3 Police Officers Dead in La.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(07-18-2016, 01:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is not true at all.  In fact many experts blame the rise in violent crime this year on the fact that police are not working as hard just because they were facing some criticism.

Who are these experts?

I don't know and haven't heard or read anything about this that's why I'm asking and would like to read up on it.

[*bfine32*]

(07-18-2016, 01:42 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Who are these experts?

I don't know and haven't heard or read anything about this that's why I'm asking and would like to read up on it.

You read this forum and haven't figured out who the experts are?

[GMDino]

[fredtoast]

(07-18-2016, 01:42 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Who are these experts?

FBI Director James Comey

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/12/us/comey-ferguson-effect-police-videos-fbi.html?smid=nytnow-share&smprod=nytnow&_r=0


The director of the F.B.I. reignited the factious debate over a so-called “Ferguson effect” on Wednesday, saying that he believed less aggressive policing was driving an alarming spike in murders in many cities.



Chicago Police Superintendent John Escalante

http://www.npr.org/2016/03/11/469974819/chicago-murder-rate-spikes-less-aggressive-policing-blamed


Interim police Superintendent John Escalante acknowledges there might have been a "Laquan McDonald effect," where police officers are less aggressive and even somewhat passive in pursuing criminals.

Police in Chicago made 30 percent fewer arrests in the early part of this year compared to last year. Street stops are down more than 80 percent so far this year.



In Baltimore

http://time.com/3905876/baltimore-murders-homicide-rate-record/

There were 43 homicides in May, the most in any month since December 1971—when the city was almost one-third bigger than it is today.

At the same time, arrests have plummeted. In the first two weeks of May, arrests by Baltimore police were down 57% from the year before.

“The cops I’ve spoken to say it’s different now,” said Peter Moskos, a John Jay College of Criminal Justice professor and former Baltimore City police officer. “Cops are saying, If we’re going to get in trouble for well-intentioned mistakes, then f— it, I’m not working.”

The number of murders has doubled while shootings are up more than 80%, and most experts say that it’s at least partly linked to a reluctance by police to actively do their jobs.

[fredtoast]

(07-18-2016, 01:42 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I don't know and haven't heard or read anything about this that's why I'm asking and would like to read up on it.

(07-18-2016, 01:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You read this forum and haven't figured out who the experts are?

The blind leading the blind. Both of them happily living in the right wing echo chamber where they only get half of the news.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(07-18-2016, 02:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The blind leading the blind.  Both of them happily living in the right wing echo chamber where they only get half of the news.

I ask for sources so I can read up on it because I haven't heard anything about it then you insult me?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(07-18-2016, 02:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: FBI Director James Comey

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/12/us/comey-ferguson-effect-police-videos-fbi.html?smid=nytnow-share&smprod=nytnow&_r=0


The director of the F.B.I. reignited the factious debate over a so-called “Ferguson effect” on Wednesday, saying that he believed less aggressive policing was driving an alarming spike in murders in many cities.



Chicago Police Superintendent John Escalante

http://www.npr.org/2016/03/11/469974819/chicago-murder-rate-spikes-less-aggressive-policing-blamed


Interim police Superintendent John Escalante acknowledges there might have been a "Laquan McDonald effect," where police officers are less aggressive and even somewhat passive in pursuing criminals.

Police in Chicago made 30 percent fewer arrests in the early part of this year compared to last year. Street stops are down more than 80 percent so far this year.



In Baltimore

http://time.com/3905876/baltimore-murders-homicide-rate-record/

There were 43 homicides in May, the most in any month since December 1971—when the city was almost one-third bigger than it is today.

At the same time, arrests have plummeted. In the first two weeks of May, arrests by Baltimore police were down 57% from the year before.

“The cops I’ve spoken to say it’s different now,” said Peter Moskos, a John Jay College of Criminal Justice professor and former Baltimore City police officer. “Cops are saying, If we’re going to get in trouble for well-intentioned mistakes, then f— it, I’m not working.”

The number of murders has doubled while shootings are up more than 80%, and most experts say that it’s at least partly linked to a reluctance by police to actively do their jobs.

Cops in Baltimore and Chicago scared to do their job? Wonder why?


Can't be the Ferguson effect everywhere, cause crime is down in Seattle, Lexington, Portland, Louisville, Colorado Springs, Lincoln. Wonder Why?

[JustWinBaby]

(07-18-2016, 02:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Chicago Police Superintendent John Escalante

http://www.npr.org/2016/03/11/469974819/chicago-murder-rate-spikes-less-aggressive-policing-blamed



In Baltimore

http://time.com/3905876/baltimore-murders-homicide-rate-record/

Long and fancy way of saying "when we profile less, crime goes up".

[fredtoast]

(07-18-2016, 04:13 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Long and fancy way of saying "when we profile less, crime goes up".

Wrong. This has zero to do with profiling.

It has to do with police not doing their jobs.

[fredtoast]

(07-18-2016, 03:32 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Cops in Baltimore and Chicago scared to do their job? Wonder why?

They are not scared. They are just mad that anyone dared question their absolute authority to kill whoever they want whenever they want.

They are punishing everyone by refusing to do their jobs just because they were under investigation.

[JustWinBaby]

(07-18-2016, 06:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.  This has zero to do with profiling.

It has to do with police not doing their jobs.

What proof do you have of that?

In Chicago, an settlement/agreement with the ACLU led to a huge drop in number of stops because of onorous reporting requirements.  Shootings were up, I think 70-80% in the two months after implementation in January 2016, and after revisions to simplify the forms that number dropped significantly (but still up like 23% year-over-year).

Of course, shootings/violence have been on the rise in Chicago for several years since they were very effective in breaking the two major gangs running things....this had the unintended consequences of create a power void.

[JustWinBaby]

(07-18-2016, 06:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are just mad that anyone dared question their absolute authority to kill whoever they want whenever they want.

Still buying into that false narrative wholeheartedly, I see?

[fredtoast]

(07-18-2016, 06:32 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: What proof do you have of that?

In Chicago, an settlement/agreement with the ACLU led to a huge drop in number of stops because of onorous reporting requirements.  Shootings were up, I think 70-80% in the two months after implementation in January 2016, and after revisions to simplify the forms that number dropped significantly (but still up like 23% year-over-year).

Of course, shootings/violence have been on the rise in Chicago for several years since they were very effective in breaking the two major gangs running things....this had the unintended consequences of create a power void.

Still has zero to do with profiling. In fact it is just more proof that police are so lazy they would rather let criminals run free than fill out extra paperwork.

Perhaps instead of just blindly swallowing all the pro-LEO propaganda you hear you shoold look at some actual numbers

http://capitolfax.com/2016/04/12/study-mcdonald-video-aftermath-not-aclu-form-main-cause-of-problem/


The ISR doesn’t appear to be the major reason behind the downward trend in arrests. The ISR was implemented on Jan. 1, 38 days after the release of the Laquan McDonald video. In that five-week span, the overall arrest rate fell from 26 percent to 19 percent. Since Jan. 1, the overall arrest rate has risen slightly. The onset of the decline in arrests significantly predates the ISR, and arrests have actually increased since it was introduced, though they are occurring less frequently than they did in 2015.

[JustWinBaby]

(07-18-2016, 07:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still has zero to do with profiling.  In fact it is just more proof that police are so lazy they would rather let criminals run free than fill out extra paperwork.

LMAO.....Everything to do with profiling.  Chicago was having to report all stops to the ACLU  - what does that mean to you, "counselor"?  It means they were being examined for potential profiling.

You're statement is just ignorant  But then you probably already knew that.

Police are lazy? That's disgusting and despicable. That's the type of poisonous rhetoric that emboldens thugs to shoot at cops.

[fredtoast]

(07-19-2016, 04:45 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: LMAO.....Everything to do with profiling.  Chicago was having to report all stops to the ACLU  - what does that mean to you, "counselor"?  It means they were being examined for potential profiling.

I never disputed this. Even you agreed that the police were profiling before they put these guidelines in place.

But there is a big difference between "less profiling" and "fewer stops, investigations, and arrests". It is possible to stop profiling and still make the same number of stops.

[JustWinBaby]

(07-19-2016, 01:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I never disputed this.  

LMFAO.....OK....You said it, so it must be true.

(07-19-2016, 01:10 PM)fredtoast It is possible to stop Wrote: It is possible to stop profiling and still make the same number of stops.

Really? Why don't you go tell people who have spent decades living this, and thinking about it, how it's done?

Oh, right....you're just a troll.

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2016, 05:50 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Really? Why don't you go tell people who have spent decades living this, and thinking about it, how it's done?

Okay, let me ask a si ple question.

Why is it impossible to make the same number of stops without racial profiling?


Why can't they still stop the same number of people without having to single out one race over the other?

[BmorePat87]

You guys are having the same argument in 3 threads...

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-18-2016, 06:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.  This has zero to do with profiling.

It has to do with police not doing their jobs.

(07-18-2016, 06:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are not scared.  They are just mad that anyone dared question their absolute authority to kill whoever they want whenever they want.

They are punishing everyone by refusing to do their jobs just because they were under investigation.

(07-18-2016, 07:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still has zero to do with profiling.  In fact it is just more proof that police are so lazy they would rather let criminals run free than fill out extra paperwork.

Perhaps instead of just blindly swallowing all the pro-LEO propaganda you hear you shoold look at some actual numbers

http://capitolfax.com/2016/04/12/study-mcdonald-video-aftermath-not-aclu-form-main-cause-of-problem/


The ISR doesn’t appear to be the major reason behind the downward trend in arrests. The ISR was implemented on Jan. 1, 38 days after the release of the Laquan McDonald video. In that five-week span, the overall arrest rate fell from 26 percent to 19 percent. Since Jan. 1, the overall arrest rate has risen slightly. The onset of the decline in arrests significantly predates the ISR, and arrests have actually increased since it was introduced, though they are occurring less frequently than they did in 2015.

(07-19-2016, 01:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I never disputed this.  Even you agreed that the police were profiling before they put these guidelines in place.

But there is a big difference between "less profiling" and "fewer stops, investigations, and arrests".  It is possible to stop profiling and still make the same number of stops.

(07-24-2016, 11:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay, let me ask a si ple question.

Why is it impossible to make the same number of stops without racial profiling?


Why can't they still stop the same number of people without having to single out one race over the other?

Look at Mayor McBroadbrush do his thing.  I do love when the mask slips on you and GMDabo and we get a glimpse of your true feelings.  Does it at all bother you that the two of you and Lucie are merely different sides of the same coin?  Regardless I'll address your inanity.

Racial profiling is a lazy term.  Smart policing, especially for a veteran officer, involves reading cues that will often be misinterpreted by the uninitiated as profiling.  Yes, I can see you sharpening your claws to point out that I just excused police abuse as based on some finely honed instinct.  I expect that from you and your ilk, especially given the litany of posts I just quoted.  Sadly, experience in dealing with criminals gives you a definite feel for criminal behavior, a proposition you roundly mocked in another thread.  I get it, you come across as having the same "disease" that some LEO's get.  They start to assume that everyone they deal with is bad due to the few civilians they deal with that are.  You, quite clearly, have decided to lump all LEO's into the same group due to the few you've encountered who, rightfully perceived by you or no, have bent the rules.  You come across as one of those defense attorneys who start to identify with their clients.  It's sadly not uncommon but it's happily easy to spot.

The easy, and sadly true, explanation for your so called "Furgeson Effect" is that LEO's have realized that every action that results in a negative outcome will be examined under a worst possible scenario microscope.  Largely due to the efforts of people like yourself, ironic no?  Armchair quarterbacking at its worst assumes that the actor is aware of all knowledge present after the fact and thus are judged as such.  Real life doesn't work that way.  Given this state of affairs who can blame anyone for not wanting to expose themselves to undue liability by putting themselves in a position in which the merest hint of impropriety results in a national headline and another street protest? At this point a street protest that results in the potential death of some of their colleges.  The national mood is such that all police killings are mentioned at the same time as any shooting when any logical person would concede that the total number of people killed by police is not a concern, the number of people questionably killed by the police is.


It would actually be amusing if the real world consequences weren't so sad, your echo chamber has produced the exact opposite effect you purport to desire.  The police will no longer put themselves in a potentially precarious position because doing so puts them at risk of being pilloried by your ilk.  They do their job and nothing more.  Sadly, I was told by an old hat when I started this job that, "You can't get fired for being mediocre but you can absolutely get fired for trying to do too much."  Your type sees this kind of statement as an indictment of police unions but in reality it is an indictment of you and all of those like you.  You say you want pro-active policing, you say you want crime prevention but you are absolutely unwilling to forgive any honest mistake made in quest of such a goal.  That's why you don't get it anymore and you have no one but yourself to blame.

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2016, 09:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Look at Mayor McBroadbrush do his thing.  I do love when the mask slips on you and GMDabo and we get a glimpse of your true feelings.  Does it at all bother you that the two of you and Lucie are merely different sides of the same coin?  Regardless I'll address your inanity.

Racial profiling is a lazy term.  Smart policing, especially for a veteran officer, involves reading cues that will often be misinterpreted by the uninitiated as profiling.  Yes, I can see you sharpening your claws to point out that I just excused police abuse as based on some finely honed instinct.  I expect that from you and your ilk, especially given the litany of posts I just quoted.  Sadly, experience in dealing with criminals gives you a definite feel for criminal behavior, a proposition you roundly mocked in another thread.  I get it, you come across as having the same "disease" that some LEO's get.  They start to assume that everyone they deal with is bad due to the few civilians they deal with that are.  You, quite clearly, have decided to lump all LEO's into the same group due to the few you've encountered who, rightfully perceived by you or no, have bent the rules.  You come across as one of those defense attorneys who start to identify with their clients.  It's sadly not uncommon but it's happily easy to spot.

The easy, and sadly true, explanation for your so called "Furgeson Effect" is that LEO's have realized that every action that results in a negative outcome will be examined under a worst possible scenario microscope.  Largely due to the efforts of people like yourself, ironic no?  Armchair quarterbacking at its worst assumes that the actor is aware of all knowledge present after the fact and thus are judged as such.  Real life doesn't work that way.  Given this state of affairs who can blame anyone for not wanting to expose themselves to undue liability by putting themselves in a position in which the merest hint of impropriety results in a national headline and another street protest? At this point a street protest that results in the potential death of some of their colleges.  The national mood is such that all police killings are mentioned at the same time as any shooting when any logical person would concede that the total number of people killed by police is not a concern, the number of people questionably killed by the police is.


It would actually be amusing if the real world consequences weren't so sad, your echo chamber has produced the exact opposite effect you purport to desire.  The police will no longer put themselves in a potentially precarious position because doing so puts them at risk of being pilloried by your ilk.  They do their job and nothing more.  Sadly, I was told by an old hat when I started this job that, "You can't get fired for being mediocre but you can absolutely get fired for trying to do too much."  Your type sees this kind of statement as an indictment of police unions but in reality it is an indictment of you and all of those like you.  You say you want pro-active policing, you say you want crime prevention but you are absolutely unwilling to forgive any honest mistake made in quest of such a goal.  That's why you don't get it anymore and you have no one but yourself to blame.

So let me get this straight.

When a police officer is exposed to criminal behavior all the time it gives them super powers to recognize criminal behavior, but when a criminal defense attorney is exposed to lying cops all the time it just makes them stupid and assume innocent cops are guilty.

This is the most arrogant absurd logic I have ever seen.

"The exact same experience that gives me super powers makes other people stupid.  Police are just naturally superior to all other humans."

Police have no one but themselves to blame for everyone assuming they are crooked liars.  Everyone knows about the "Blue Wall".  If police were not so proud of their ability to lie to protect each other they might be given more of a benefit of a doubt from citizens.  And your bloviations about how superior police are to all other humans are more proof of the problem.  How can you really claim that it is impossible for police to become jaded and paranoid based on their exposure to criminal activity?  What is so special about them compared to every other human on earth?

My theory is that police here ea ch other lie so much about their inability to make mistakes that they eventually start to believe it.