2020 Election

[CJD]

(11-05-2020, 11:22 AM)Au165 Wrote:

John McCain’s concession speech from the 2008 election. Listen when the crowd “boos” Obama, he says stop and settles them. America, you are unrecognisable.#ElectionResults2020

pic.twitter.com/HbU9oVV3J3

— Dr. Jennifer Cassidy (@OxfordDiplomat) November 5, 2020

What the hell happened to us? We are so far removed from this, it really is sad to see.

I mean...are we so far removed from that?

The people were booing Obama.

They didn't change. They are who they've always been.

What did change was who they nominated. They saw Cruz, Rubio, Jeb and the others that would have been similar to McCain in this clip and said "Nope. They're bitches. We want the braggart and racist who will lie, cheat and steal to get what he wants regardless of the consequences."

I have a Republican friend who is convinced that Trump is an aberration. Republicans, on the whole, don't like him. They just feel no choice but to vote for him and in 2024, they're going to revert back to the McCain ideology.

But this is not an aberration. This is who Republicans are. This is who they've always been. 2016 wasn't a fluke it was a precedent. One that we are seeing in 2020 again, to an even larger extent in many cases.

Sure, there may be the occasional principled conservative here and there. Some of them may be on this forum. But the vast majority of them looked at Trump and said "Yep. This is exactly who we want representing us."

And that should concern every sane person in this country.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(11-05-2020, 11:31 AM)GMDino Wrote:

Bold move when you are losing https://t.co/sBT4z6l91r

— MeidasTouch.com (@MeidasTouch) November 5, 2020

 

Republicans must be so proud.

[*michaelsean*]

(11-05-2020, 11:32 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I mean...are we so far removed from that?

The people were booing Obama.

They didn't change. They are who they've always been.

What did change was who they nominated. They saw Cruz, Rubio, Jeb and the others that would have been similar to McCain in this clip and said "Nope. They're bitches. We want the braggart and racist who will lie, cheat and steal to get what he wants regardless of the consequences."

I have a Republican friend who is convinced that Trump is an aberration. Republicans, on the whole, don't like him. They just feel no choice but to vote for him and in 2024, they're going to revert back to the McCain ideology.

But this is not an aberration. This is who Republicans are. This is who they've always been. 2016 wasn't a fluke it was a precedent. One that we are seeing in 2020 again, to an even larger extent in many cases.

Sure, there may be the occasional principled conservative here and there. Some of them may be on this forum. But the vast majority of them looked at Trump and said "Yep. This is exactly who we want representing us."

And that should concern every sane person in this country.

Do we think there were no boos at Hillary’s concession speech? I don’t think I heard it, but I have to imagine there were some. Probably at Gore’s and Kerry’s as well.

[Big Boss]

(11-05-2020, 11:31 AM)GMDino Wrote:

Bold move when you are losing https://t.co/sBT4z6l91r

— MeidasTouch.com (@MeidasTouch) November 5, 2020

 

Now he's suing Nevada, baselessly claiming 10,000 ballots were cast by people who don't live in the state.

Someone remind me how many votes Trump is behind by in Nevada.

[*michaelsean*]

(11-05-2020, 11:40 AM)Big Boss Wrote: Now he's suing Nevada, claiming 10,000 ballots were cast by people who don't live in the state.

Someone remind me how many votes Trump is behind by in Nevada.

8000

[Au165]

(11-05-2020, 11:32 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I mean...are we so far removed from that?

The people were booing Obama.

They didn't change. They are who they've always been.

What did change was who they nominated. They saw Cruz, Rubio, Jeb and the others that would have been similar to McCain in this clip and said "Nope. They're bitches. We want the braggart and racist who will lie, cheat and steal to get what he wants regardless of the consequences."

I have a Republican friend who is convinced that Trump is an aberration. Republicans, on the whole, don't like him. They just feel no choice but to vote for him and in 2024, they're going to revert back to the McCain ideology.

But this is not an aberration. This is who Republicans are. This is who they've always been. 2016 wasn't a fluke it was a precedent. One that we are seeing in 2020 again, to an even larger extent in many cases.

Sure, there may be the occasional principled conservative here and there. Some of them may be on this forum. But the vast majority of them looked at Trump and said "Yep. This is exactly who we want representing us."

And that should concern every sane person in this country.

This seems more like a revisionist view of the party to fit your personal narrative of what you like to believe. The country/Republican party has never been like what we see today, which is why I have said multiple times in this thread that I don't think the party as we know it survives. A splintering is coming with the QAnon/Trump group and the traditionalists. 

[*bfine32*]

(11-05-2020, 11:32 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I mean...are we so far removed from that?

The people were booing Obama.

They didn't change. They are who they've always been.

What did change was who they nominated. They saw Cruz, Rubio, Jeb and the others that would have been similar to McCain in this clip and said "Nope. They're bitches. We want the braggart and racist who will lie, cheat and steal to get what he wants regardless of the consequences."

I have a Republican friend who is convinced that Trump is an aberration. Republicans, on the whole, don't like him. They just feel no choice but to vote for him and in 2024, they're going to revert back to the McCain ideology.

But this is not an aberration. This is who Republicans are. This is who they've always been. 2016 wasn't a fluke it was a precedent. One that we are seeing in 2020 again, to an even larger extent in many cases.

Sure, there may be the occasional principled conservative here and there. Some of them may be on this forum. But the vast majority of them looked at Trump and said "Yep. This is exactly who we want representing us."

And that should concern every sane person in this country.

You've got your biased view of why civility left and I've got mine. I always use example of the first SOU addresses after the House flipped given by Bush Jr and Obama.

Bush stated: It was his High honor to speak the words Madam Speaker

Obama stated: nanni nanni boo boo...I won

[CJD]

(11-05-2020, 11:38 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Do we think there were no boos at Hillary’s concession speech?  I don’t think I heard it, but I have to imagine there were some. Probably at Gore’s and Kerry’s as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khK9fIgoNjQ&ab_channel=ABCNews

There was a lot of applause, a lot of "I love you"s but I didn't hear any booing.

Meanwhile, in 2020, there are pro Trump protesters demanding Pennsylvania stop counting votes while there are also pro Trump protesters demanding that Arizona more quickly count their votes.

I don't think this is a "both sides" issue. Even if it was, that doesn't mean the Trump supporters are any better (aka, whataboutism).

[CJD]

(11-05-2020, 11:45 AM)Au165 Wrote: This seems more like a revisionist view of the party to fit your personal narrative of what you like to believe. The country/Republican party has never been like what we see today, which is why I have said multiple times in this thread that I don't think the party as we know it survives. A splintering is coming with the QAnon/Trump group and the traditionalists. 

I hope you're right.

I definitely think they've gotten worse over the years, but I don't think they've fundamentally changed.

[*michaelsean*]

(11-05-2020, 11:58 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khK9fIgoNjQ&ab_channel=ABCNews

There was a lot of applause, a lot of "I love you"s but I didn't hear any booing.

Meanwhile, in 2020, there are pro Trump protesters demanding Pennsylvania stop counting votes while there are also pro Trump protesters demanding that Arizona more quickly count their votes.

I don't think this is a "both sides" issue. Even if it was, that doesn't mean the Trump supporters are any better (aka, whataboutism).

It’s not whataboutism if it happened (which I don’t know in any of those occasions) and the way you went on to describe the Republican Party based on its occurrence.

[Au165]

(11-05-2020, 11:59 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I hope you're right.

I definitely think they've gotten worse over the years, but I don't think they've fundamentally changed.

I don't remember them ever believing before that "Democrats are socialists who we need to take up arms against to protect our way of life". They disagreed with their views but the mobilization to violence and vitriol is a new phenomenon, but I am not sure it is relegated simply to Republicans, it is just more noticeable in the current situation.

[CJD]

(11-05-2020, 12:02 PM)michaelsean Wrote: It’s not whataboutism if it happened (which I don’t know in any of those occasions) and the way you went on to describe the Republican Party based on its occurrence.

I may have misunderstood your post. I said Republicans chose this man and support him. They are not bound to him unwillingly. This is who they are and who they will likely continue to be. And that should concern everyone.

You said the Democrats probably booed at Clinton's concession speech (which I showed you they did not.)

Were you not redirecting to try and create a false equivalency?

[*michaelsean*]

(11-05-2020, 12:07 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I may have misunderstood your post. I said Republicans chose this man and support him. They are not bound to him unwillingly. This is who they are and who they will likely continue to be. And that should concern everyone.

You said the Democrats probably booed at Clinton's concession speech (which I showed you they did not.)

Were you not redirecting to try and create a false equivalency?

What I’m saying is it’s not whataboutism if it had happened which you showed it didn’t at her speech. (I didn’t actually listen, I take your word for it. )

[CJD]

(11-05-2020, 12:05 PM)Au165 Wrote: I don't remember them ever believing before that "Democrats are socialists who we need to take up arms against to protect our way of life". They disagreed with their views but the mobilization to violence and vitriol is a new phenomenon, but I am not sure it is relegated simply to Republicans, it is just more noticeable in the current situation.

The violence, while not really new (as right wing violence has been present in recent decades and especially in the last few years), has definitely ramped up to some pretty insane levels. But they've been calling Democrats socialists for ages. 

I think social media has been a major cause of these things. Sure, Reagan could call Democrats socialists or decry welfare as anti-American or whatever, but there wasn't really any way for his people to discuss and scare and amp each other up the way they do now on the internet.

Facebook is well known for creating bubbles. So if you are a right winger and all you hear is how Democrats are socialists and are trying to destroy America, you are more likely to become violent and dangerous. There is the commonly referred to "Alt-Right Pipeline" (also called the Pewdiepie Pipeline) that uses edgy or dark humor to, via suggested video algorithms, lead young youtube viewers towards radical right wingers that only further this alarm.

Of course, I may be wrong. Maybe this is unique to Trump and it's a new thing and once he leaves, we'll all be happy again.

But I'm struggling to see that happening, even if approached optimistically.

[CJD]

(11-05-2020, 12:10 PM)michaelsean Wrote: What I’m saying is it’s not whataboutism if it had happened which you showed it didn’t at her speech. (I didn’t actually listen, I take your word for it. )

Oh okay, I got it now. Thanks :)

[Arturo Bandini]

(11-05-2020, 12:07 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I may have misunderstood your post. I said Republicans chose this man and support him. They are not bound to him unwillingly. This is who they are and who they will likely continue to be. And that should concern everyone.

You said the Democrats probably booed at Clinton's concession speech (which I showed you they did not.)

Were you not redirecting to try and create a false equivalency?

Actually not all of them.

If Biden is elected and he will, he owes one to #RepublicansForBiden who might be not as known as Trump's valets as well as be anonymous but without them, the change wouldn't have been possible.

[Au165]

(11-05-2020, 12:18 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The violence, while not really new (as right wing violence has been present in recent decades and especially in the last few years), has definitely ramped up to some pretty insane levels. But they've been calling Democrats socialists for ages. 

I think social media has been a major cause of these things. Sure, Reagan could call Democrats socialists or decry welfare as anti-American or whatever, but there wasn't really any way for his people to discuss and scare and amp each other up the way they do now on the internet.

Facebook is well known for creating bubbles. So if you are a right winger and all you hear is how Democrats are socialists and are trying to destroy America, you are more likely to become violent and dangerous. There is the commonly referred to "Alt-Right Pipeline" (also called the Pewdiepie Pipeline) that uses edgy or dark humor to, via suggested video algorithms, lead young youtube viewers towards radical right wingers that only further this alarm.

Of course, I may be wrong. Maybe this is unique to Trump and it's a new thing and once he leaves, we'll all be happy again.

But I'm struggling to see that happening, even if approached optimistically.

Using "Right-wing violence" as some sort of indicator for a party of over 50 Million (when there are less than 20 incidents in any year of right-wing violence) is disingenuous. Again, calling them socialists AND asking them to take arms against them is a new and scary phenomenon. It is like Democrats calling them racists AND saying you should use violence to remove them.

Social media has definitely shaped the current political climate and for the worse at that. If you have ever been with a group of friends out, you will know that when a bunch of people egg you on you will do stupid crap. Now with social media, you can essentially get egged on 24/7 depending on the way you have curated your experience. That said, that doesn't mean only Republicans fall into these echo chambers or their dangers, and that is where it gets dangerous to use sweeping generalizations. For instance, there are plenty of accounts of democrats attacking Trump supporters because they are also convinced that to support him is to "Hate America".

I am not one who supports the "both sides do it thing", in fact, I do believe the Republicans currently are at a more ratcheted up level with rhetoric and violence, and it is a direct result of selling their soul to Trump. I do however understand how easily in this climate it is for things to shift quickly and see more "Left Wing" violence, especially if for instance the Election swung back to Trump. We need to get control of people, which is a hard thing to do. We need to re-ground them in reality, but I think it's pretty obvious now that for many reality is whatever they have shaped it to be in their online day to day life.

I'd just point out, I don't really classify myself in any party. When I first started voting I was probably a Republican because that's what my whole family was and as I have gotten more affluent I have begun voting more liberal. I have voted for Republican and Democratic presidents, this year I voted for Biden but that doesn't mean he was a great choice either. I think the idea of "party" is tribal and is in the end the thing that has really gotten us to this point, social media helps but tribalism is fanatical and dangerous.

[Dill]

(11-05-2020, 11:52 AM)bfine32 Wrote: You've got your biased view of why civility left and I've got mine. I always use example of the first SOU addresses after the House flipped given by Bush Jr and Obama.

Bush stated: It was his High honor to speak the words Madam Speaker

Obama stated: nanni nanni boo boo...I won

The speech of US Party leaders constitutes a factual record in the US, doesn't it? 

It is set down in newspaper archives and the Congressional Record.

We can also look at the history of news organizations--the record of how their editors, reporters and commentators have publicly maintained norms of civility (not to mention journalistic standards) or undermined them in their daily presentation. That presentation also becomes fixed as public record. 

If we can agree on what counts as "civility" and what counts as violation of said civility, 

then we should be able to point to a "before" and an "after" in these public records, and a "first time." 

And to identify clearly which individuals, and what actions and party/voter support for such actions, have primarily degraded norms of civility to current Trump levels. 

We can do that if we want to. 

Or we can pick and compare the speeches that fit our "agendas" and "narratives,"  

and declare that is what everyone else is doing too.

[CJD]

(11-05-2020, 12:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: Using "Right-wing violence" as some sort of indicator for a party of over 50 Million (when there are less than 20 incidents in any year of right-wing violence) is disingenuous. Again, calling them socialists AND asking them to take arms against them is a new and scary phenomenon. It is like Democrats calling them racists AND saying you should use violence to remove them.

Social media has definitely shaped the current political climate and for the worse at that. If you have ever been with a group of friends out, you will know that when a bunch of people egg you on you will do stupid crap. Now with social media, you can essentially get egged on 24/7 depending on the way you have curated your experience. That said, that doesn't mean only Republicans fall into these echo chambers or their dangers, and that is where it gets dangerous to use sweeping generalizations. For instance, there are plenty of accounts of democrats attacking Trump supporters because they are also convinced that to support him is to "Hate America".

I am not one who supports the "both sides do it thing", in fact, I do believe the Republicans currently are at a more ratcheted up level with rhetoric and violence, and it is a direct result of selling their soul to Trump. I do however understand how easily in this climate it is for things to shift quickly and see more "Left Wing" violence, especially if for instance the Election swung back to Trump. We need to get control of people, which is a hard thing to do. We need to re-ground them in reality, but I think it's pretty obvious now that for many reality is whatever they have shaped it to be in their online day to day life.

I'd just point out, I don't really classify myself in any party. When I first started voting I was probably a Republican because that's what my whole family was and as I have gotten more affluent I have begun voting more liberal. I have voted for Republican and Democratic presidents, this year I voted for Biden but that doesn't mean he was a great choice either. I think the idea of "party" is tribal and is in the end the thing that has really gotten us to this point, social media helps but tribalism is fanatical and dangerous.

I would never blame Republicans for the right wing violence that occurred before Donald Trump. That would be disingenuous. But you can't deny that Trump has been one of the people egging his supporters on. From telling police to not be too nice to suspects when putting them in a car all the way to praising the guys who tailed and attempted to get the Biden bus to pull over and calling Kyle Rittenhouse a patriot (or whatever he said, he endorsed what he did), Trump has a direct hand in that egging on of his supporters, at which point you can start to tie it to the Republican party itself.

I am also not really associated with either party but it seems like for a different reason than you. I view the Democrats as just...a slightly better version of the Republicans. I wish there was an actual left party. So I have no voted for both Republican and Democrat presidents, but I would definitely not call myself a Democrat. And Biden was an absolutely awful choice from my perspective. Maybe choosing him is what resulted in him potentially winning and getting Trump out of the office, which would be an amazing thing, but he doesn't really align with many of my ideals or beliefs.

[Dill]

(11-05-2020, 12:05 PM)Au165 Wrote: I don't remember them ever believing before that "Democrats are socialists who we need to take up arms against to protect our way of life". They disagreed with their views but the mobilization to violence and vitriol is a new phenomenon, but I am not sure it is relegated simply to Republicans, it is just more noticeable in the current situation.

Just to tweak this a bit. I do remember hearing the "Democrats are socialists whom we need to take arms against" back in the '60s and '70s. But the "biased liberal media" never accorded such views legitimacy, and they were forced into the background of national politics with the apparent victory of the Civil Rights movement.

The difference is not that these views have recently appeared (e.g. with Trumpism), but that they once again have visibility and public sanction, and perhaps an even greater social platform than before, now that the "liberal media" are not the only media.  

I cannot imagine Reagan or even Nixon having such difficulty condemning a plot to kidnap a governor as Trump does. They would understand the ramifications of tweeting "I love Texas" in support of violent freeway intimidation.  

But I can imagine Wallace having such difficulty and tweeting such tweets.