side of the political coin to laugh about those dumb dumb conservatives who didn't go to college and work at the local dirt farm for peanuts as they lack the critical thinking skills required to understand why they "ain't rich like Trump."  Nor do I laugh about those smug liberal millennials who spend a quarter of a million dollars on their lesbian interpretive dance dream weaving degrees and then sling Starbucks for a pittance while they smugly burn the American flag.

Purely anecdotal evidence, but when I was in school, we did go to visit a trade school late during my Sophomore year... but to offset that they spent the previous 5 years+ telling us nonstop that we needed to go to college to be successful. How poor we'd be if we didn't go to college, etc.

I have a decent amount of friends who got degrees, but not a ton of them ended up getting jobs that actually pertain to their degree. For the first handful of years especially, there were a lot of pizza delivery/bartender jobs after spending 4 years and a bunch of money.

I don't think trade schools are given their proper positive light because everyone who is teaching you is someone with a college degree, and almost always a masters degree to boot. There's a stigma they create over working with your hands rather than getting "educated".

(08-07-2018, 11:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Raising the minimum is just the first effect. What do you do with the employee that has earned more than the minimum due to seniority ect...? 

You're starting out on fries and make $15/hour. What do you do with the cashier that has been there 1 year and has made a couple extra dollars more than the minimum? 

Yeah, that's a big problem with jumping the minimum wage up any large amount, too. If you're making $15/hr already when the minimum wage is $7.50 or whatever, then you need to get a raise to $30/hr to maintain your gap over minimum wage if it increases to $15/hr, and nobody is going to do that.

It'll crush the middle/lower middle class because 50 weeks a year of 40 hour weeks at $20/hr is $40k. That has decent spending power right now (unless you're living somewhere seriously expensive). If the minimum wage was $15/hr at that same rate, that means the minimum wage folk would be making $30k and suddenly that $40k isn't so decent.

It'd crush all the middle class except for upper middle, so you'd have a tiny upper middle class, the rich folk, and then a huge amount of the new lower class income.

[*Nately120*]

(08-08-2018, 08:00 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Purely anecdotal evidence, but when I was in school, we did go to visit a trade school late during my Sophomore year... but to offset that they spent the previous 5 years+ telling us nonstop that we needed to go to college to be successful. How poor we'd be if we didn't go to college, etc.

I have a decent amount of friends who got degrees, but not a ton of them ended up getting jobs that actually pertain to their degree. For the first handful of years especially, there were a lot of pizza delivery/bartender jobs after spending 4 years and a bunch of money.

I don't think trade schools are given their proper positive light because everyone who is teaching you is someone with a college degree, and almost always a masters degree to boot. There's a stigma they create over working with your hands rather than getting "educated".

Ah, well people I know who went to college either work jobs that require degrees, or they work for their parents' businesses.  I know people who are teachers, doctors, professors, advertising executive types, dentists, child psychologist/therapists and so on.  I went to grad school and had a job in NYC where everyone had a relevant degree and was using it.  And I can only speak for myself, but at no point did I sit around with my educated buddies and rag on how stupid people who go to trade school are.

I just never saw this sort of animosity between people who go to college and people who don't, personally. I will say that I have a friend who, like me, was one of the first people in his family to go to college. My family was supportive and thought it was great and his family laughed at him and asked him why he was afraid of getting a real job. I think this might be a person-by-person basis and not some sort of Sharks vs the Jets scenario.

[GMDino]

[*bfine32*]

(08-08-2018, 09:22 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ah, well people I know who went to college either work jobs that require degrees, or they work for their parents' businesses.  I know people who are teachers, doctors, professors, advertising executive types, dentists, child psychologist/therapists and so on.  I went to grad school and had a job in NYC where everyone had a relevant degree and was using it.  And I can only speak for myself, but at no point did I sit around with my educated buddies and rag on how stupid people who go to trade school are.

I just never saw this sort of animosity between people who go to college and people who don't, personally.

I blame it on The Game of Life. Sure you can take the "short route" and start work immediately as a Janitor, but you're going to be at a disadvantage the rest of your life or you can go the "long route" and go to college but get paid mad loot for being a lawyer. 

[*Nately120*]

(08-08-2018, 09:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I blame it on The Game of Life. Sure you can take the "short route" and start work immediately as a Janitor, but you're going to be at a disadvantage the rest of your life or you can go the "long route" and go to college but get paid mad loot for being a lawyer. 

The Game of Life came out in the 1960s; back when working and going to college were actually both rewarding endeavors in their own way and our country had a monetary system that wasn't paper-based and amazingly inflation-prone.  Oh well.

[fredtoast]

(08-08-2018, 05:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And if we raise everyone's wage then the poverty line will raise along with the price of goods.

A raise in minimum wage will have a very small effect on the price of goods, and that increase in the price of goods will be spread out over the entire 100% of the population.

(08-08-2018, 05:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Being outraged and hoping for magic is not going to fix it.

Was our economy based on "magic" in the 50's and 60's where we had a much higher tax rate at the top and much less wealth disparity?

[GMDino]

[Beaker]

(08-08-2018, 09:24 PM)GMDino Wrote:

And that minimum wage jobs are not the jobs intended for you to make a living, they are the ones where you start out.

[Belsnickel]

(08-14-2018, 05:59 AM)Beaker Wrote: And that minimum wage jobs are not the jobs intended for you to make a living, they are the ones where you start out.

I disagree with this. If you work a full-time job, you should be able to afford to live. Having a job is your contribution to society/the economy for which you are compensated with the resources to live.

[GMDino]

http://livingwage.mit.edu/

[GMDino]

(08-14-2018, 09:04 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I disagree with this. If you work a full-time job, you should be able to afford to live. Having a job is your contribution to society/the economy for which you are compensated with the resources to live.

Society: "Get out of your parents house and get on your own feet ya bum!"

Individual: (Gets job working 40 hours a week for  minimum wage.)

"I can't afford to eat and pay rent."

Society: "Work harder ya bum!"

Individual: (Works TWO jobs, full time, but they still only pay minimum wage.)

"Is there any way these jobs can pay more?"

Society: "Why do you have capitalism?!?! If want a better paying job look for one!  Or got o school and better yourself ya bum!"

Individual: "I am.  But I work 16 hours a day (plus transportation) and I can barely get by now.  How can I afford school?"

Society: "Work harder!"

........end scene.....

[Benton]

(08-08-2018, 09:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I blame it on The Game of Life. Sure you can take the "short route" and start work immediately as a Janitor, but you're going to be at a disadvantage the rest of your life or you can go the "long route" and go to college but get paid mad loot for being a lawyer. 

Unfortunately a lot of people feel this way. That’s why we’ve got lots of folks with comparative dance study degrees making next to nothing with six figure student debt, but it takes 10 days before the hearing and air guy can get you into his schedule.

[fredtoast]

(08-14-2018, 05:59 AM)Beaker Wrote: And that minimum wage jobs are not the jobs intended for you to make a living, they are the ones where you start out.

But we are constantly going to have a certain percentage of our workers making minimum wage.  These people have no choice and are forced to "make a living" at a minimum wage job until they can move up.

I can understand when certain people try to demonize the poor that refuse to work, but I can not believe the people who don't give a crap about people working full time in a portion of our economy that will never go away no matter how hard people work.

"Screw the working poor.  They deserve to suffer while the employers make record profits from the labor of the poor."

[*PhilHos*]

(08-14-2018, 04:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But we are constantly going to have a certain percentage of our workers making minimum wage.  

Yes, but the people EXPECTED to be making minimum wage are teens just starting their first job and senior citizens looking to do something instead of sitting around doing nothing. Instead of raising minimum wage, I think the focus should be on those who are trying to make a living off minimum wage and how they can be paid better (like through job training programs for better paying jobs, etc)