82 shot, 14 fatalities, over the 4th of July weekend

[StLucieBengal]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-07-07/news/chi-fourth-of-july-toll-82-shot-14-of-them-fatally-in-chicago-20140707_1_south-chicago-east-garfield-park-west-englewood


In the city with some of the strongest gun control in the nation. Chicago.

Maybe they should try freedom and watch these incidents go down.

Should really read the article and see the breakdown of when it happened .... Insane.

[fredtoast]

There is not correlation between gun laws and gun violence. Many states with the most lax gun laws and highest percentage of gun ownership are also some of the highest rated in gun violence.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

82 shot, 14 fatalities, over one weekend in one city. I can see you have a specific agenda with this post, but no matter how you try to twist it, there is a gun problem in this country that needs to be dealt with. It's not so much the fact that we have guns, but the culture that we have with it. What's your idea to fix the issue?

14 firearm fatalities is more than a lot of civilized countries experience in a year. Japan, Sweden, Israel, Ireland, South Korea, and many more experienced less than that number in the entire 2012 year.

[*bfine32*]

Actually those numbers were from last year. I read where there were "only" about 64 shooting in Chicago this year over the weekend.

[GMDino]

(07-07-2015, 09:19 AM)fredtoast Wrote: There is not correlation between gun laws and gun violence.  Many states with the most lax gun laws and highest percentage of gun ownership are also some of the highest rated in gun violence.

And Chicago has been easing gun laws for the last few years.

Clearly this has helped!

[*Nately120*]

(07-07-2015, 11:01 AM)GMDino Wrote: And Chicago has been easing gun laws for the last few years.

Clearly this has helped!

Meh, gun control works in NYC and usually works in Chicago insofar as your odds of getting shot are pretty low unless you join a gang and hang around the southside declaring war on other gangs.  I lived in Chicago for 2 years and  I never even saw a gun, but that's just me.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-07-2015, 09:48 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: 82 shot, 14 fatalities, over one weekend in one city.  I can see you have a specific agenda with this post, but no matter how you try to twist it, there is a gun problem in this country that needs to be dealt with.  It's not so much the fact that we have guns, but the culture that we have with it.  What's your idea to fix the issue?

14 firearm fatalities is more than a lot of civilized countries experience in a year.  Japan, Sweden, Israel, Ireland, South Korea, and many more experienced less than that number in the entire 2012 year.

Honestly ... I don't have an agenda with the post. Chicago is insane. There is little difference between Chicago and Miami and no way is Miami this violent. Is it gun laws? Idk.... But the fearnof criminals being shot has to be some sort of deterrent.

In any case. That amount of violence for one city on a weekend is ridiculous. Everyone who runs that town should be fired.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-07-2015, 09:19 AM)fredtoast Wrote: There is not correlation between gun laws and gun violence.  Many states with the most lax gun laws and highest percentage of gun ownership are also some of the highest rated in gun violence.

Please show me where this happens in Florida or Texas over a weekend.

Chicago has been out of control for sometime.

[*Nately120*]

(07-07-2015, 02:36 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Honestly ... I don't have an agenda with the post.   Chicago is insane.    There is little difference between Chicago and Miami and no way is Miami this violent.   Is it gun laws?  Idk.... But the fearnof criminals being shot has to be some sort of deterrent.  

In any case.   That amount of violence for one city on a weekend is ridiculous.   Everyone who runs that town should be fired.

I lived in Chicago and it wasn't insane.  Maybe people just assumed I was armed to the teeth with illegal firearms, or something and left me alone.  You'd think the place was Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome based on the way people talk about it.

[GMDino]

(07-07-2015, 02:38 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Please show me where this happens in Florida or Texas over a weekend.    

Chicago has been out of control for sometime.

I was curious and the first stats I found show  HUGE difference in crime in Chicago vs Miami!

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Miami-Florida.html
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Chicago-Illinois.html

I mean HUGE!

So I looked at population:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-05-17/sports/fl-comparing-miami-chicago-0520-20110517_1_rico-tubbs-miami-vice-chicago-hope

Quote:Population

According to 2010 Census, Chicago has 2,695,598 residents (third largest city); Miami 399,457 (42nd).

So...yeah.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(07-07-2015, 02:36 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Honestly ... I don't have an agenda with the post.   Chicago is insane.    There is little difference between Chicago and Miami and no way is Miami this violent.   Is it gun laws?  Idk.... But the fearnof criminals being shot has to be some sort of deterrent.  

In any case.   That amount of violence for one city on a weekend is ridiculous.   Everyone who runs that town should be fired.

The way you worded your OP makes it seem like you have a pretty anti-gun control agenda.  If not, apologies for assuming.

As for the differences between Miami and Chicago, the crime number differences mainly lie in the fact that Chicago's population is much higher, as it's already been pointed out.

I know that some people scoff at Wikipedia referencing, but here is their page for "List of Cities By Crime Rate".  Now, Chicago doesn't report violent crime rate or rape statistics, but you can infer from checking out the stats on Murder, Robbery, and Aggravated Assaults, that it does not stand out massively from other big American cities.  Detroit, St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, Oakland, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Memphis, Miami, New Orleans, Washington, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, etc...all rank above Chicago in crime per capita.  You have about double the chance of being murdered in Baltimore, or St. Louis, and triple the chance in Detroit and New Orleans as you do in Chicago.  This violence is nothing out of the ordinary for major cities, particularly in the south or the Midwest.

Gun violence is an issue.  Is it the guns themselves that are the issue?  Is it a cultural thing?  Is it lack of knowledge & respect for firearms?  A mental health issue? A combination of all of the above?  I don't know.  I do know one thing though.....the United States has set itself apart from the rest of the civilized world when it comes to gun violence.  It's a massive issue, and it needs to stop being pushed under the rug.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(2012)

[*bfine32*]

I thought the folk that the media choose to blame for the rash of shootings was surprising:

[fredtoast]

Th funniest part of this entire thread is that most of these killings were gang related. This means that most of the people who got shot also had guns. Guns did not prevent any of these people from being killed.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-07-2015, 03:09 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: The way you worded your OP makes it seem like you have a pretty anti-gun control agenda.  If not, apologies for assuming.

As for the differences between Miami and Chicago, the crime number differences mainly lie in the fact that Chicago's population is much higher, as it's already been pointed out.

I know that some people scoff at Wikipedia referencing, but here is their page for "List of Cities By Crime Rate".  Now, Chicago doesn't report violent crime rate or rape statistics, but you can infer from checking out the stats on Murder, Robbery, and Aggravated Assaults, that it does not stand out massively from other big American cities.  Detroit, St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, Oakland, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Memphis, Miami, New Orleans, Washington, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, etc...all rank above Chicago in crime per capita.  You have about double the chance of being murdered in Baltimore, or St. Louis, and triple the chance in Detroit and New Orleans as you do in Chicago.  This violence is nothing out of the ordinary for major cities, particularly in the south or the Midwest.

Gun violence is an issue.  Is it the guns themselves that are the issue?  Is it a cultural thing?  Is it lack of knowledge & respect for firearms?  A mental health issue? A combination of all of the above?  I don't know.  I do know one thing though.....the United States has set itself apart from the rest of the civilized world when it comes to gun violence.  It's a massive issue, and it needs to stop being pushed under the rug.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(2012)

All good... I reread and can see where you could have came to that conclusion. No worries.... You have always explained anything further when asked. I appreciate that

[StLucieBengal]

(07-07-2015, 07:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Th funniest part of this entire thread is that most of these killings were gang related.  This means that most of the people who got shot also had guns.  Guns did not prevent any of these people from being killed.

So your just against law abiding people carrying guns.... More law abiding people who carry the better off we all are....

[GMDino]

(07-07-2015, 07:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Th funniest part of this entire thread is that most of these killings were gang related.  This means that most of the people who got shot also had guns.  Guns did not prevent any of these people from being killed.

(07-08-2015, 03:15 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So your just against law abiding people carrying guns....   More law abiding people who carry the better off we all are....

You can't read...can you?

Law abiding or criminal more guns leads to more shooting...and causes more damage than stops more crime.

[XenoMorph]

(07-07-2015, 02:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I lived in Chicago and it wasn't insane.  Maybe people just assumed I was armed to the teeth with illegal firearms, or something and left me alone.  You'd think the place was Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome based on the way people talk about it.

Barter town seemed more civilized.

Break a deal spin the wheel

[Belsnickel]

(07-07-2015, 03:09 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: The way you worded your OP makes it seem like you have a pretty anti-gun control agenda.  If not, apologies for assuming.

As for the differences between Miami and Chicago, the crime number differences mainly lie in the fact that Chicago's population is much higher, as it's already been pointed out.

I know that some people scoff at Wikipedia referencing, but here is their page for "List of Cities By Crime Rate".  Now, Chicago doesn't report violent crime rate or rape statistics, but you can infer from checking out the stats on Murder, Robbery, and Aggravated Assaults, that it does not stand out massively from other big American cities.  Detroit, St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, Oakland, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Memphis, Miami, New Orleans, Washington, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, etc...all rank above Chicago in crime per capita.  You have about double the chance of being murdered in Baltimore, or St. Louis, and triple the chance in Detroit and New Orleans as you do in Chicago.  This violence is nothing out of the ordinary for major cities, particularly in the south or the Midwest.

Gun violence is an issue.  Is it the guns themselves that are the issue?  Is it a cultural thing?  Is it lack of knowledge & respect for firearms?  A mental health issue? A combination of all of the above?  I don't know.  I do know one thing though.....the United States has set itself apart from the rest of the civilized world when it comes to gun violence.  It's a massive issue, and it needs to stop being pushed under the rug.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(2012)

What is interesting is that if you look at the crime rates per capita, it is not far off. Using your link to compare figures here (rates based on per 100k people):
Miami - Murder: 16.7
Miami - Violent Crime: 1172
Chicago - Murder: 18.5
Chicago - Violent Crime: NA (doesn't report all of them)

Miami is 15th on that list in violent crime as a whole per capita. Interestingly enough, the violent crime rate in Memphis and Nashville is higher than in Miami per capita, and murder is higher in Memphis, though the firearm laws there are also lax (and even allow for open carry where Florida does not). Memphis is 4th in violent crime and 11th in murder.


In 2007 there was a survey done by USACarry.com regarding firearm ownership by state. TN came in at 43.9% while FL came in at 24.5%. Milwaukee comes in at 9th place on the violent crime list, while Wisconsin places 12th in gun ownership at 44.4%.

I have firearms, I love to shoot, and I feel safer in my home knowing there is a 12 gauge Remington between me and my front door. But the stats are not there to support that more firearms make us safer, that they deter crime. This isn't to say that firearm ownership increases the rate, either. For instance, Sweden is 9th in firearm ownership per capita, but their intentional homicide rate per capita is 0.7. Switzerland is 4th in ownership with a homicide rate of 0.6. Even the U.S. is below the world average of 6.2 with a homicide rate of 4.7 and a top ranking in firearm ownership.

The stats show that there is no firm correlation between firearm ownership rates and the safety of its citizenry. So can we all just stop trying to say there is?

[*Nately120*]

(07-08-2015, 03:15 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So your just against law abiding people carrying guns....   More law abiding people who carry the better off we all are....

I'm against people simply declaring gun control doesn't work because gang members are performing what I'd cynically call "population control."

[fredtoast]

The point that many gun lovers try to sweep under the rug is the large number of accidental deaths related to gun ownership.

Guns don't really lower the crime rate but they greatly inflate the number of deaths due to accidents. Do the chances of preventing a crime outweigh the chances of someone dying in a gun accident?

But just to show how fair and balanced I am i will point out that a large number of "gun deaths" are suicides that would have probably occurred even if there was no gun.

Both sides try to twist the numbers to fit their argument. So you have to look very closely at exactly what they say. "Gun deaths" are not really accurate because they include suicides, and "gun crimes" do not include the number of accidental deaths that occur due to gun ownership.