Tough break for the Ravens, but Lamar isn’t to blame for that loss. I understand the urge to blame the QB, and we know Black QBs get even more scrutiny, but it’s a team failure.
As Kurt Warner’s recent tape analysis revealed, there’s a coaching failure with route running and the offensive scheming makes no sense. He credits that to a lot of Lamar’s struggles to develop as a passer, though Lamar certainly needs to improve.
Give Lamar blame for the pick, but it’s a team failure when you let them return it for 101 yards. Zeus Jr clearly didn’t even try to make a tackle. Despite that, he could have led them on another drive, but the o line is a mess. Your QB shouldn’t be scrambling and getting concussed because of errant snaps, and basic pressure looked like an all out blitz.
The Bills supported their QB by getting him the best WR available. The Ravens have never done that.
Wild winds made the GOAT kicker look like Billy Cundiff.
Only shining star was the defense that only allowed one scoring drive out of the Bills territory.
(01-17-2021, 02:47 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Tough break for the Ravens, but Lamar isn’t to blame for that loss. I understand the urge to blame the QB, and we know Black QBs get even more scrutiny, but it’s a team failure.
As Kurt Warner’s recent tape analysis revealed, there’s a coaching failure with route running and the offensive scheming makes no sense. He credits that to a lot of Lamar’s struggles to develop as a passer, though Lamar certainly needs to improve.
Give Lamar blame for the pick, but it’s a team failure when you let them return it for 101 yards. Zeus Jr clearly didn’t even try to make a tackle. Despite that, he could have led them on another drive, but the o line is a mess. Your QB shouldn’t be scrambling and getting concussed because of errant snaps, and basic pressure looked like an all out blitz.
The Bills supported their QB by getting him the best WR available. The Ravens have never done that.
Wild winds made the GOAT kicker look like Billy Cundiff.
Only shining star was the defense that only allowed one scoring drive out of the Bills territory.
The Bills balled harder. I hope they take it all.
WEAAAAAAK cop out. Keep that shit in P&R. Mahomes is the unanimous best QB in all of football, and Wilson and Watson are pretty unanimously considered Top-6 QBs as well. Your boy just isn't because he isn't.
Good throw = 10-10 tied game.
Lamar's throw = 3-17 game over.
It's as simple as that. I'm sure you were extremely fair-minded when Dalton put up terrible postseason stats 2011-2014.
He stared down Mark Andrews and threw it right at a defender into triple coverage and then didn't try very hard to make the tackle.
Defense held the Bills to 10 points and 220 yards, your RBs went for 135 yards on just 23 touches..... but sure, "team failure". Lol
Jackson wouldn't even know what to do with a #1 WR. The guy throws for <200 yards a game. There's zero chance a #1 WR would be happy in Baltimore watching other #1 WRs put up 1,300+ yard seasons and getting paid for it while they run block
(01-17-2021, 03:08 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: WEAAAAAAK cop out. Keep that shit in P&R. Mahomes is the unanimous best QB in all of football, and Wilson and Watson are pretty unanimously considered Top-6 QBs as well. Your boy just isn't because he isn't.
Good throw = 10-10 tied game.
Lamar's throw = 3-17 game over.
It's as simple as that. I'm sure you were extremely fair-minded when Dalton put up terrible postseason stats 2011-2014.
He stared down Mark Andrews and threw it right at a defender into triple coverage and then didn't try very hard to make the tackle.
Defense held the Bills to 10 points and 220 yards, your RBs went for 135 yards on just 23 touches..... but sure, "team failure". Lol
Jackson wouldn't even know what to do with a #1 WR. The guy throws for <200 yards a game. There's zero chance a #1 WR would be happy in Baltimore watching other #1 WRs put up 1,300+ yard seasons and getting paid for it while they run block
There’s a lot of things that are just wrong in this post, but if you’re going to try to tell the guy who has actually seen every Ravens game what their teams shortcomings are, at least know who plays what positions.
Our RBs had 84 yards on 20 carries. Those additional 3 carries you’re adding came from Tyler Huntley, the back up QB who came in after Lamar got concussed on the errant snap, though even with his yards added, it’s not 135 yards.
Glad you tried to look at the box score after the game before giving your clearly well thought out analysis, though.
(01-17-2021, 03:34 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There’s a lot of things that are just wrong in this post, but if you’re going to try to tell the guy who has actually seen every Ravens game what their teams shortcomings are, at least know who plays what positions.
Our RBs had 84 yards on 20 carries. Those additional 3 carries you’re adding came from Tyler Huntley, the back up QB who came in after Lamar got concussed on the errant snap, though even with his yards added, it’s not 135 yards.
Glad you tried to look at the box score after the game before giving your clearly well thought out analysis, though.
There's SO many things that are just wrong in this post. If you're going to make a snarky reply comment, at least know what words are.
I said 135 yards on 23 TOUCHES, not rushing yards, and not carries. You were busy trying to protect Lamar with some P&R racial strawman bullshit to explain away criticism for a career 68.3 QB Rating in the postseason and throwing what was essentially a game-ending pick six on a terrible read with minimal effort to make the tackle afterwards that you didn't even bother reading.
Glad you only looked at half the words in my post before giving your clearly well thought out reply, though.
(01-17-2021, 02:47 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Tough break for the Ravens, but Lamar isn’t to blame for that loss. I understand the urge to blame the QB, and we know Black QBs get even more scrutiny, but it’s a team failure.
As Kurt Warner’s recent tape analysis revealed, there’s a coaching failure with route running and the offensive scheming makes no sense. He credits that to a lot of Lamar’s struggles to develop as a passer, though Lamar certainly needs to improve.
Give Lamar blame for the pick, but it’s a team failure when you let them return it for 101 yards. Zeus Jr clearly didn’t even try to make a tackle. Despite that, he could have led them on another drive, but the o line is a mess. Your QB shouldn’t be scrambling and getting concussed because of errant snaps, and basic pressure looked like an all out blitz.
The Bills supported their QB by getting him the best WR available. The Ravens have never done that.
Wild winds made the GOAT kicker look like Billy Cundiff.
Only shining star was the defense that only allowed one scoring drive out of the Bills territory.
The Bills balled harder. I hope they take it all.
Ew that’s what collinsworth said. You’re just repeating him
“The interception isn’t the bad part, them not tackling is the bad part”
Yuck. A critical red zone interception was the bad part. This dude can’t get it done in the playoffs. Media and fans coddle this dude and always give him excuses. Enough. The reigning mvp can’t get it done in the playoffs
And no, scoring 20 against a terrible tennesse defense impresses nobody
(01-17-2021, 03:58 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: There's SO many things that are just wrong in this post. If you're going to make a snarky reply comment, at least know what words are.
I said 135 yards on 23 TOUCHES, not rushing yards, and not carries. You were busy trying to protect Lamar with some P&R racial strawman bullshit to explain away criticism for a career 68.3 QB Rating in the postseason and throwing what was essentially a game-ending pick six on a terrible read with minimal effort to make the tackle afterwards that you didn't even bother reading.
Glad you only looked at half the words in my post before giving your clearly well thought out reply, though.
Yea this bmore pat fella is clearly a fan boy. Very irrational. Lamar stunk it up this game like he has his other 2 playoff losses.
And it’s not because he is black lmaoo how ridiculous. Deshaun Watson is praised as one of the best QB’s in this league, and rightfully so
Jackson on the other hand? Bad thrower of the football. Good runner though
(01-17-2021, 03:58 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: There's SO many things that are just wrong in this post. If you're going to make a snarky reply comment, at least know what words are.
I said 135 yards on 23 TOUCHES, not rushing yards, and not carries. You were busy trying to protect Lamar with some P&R racial strawman bullshit to explain away criticism for a career 68.3 QB Rating in the postseason and throwing what was essentially a game-ending pick six on a terrible read with minimal effort to make the tackle afterwards that you didn't even bother reading.
Glad you only looked at half the words in my post before giving your clearly well thought out reply, though.
I assumed you 1) knew Patrick Ricard was a FB (and wouldn't have left his catch out) and 2) wouldn't try to include receptions as an argument that all blame falls solely on Lamar (given that you'd have to credit him with passes made to the backs while also acknowledging the drops made by them too).
Including the performance of the backs in the passing game as part of your argument against Lamar would be odd given that they caught passes at the exact same rate as the receivers, the majority of passing yards to the backs came from Lamar rather than from Huntley at the end when the Bills D was allowing the dink and dunk passes, and Dobbins' dropped pass on 3rd down led to the botched punt which led to the Bills scoring a FG.
It's hard to imagine anyone pointing to Dobbin's 30 yard pass from Lamar, in which Lamar escaped pressure as his O line collapsed and hit Dobbins for the first down, and using that as an argument for Lamar being the only person to blame for the team losing.
For those reasons, I figured you just meant rushes and erroneously believed that Huntley was a RB because otherwise you're arguing against yourself, because no one who is actively acknowledging the role that the entire offense plays in executing their game plan could put the blame on one player.
However, if that's the case, though, and you are indeed acknowledging the involvement of all parties in the passing game, then I am glad we agree that it was a failure beyond just Lamar and includes all aspects of the team outside of the "shining star" (as I described them) defense.
(01-17-2021, 04:30 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: “The interception isn’t the bad part, them not tackling is the bad part”
You may want to read the post again:
"Give Lamar blame for the pick, but it’s a team failure when you let them return it for 101 yards. "
I did not say the interception was not bad nor did I say the tackling was the bad part. I said the interception itself is Lamar's fault. I then said that the interception being returned for 101 yards is a "team failure".
Peyton Manning went 0-3 in the playoffs his first 3 seasons. He had an average QB rating of 58.5 and his team scored an average of 11 points a game, including a shut out 0-41 loss his 3rd season.
But Peyton was a elite young QB who would eventually win a ring. He was the future. It could not be denied...
Joe Flacco's first 3 seasons saw the Ravens go 4-3 in the playoffs, but Flacco had an average rating of 57.4, but he had the Ray Lewis and Ed Reed defense as well as highly praised running backs, so despite only throwing 3 TD's to 7 picks in 7 games, he team scored an average of 20.6 points a game.
He was pedestrian in the regular season, but he was considered a winner and game manager in the playoffs despite the reality.
Lamar Jackson takes over his team his rookie season and leads them to a 6-1 record including a division title. He's the only QB in his class to go to the playoffs. He loses that game by 6 despite throwing 2 TD's to 1 pick. For reference thats more TD's than Manning and Flacco threw the combined in the 4 playoff games they played their rookie season.
The narrative then becomes if he is truly the answer. Can he succeed in the NFL? Is he a gimmick? Was he exposed?
Lamar puts up 508 yards (365 in the air) his sophomore season and loses. Despite going 14-2, being the 2nd QB ever to be unanimously crowned MVP, and leading the league in passing TD's, he's dismissed as nothing more than a RB. He's a bust in the playoffs.
So people can say there's not a double standard for black QB's, but the reality is that there absolutely is.
(01-17-2021, 02:22 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Lamar Jackson's passer rating in 4 career postseason games and the average amount of points the Ravens score with him.
Honestly, if it is your goal is to be embarrassed in the playoffs every year, you could just sign Andy Dalton for much less.
I'm no fan of Jackson's. He's exciting to watch but I don't think he'll be QB anytime soon. That's just me giving it the eye test and being an old man who has said a run first QB will never win a Super Bowl since the days of Randal Cunningham...and Cunningham had a hell of an arm.
I'm also old enough to remember when everyone on this board was so excited to see the Ravens give Flacco all that money after he won his super Bowl following a once in a lifetime post season performance enhanced by one of the worst Defensive plays I've ever seen in Denver that year in the playoffs.
Difference being Jackson is much younger and with more upside.
Pat nailed the stats on it all but unless the kid becomes a QB that uses his legs to extend plays and then make them vs what they are doing now I don't know if he's worth the big money except that the Ravens have nowhere else to go. And some other team WILL pay him and they do the same thing with him.
I will be taking no further questions at this time.
(01-17-2021, 02:47 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Tough break for the Ravens, but Lamar isn’t to blame for that loss. I understand the urge to blame the QB, and we know Black QBs get even more scrutiny, but it’s a team failure.
As Kurt Warner’s recent tape analysis revealed, there’s a coaching failure with route running and the offensive scheming makes no sense. He credits that to a lot of Lamar’s struggles to develop as a passer, though Lamar certainly needs to improve.
Give Lamar blame for the pick, but it’s a team failure when you let them return it for 101 yards. Zeus Jr clearly didn’t even try to make a tackle. Despite that, he could have led them on another drive, but the o line is a mess. Your QB shouldn’t be scrambling and getting concussed because of errant snaps, and basic pressure looked like an all out blitz.
The Bills supported their QB by getting him the best WR available. The Ravens have never done that.
Wild winds made the GOAT kicker look like Billy Cundiff.
Only shining star was the defense that only allowed one scoring drive out of the Bills territory.
The Bills balled harder. I hope they take it all.
Team failure is what Dalton supporters would always cite, and to an extent it's true. Fans will almost always excuse the QB, but at some point you need to be able to take a good, hard look at how a QB plays in the playoffs and lamar doesn't play well.
I know Flacco started off slow but he was a good pocket passer that was able to improve with experience. I don't see Jackson improving in that way because he relies on his legs too much.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(01-17-2021, 05:33 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Peyton Manning went 0-3 in the playoffs his first 3 seasons. He had an average QB rating of 58.5 and his team scored an average of 11 points a game, including a shut out 0-41 loss his 3rd season.
Ah, I remember using the Peyton Manning defense for Dalton. Just give him a few more chances and he will eventually win one!
(01-17-2021, 01:42 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Team failure is what Dalton supporters would always cite, and to an extent it's true. Fans will almost always excuse the QB, but at some point you need to be able to take a good, hard look at how a QB plays in the playoffs and lamar doesn't play well.
I know Flacco started off slow but he was a good pocket passer that was able to improve with experience. I don't see Jackson improving in that way because he relies on his legs too much.
I'm happy to criticize Lamar, but the question I have is: "is the Ravens' passing scheme and route running poorly designed/coached because of Lamar's struggles as a passer, or is one of the reasons why Lamar has struggled this season because our passing scheme is poorly designed and our route running is lacking?"
This doesn't excuse Lamar's flaws. He struggles when the pocket collapses and he has a tendency to try to save the play rather than get rid of the ball. This leads to him scrambling around the backfield and then losing yards on the play. His accuracy the pedestrian and he struggles throwing it deep.
That said, he consistently has low interception numbers, even adjusted for passing attempts. His passing TD % in 2019 was better than Mahomes, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, or Wilson's career highs. He had the 3rd highest passing TD % this season, behind Rodgers and Wilson. His passer rating is also consistently high.
His success in 2019 wasn't just his legs. He was able to use that threat, however, to open up the passing game with great success. He hit a lull this season, but that's relative to 2019. If he is going to be judged by slow progress in playoff play, he's fortunately in good historic company there.
(01-17-2021, 02:36 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Ah, I remember using the Peyton Manning defense for Dalton. Just give him a few more chances and he will eventually win one!
Lamar did win one though...
But the point was to put him in context relative to both a generational player and someone considered to be average but a winning franchise QB.
That O-line played horrible last night. Was like watching some Bengals games. Steelers folded last week. Browns have the best O-line in the division and only ones still in the playoffs. Crazy times.
(01-17-2021, 02:47 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Tough break for the Ravens, but Lamar isn’t to blame for that loss. I understand the urge to blame the QB, and we know Black QBs get even more scrutiny, but it’s a team failure.
As Kurt Warner’s recent tape analysis revealed, there’s a coaching failure with route running and the offensive scheming makes no sense. He credits that to a lot of Lamar’s struggles to develop as a passer, though Lamar certainly needs to improve.
Give Lamar blame for the pick, but it’s a team failure when you let them return it for 101 yards. Zeus Jr clearly didn’t even try to make a tackle. Despite that, he could have led them on another drive, but the o line is a mess. Your QB shouldn’t be scrambling and getting concussed because of errant snaps, and basic pressure looked like an all out blitz.
The Bills supported their QB by getting him the best WR available. The Ravens have never done that.
Wild winds made the GOAT kicker look like Billy Cundiff.
Only shining star was the defense that only allowed one scoring drive out of the Bills territory.
The Bills balled harder. I hope they take it all.
While I generally like Lamar Jackson, and really only knock him on this board, I think Hollywood Brown is a better WR than he appears to be on the Ravens.... But I mostly agree. Lamar needs more than Andrews and him.
I'm gonna break every record they've got. I'm tellin' you right now. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but it's goin' to get done.
(01-17-2021, 02:47 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I'm happy to criticize Lamar, but the question I have is: "is the Ravens' passing scheme and route running poorly designed/coached because of Lamar's struggles as a passer, or is one of the reasons why Lamar has struggled this season because our passing scheme is poorly designed and our route running is lacking?"
This doesn't excuse Lamar's flaws. He struggles when the pocket collapses and he has a tendency to try to save the play rather than get rid of the ball. This leads to him scrambling around the backfield and then losing yards on the play. His accuracy the pedestrian and he struggles throwing it deep.
That said, he consistently has low interception numbers, even adjusted for passing attempts. His passing TD % in 2019 was better than Mahomes, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, or Wilson's career highs. He had the 3rd highest passing TD % this season, behind Rodgers and Wilson. His passer rating is also consistently high.
His success in 2019 wasn't just his legs. He was able to use that threat, however, to open up the passing game with great success. He hit a lull this season, but that's relative to 2019. If he is going to be judged by slow progress in playoff play, he's fortunately in good historic company there.
From what i've seen, and admittedly it's not a lot, a lot of his passing stats come when the play breaks down. The longer a play lasts, the greater the chance of a big play. Especially for a guy as elusive as he is.
I don't know if or how much timing passes are incorporated into the Ravens offense. I also don't know his capacity for reading a defense for that type of system.
He's going to need to adapt in that aspect or he's going to have a short career, whether it be from injury eventually or just not producing as a pocket passer.
With the running game what it is, he should be able to produce consistently from the pocket. It could very well be that he is a good pocket passer, just hasn't shown it a lot yet or it could be that he's just not as good when the lights are turned up, like Dalton.
I know which one it looks like to me.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
(01-17-2021, 03:08 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: your RBs
(01-17-2021, 04:58 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Patrick Ricard was a FB
"I assumed when you said RB, you would include another different position, that's why I made an ass of myself by not reading and trying to make fun of you adding another different position."
Yep, perfect logic there Pat.
Just because you're a Lamar Jackson fanboy doesn't mean you need to emulate his playoff performances by being so embarrassing when taking your Ls.
Look at Jackson versus QBs like Deshaun Watson, Russel Wilson and Patrick Mahomes. A big difference here is that while Jackson has a cannon for an arm the three I listed all have excellent touch passing ability; which is a BIG key to being an effective QB. Jackson does not - he can put a lot of mustard on the throw but lacks that special accuracy. In fact, touch is more important than a cannon for being a big time QB - ask Tom Brady.
Jackson gets a lot of what passing success he has on broken plays by the defense where his receivers are quite open and there is no need for touch. As a result he fattens up big time on bad defenses. But defenses that are sound and play a sound scheme can handle him. In some ways he is like early career Randall Cunningham before the Vikings got him and forced him to learn pocket passing and worked with him on touch.
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