150 Armed Militia Members Take Over Federal Building

[BmorePat87]

(01-29-2016, 10:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: From what we see in the video I will say it was justified if the first shots came after he reached for his waist band.

Even if the first shot occurred before he reached for his waist band he has no one to blame but himself, but the justification of lethal force can be called into question. 

Thanks, I was hoping we could get back to the issue, so I appreciate you breaking down your thoughts on it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(01-29-2016, 02:02 PM)Benton Wrote: You guys waste so much time. Just leave it on. It's only 30-40 seconds anyway, not worth the effort.

I'm way more of an ass man myself and I couldn't disagree more.

(01-29-2016, 08:30 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Knifes are for cheaters.

Both amusing and disturbing.

[Belsnickel]

(01-29-2016, 10:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: From what we see in the video I will say it was justified if the first shots came after he reached for his waist band.

Even if the first shot occurred before he reached for his waist band he has no one to blame but himself, but the justification of lethal force can be called into question. 

Honestly, I'm surprised he made it out of the vehicle. He drove pretty much straight at the one officer/agent. I would not have been surprised if shots had been fired at that point. The sad thing about this to me is that it is doubtful he had any intention of actually harming anyone. From some of his earlier statements he seemed to have a wish for suicide by cop.

[*bfine32*]

(01-29-2016, 11:31 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Honestly, I'm surprised he made it out of the vehicle. He drove pretty much straight at the one officer/agent. I would not have been surprised if shots had been fired at that point. The sad thing about this to me is that it is doubtful he had any intention of actually harming anyone. From some of his earlier statements he seemed to have a wish for suicide by cop.

Go back and look at the 5:53 point of the video and tell me does he drive toward the officer/agent or does the officer/agent go toward  him?
Answer that honestly and I will tell you that truck should have been so full of bullets holes that the driver should not have been able to do anything except bleed out.  

[Bengalzona]

[Mike M (the other one)]

(01-30-2016, 02:08 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Go back and look at the 5:53 point of the video and tell me does he drive toward the officer/agent or does the officer/agent go toward  him?
Answer that honestly and I will tell you that truck should have been so full of bullets holes that the driver should not have been able to do anything except bleed out.  

finally got a chance to watch it.

The agent moves towards the vehicle as it's flying through the snow, instead of back behind the other vehicles where it is more safe.
You can also tell that LaVoy is out of the vehicle clearly with his hands up in the air before anyone has fired any shots at him.
LaVoy only reaches to his left side with his right hand because he's been hit at this point. I believe there was about a total of 6-8 shots that hit him.

How many right handed people carry a gun in their left side? Besides, you can see his hand dips, and he turns to the left while he starts losing his balance almost all at the same time. That tells me he was clearly shot and reacting naturally to it. He also tried to get his arms back up again, but must've been shot again as his hands move towards the middle of his stomach where he probably was shot again. At no time did he ever produce a weapon making it justifiable.

The usage of lethal force was unjustified to me. He had already gotten out and given up with hands clearly up and out away from his body. Apparently the guy that got hit by the truck wanted a piece of him and started shooting, he even went so far as to flip off the dead body after it was all over.

I am waiting on the autopsy report for now.

[*bfine32*]

(02-03-2016, 10:49 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: finally got a chance to watch it.

The agent moves towards the vehicle as it's flying through the snow, instead of back behind the other vehicles where it is more safe.
You can also tell that LaVoy is out of the vehicle clearly with his hands up in the air before anyone has fired any shots at him.
LaVoy only reaches to his left side with his right hand because he's been hit at this point. I believe there was about a total of 6-8 shots that hit him.

How many right handed people carry a gun in their left side? Besides, you can see his hand dips, and he turns to the left while he starts losing his balance almost all at the same time. That tells me he was clearly shot and reacting naturally to it. He also tried to get his arms back up again, but must've been shot again as his hands move towards the middle of his stomach where he probably was shot again. At no time did he ever produce a weapon making it justifiable.

The usage of lethal force was unjustified to me. He had already gotten out and given up with hands clearly up and out away from his body. Apparently the guy that got hit by the truck wanted a piece of him and started shooting, he even went so far as to flip off the dead body after it was all over.

I am waiting on the autopsy report for now.

That is what I saw and why I disputed the whole "he tried to run over the officer" theme. 

It has been pointed out by one who should know and many who do not have a clue that the tactics I would  have employed differ from what stateside LEOs employ. 

If that vehicle would have shown no signs of slowing, it would have been riddled with bullet holes starting at about 50 meters out and nobody would have broke cover. The whole running toward the vehicle thing would have been a "no-no" but like I've said: my experience comes against terrorists whose motive is often to sacrifice themselves in  order to blow you up. The Oregon Terrorists are  foreign to me. 

EDIT: I also re-watched the video and it looked like the LEOs placed the road block just after a curve and I have no idea if the deep snow made the road block not visible from a distance.

I understand there are times you want the road block to not be visible from a great distance, but that just looked ridiculous.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-03-2016, 10:49 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: At no time did he ever produce a weapon making it justifiable.

I won't get into your erroneous interpretation of the video.  I will point out that under no circumstances does law enforcement need to let you actually draw the weapon you're reaching for before shooting you.

Quote:The usage of lethal force was unjustified to me. He had already gotten out and given up with hands clearly up and out away from his body.

 
Yeah, he started with his hands up, then his hands weren't up.  We already know you, through some form of omniscience, have determined, definitively, why he lowered his hands.  I'm not so sure.

Quote:Apparently the guy that got hit by the truck wanted a piece of him and started shooting, he even went so far as to flip off the dead body after it was all over.

Wow, your eyesight is amazing.  The minute level of detail you can discern from this video is impressive to say the least.

Quote:I am waiting on the autopsy report for now.

What do you expect it to tell you, that the guy was shot?  "Listening" to lay people pontificate on these kind of things is the fifth tier of hell to me.  Quite sincerely.

[Vas Deferens]

Have no idea what happened there based on a 1500 foot view with no sound. I do know there is no way an FBI investigation is going to come up against the LEO. An individual who had such intimate knowledge of the wrongdoings of the government should have known better than to run in the first place imho. Doesn't excuse someone who may or may not have been killed indiscriminately, but this is what this guy was talking about prior to the traffic stop. Stay in the ***** car cowboy.

[Rotobeast]

I imagine the body camera footage will not be released for some time, eh ?

[GMDino]

http://crooksandliars.com/2016/02/indictment-slaps-bundy-gang-16-felonies

[/url]

Quote:New Federal Indictment Slaps Bundy Gang With 16 Felony Charges - Each


By Karoli Kuns
4987
2/17/16 9:35pm

Republish
Reprint
[url=http://license.icopyright.net/rights/oneButtonTag.act?tag=3.16035?icx_id=116944]
It may have been a long time coming, but good things are often worth the wait. The now-unsealed indictment against Ammon Bundy, Cliven Bundy, Ryan Bundy, Ryan Payne and Pete Santilli is one of those good things, and it appears this indictment concerns the 2014 standoff in Nevada. We have yet to see the full set of charges relating to the Malheur Reserve.

Although all but Cliven Bundy were initially charged with one felony when they were arrested, the indictment lays out many more charges against them -- 16 in all for each of them.

It begins by describing the conspiracy as a "massive armed assault against federal enforcement officers that occurred in and around Bunkerville, Nevada, on April 12, 2014."

"The defendants planned, organized and led the assault in order to extort officers in to abandoning approximately 400 head of cattle that were in their lawful care and custody," the indictment alleges. "In addition to conspiring among themselves to plan and execute these crimes, the defendants recruited, organized and led hundreds of others in using armed force against law enforcement officers to achieve their criminal objectives."

And that's just the beginning. The language of the indictment is damning, through and through. They're shown as the liars and thugs they are. It's also a description of a harrowing encounter with lawless thugs and thieves.

"The 200 Followers in the wash included a significant number brandishing or raising their assault rifles in front of the officers. Some of these gunmen took tactically superior positions on high ground, while others moved in and out of the crowd, masking their movements behind other unarmed Followers. The most immediate threat to the officers came from the bridges where gunmen took sniper positions behind concrete barriers, their assault rifles aimed directly at the officers below."

Like this:
[img=981x1042]http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/uploader/image/2014/04/18/bundysniper.jpg[/img]
The entire group is charged with the following:

• 1 count of conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States
• 1 count of conspiracy to impede or injure a federal officer
• 4 counts of using and carrying a firearm in relation to a crime of violence
• 2 counts of assault on a federal officer
• 2 counts of threatening a federal law enforcement officer
• 3 counts of obstruction of the due administration of justice
• 2 counts of interference with interstate commerce by extortion
• 1 count of interstate travel in aid of extortion
  

According to OPB, these guys can expect to spend the rest of their lives in prison if convicted.

Quote:The maximum penalties for each of the charges against the men range from five to 20 years in prison. Each charge carries a maximum fine of $250,000.

Read the full indictment below.
Cliven Bundy et al Indictment

[Mike M (the other one)]

(02-04-2016, 12:11 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I won't get into your erroneous interpretation of the video.  I will point out that under no circumstances does law enforcement need to let you actually draw the weapon you're reaching for before shooting you.


 
Yeah, he started with his hands up, then his hands weren't up.  We already know you, through some form of omniscience, have determined, definitively, why he lowered his hands.  I'm not so sure.



Wow, your eyesight is amazing.  The minute level of detail you can discern from this video is impressive to say the least.



What do you expect it to tell you, that the guy was shot?  "Listening" to lay people pontificate on these kind of things is the fifth tier of hell to me.  Quite sincerely.

Just wanted to bring this up with out opening a new one.

He was shot multiple times in the BACK.

http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/03/08/Finicum%20autopsy%20report.pdf

We don't know the order of the shots, but we do know from the Video that he lowered his hands 3 times.
They also released Shauna Cox's cell phone video. More shots were also fired, but not all hit Lavoy.

We also have an agent lying about the number of times he fired, and he claims he didn't shoot, but chamber missing 2 bullets.
4 other FBI Agents are also being investigated for a potential cover up.

Seriously, a month later and they still don't know if he fired or not?? Makes no sense to me.

Lavoy's wife is filing a Wrongful Death Lawsuit.

[*bfine32*]

(03-14-2016, 03:42 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Just wanted to bring this up with out opening a new one.

He was shot multiple times in the BACK.

http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/03/08/Finicum%20autopsy%20report.pdf

We don't know the order of the shots, but we do know from the Video that he lowered his hands 3 times.
They also released Shauna Cox's cell phone video. More shots were also fired, but not all hit Lavoy.

We also have an agent lying about the number of times he fired, and he claims he didn't shoot, but chamber missing 2 bullets.
4 other FBI Agents are also being investigated for a potential cover up.

Seriously, a month later and they still don't know if he fired or not?? Makes no sense to me.

Lavoy's wife is filing a Wrongful Death Lawsuit.

Well he was a terrorist, so what do you expect? Ok, on the real.

As I said when the tragedy first happened; he only has himself to blame for being in the situation.

I will say that if details come out and it was deemed that dude was shot while trying to comply with the officer's orders then there may be another event and this time it may be terrorism; as these are the actions by government that fuel them. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-14-2016, 03:42 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Just wanted to bring this up with out opening a new one.

He was shot multiple times in the BACK.

http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/03/08/Finicum%20autopsy%20report.pdf

Yeah, the officer shooting you doesn't have to be the one in immediate danger.  If you pose a deadly threat to any person law enforcement can shoot you.  They don't have to wait for you to turn around to do it.

Quote:We don't know the order of the shots, but we do know from the Video that he lowered his hands 3 times.
They also released Shauna Cox's cell phone video. More shots were also fired, but not all hit Lavoy.

No one has a 100% accuracy rate.

Quote:We also have an agent lying about the number of times he fired, and he claims he didn't shoot, but chamber missing 2 bullets.
4 other FBI Agents are also being investigated for a potential cover up.

Seriously, a month later and they still don't know if he fired or not?? Makes no sense to me.

Source please.  Regardless it sure looked like a good shoot of a known to be armed felon to me.

Quote:Lavoy's wife is filing a Wrongful Death Lawsuit.

Good luck with that lawsuit.  The people should counter-sue for every dime that the taxpayers had to spend to deal with these asshats.

[Mike M (the other one)]

http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-hole-in-roof-which-brought-down-fbi.html?m=1

In the confusion of those hours after the shooting, the Deschutes County investigators immediately became aware of something, which we may never ascertain how, but in this system of checks and balances, they accounted for every shot fired from Oregon State Police. Somewhere in this, which I will conclude, one or several of the State Police of Oregon in their statements recorded that they had heard the FBI firing.

I am going to give you an exclusive here which no one else will enlighten you on. When you watch the Shawna Cox iphone recording, you jump after LaVoy Finicum exits the vehicle with his arms raised in surrender, as immediately the back window explodes and the peoples scream.
We KNOW the Oregon State Police were firing AR 15 .223 caliber military rounds. For those who do not know the .223, it is small round and it snaps, so when you hear it, just like pistol rounds, it is distinct.


As you can see, this rifle is 7.62 NATO or .308, and 300 Winchester Magnum. That is what the FBI was firing at LaVoy Finicum, and these are the difference between a firecracker and a cherry bomb going off. The .223 would not have blew out that window as it did, fired through the roof of that pick up from above. This was a 30 caliber cannon going off, and that is why everyone knew the FBI was blasting away as it was so loud.

The vehicle was stopped, so this was not shooting out tires or shooting out the engine block. This was a trained sniper who fired into a vehicle with passengers, two of them women, and this was a murderous shot, as the agent could not see what he was firing at. It was a deliberate act to murder the other male in the Finicum vehicle.

That is where Deschutes County is commended, because in all of this, their forensic team went over the Finicum pick up and they found that big hole in the roof which blew out that window. They immediately knew someone was lying and who it was, because Oregon State Police was firing .223 rounds and this was a 30 caliber hole which blew through the vehicle with an armor piercing round.

That is why Deschutes County investigators kept coming back and hammering the FBI agents, as they knew the FBI was lying to them, and that is what broke the FBI to ask for legal counsel.

The reality is, if the HRT shooter had not shot the vehicle, this would have never been known. In connect the dots, I believe the FBI was under orders and had given orders to flush LaVoy Finicum, so the police could assassinate those people in the vehicle when they exited the vehicle.
Those FBI shots were by design to get the Finicum group to start firing, so there would be justifiable cause to murder them all.

It makes a great deal more sense, why one can hear LaVoy Finicum scolding the law enforcement there to shoot if they intended to, because he had been fired upon when he drove off to find the Sheriff, he was fired upon by Oregon State Police at the blind roadblock ambush, and then when Mr. Finicum exited the vehicle to save the occupants as he had just saved the Oregon State Police and FBI by not crashing into them, he immediately heard that massive 30 caliber shot blowing by him, and shattering his back window.

We do not know when the second shot was fired by the FBI, if it was as trigger flinch shot to get Oregon State Police to begin shooting in response, or if it was at the same time as the window being shattered, but we do know that LaVoy Finicum knew blessed certain, that he was being targeted for murder.

If Inspector General Horowitz does his job in this investigation, and the charges match the piled up charges against the Bundy Patriots, then these 5 FBI HRT assassins will be charged with the following.


1 count reckless homicide
4 counts attempted homicide
5 counts lying to Deschutes County investigators
5 counts impeding a criminal investigation.
5 counts of conspiracy to prevent law enforcement officers from doing their job (That is what the Bundy Group is being charged with.)
5 counts of conspiracy to cover up the original crime
2 counts reckless discharge of a weapon with intent to do bodily harm.

This does not include the lying, smearing, the propaganda which Gregory Bretzing engaged in, using his two moles to lie to the American public over this event, and to stampede the Patriots off of Malheur which endangered the entire region as 200 armed Citizens were fleeing for their lives.

This does not include the tasering of LaVoy Finicum, which is proof positive that he was murdered. In Mr. Finicum was either tasered before he was shot, meaning he should not have been shot, and meaning he did not produce a weapon to defend himself, but continued to surrender, or it means Mr. Finicum after he was shot 3 times, fighting for his life on the snow, was then tasered.

If the tasering occurred after Mr. Finicum was shot and incapacitated, and he should been receiving medical care to save his life, then the charge is Conspiracy to commit murder, and the charge elevates to torture and Murder in the First Degree with special circumstances.

[Belsnickel]

I see here a lot of unsupported conjecture and assumptions. The source is a blogger and they are obviously biased. I would like to see the evidence laid out in a more factual manner if I am to take any of these sorts of allegations seriously.

[*bfine32*]

(03-16-2016, 08:55 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I see here a lot of unsupported conjecture and assumptions. The source is a blogger and they are obviously biased. I would like to see the evidence laid out in a more factual manner if I am to take any of these sorts of allegations seriously.

But a reporter stating that in a private cell phone conversation that one of the occupiers told him he was ready to kill or be killed was enough for many to take seriously. Why trust one over the other?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-16-2016, 09:42 AM)bfine32 Wrote: But a reporter stating that in a private cell phone conversation that one of the occupiers told him he was ready to kill or be killed was enough for many to take seriously. Why trust one over the other?

Because one has a clear agenda and the other does not?  What possible reason would the reporter have to lie as the statement was made well in advance of the shooting.  I suppose you'll come back with clickbait, which is possible albeit unlikely.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-16-2016, 08:55 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I see here a lot of unsupported conjecture and assumptions. The source is a blogger and they are obviously biased. I would like to see the evidence laid out in a more factual manner if I am to take any of these sorts of allegations seriously.

I get that, I'm just showing the reason why the FBI is under investigation for lying about their involvement in the Shootings.
Here's non-blogs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/09/us/oregon-lavoy-finicum-shooting.html?_r=0

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/03/08/authorities-to-release-results-of-investigation-into-lavoy-finicum-shooting/

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_fbi_agents_und.html


Still waiting on the answers about the 2 other shots that were fired by the FBI and where is their body cams and audio? 

[*bfine32*]

(03-16-2016, 11:21 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Because one has a clear agenda and the other does not?  What possible reason would the reporter have to lie as the statement was made well in advance of the shooting.  I suppose you'll come back with clickbait, which is possible albeit unlikely.

Because no one else had a statement issuing a threat; that was hot, why do you think it got so much play?  As soon as that reporter said he was told that over the phone, every source ran with it in quotes. Perhaps the reporter did not lie; perhaps it was entirely true that what he was reported was what was said. Conersely, what if he miss quoted and the person on the other end simply said we are prepared to die for our cause or the reporter decided to embelish just a tad? You find it unlikely that a reporter would sensationalize a story; I do not.

Perhaps the reporter had no agenda (perhaps); but do you think those that took the unsubstantiated words from the reporter as a bona fide threat had an agenda?