82 shot, 14 fatalities, over the 4th of July weekend

[fredtoast]

(02-03-2016, 12:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I know full well what it means to treat all folks equally. 

No you don't.  

You oppose equal protection under the law for same sex couples who want to get married.

You oppose making all business owners treat all customers equally based on religious belief.

You oppose giving a pregnant woman the equal right to make medical decisions about her own body.

[*bfine32*]

(02-03-2016, 01:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes, I agree that all lives matter, do you?

If so then why are you so upset that black people are out there trying to end violence?  And why are you not out protesting for the end of violence among white people.

Seems to me that you don't care enough about violent crime to do anything about it yourself, but maybe that is just because you are too busy cryinmg about the people who are actually out there trying to stop it.

I suppose we just disagree on the agenda of BLM I see you keep trying to classify someone who considers this organization hypocritical as hating black people. Typical; look at the racist who doesn't want you to be equal

[fredtoast]

(02-03-2016, 03:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I suppose we just disagree on the agenda of BLM I see you keep trying to classify someone who considers this organization hypocritical as hating black people.

Because there is no logical reason to call them hypocrites.  If there is no logical reason then I assume it has something to do with racism.

Are people who crusade to fight childhood hunger hypocrites because they are not also fighting against adult hunger?  Are people who complain about the persecution of Christians hypocrites because they don't complain about the persecution of all religions?  I don't see you whimpering and crying about groups like those.  

[*bfine32*]

(02-04-2016, 02:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because there is no logical reason to call them hypocrites.  If there is no logical reason then I assume it has something to do with racism.

Are people who crusade to fight childhood hunger hypocrites because they are not also fighting against adult hunger?  Are people who complain about the persecution of Christians hypocrites because they don't complain about the persecution of all religions?  I don't see you whimpering and crying about groups like those.  

If folks that fight hunger said: You are hungry because this person is causing you to be hungry, while ignoring the fact that you are hungry because of something you are doing to yourself and then told the hungry folks that we are going to "help" you by focusing on the smaller reason why you are hungry because you will like me better if I don't point out the fact that most of you are hungry is because of something you are going to yourself. The yes those folks would be hypocrites.

But there would be the same folks accusing others of supporting hunger because the ask the folks to focus on the real reason they are hungry and saying "See they don't care that you are hungry, because they don't what to focus the blame on an outside force, cause there is really nothing you can do to stop yourself from being hungry".

I don't see me whimpering and crying at all; those are just words you use to try to belittle someone's point and push toward Ad hominem;  because you are not really good at actually debating a subject you always have to attack the person.

[GMDino]

(02-04-2016, 02:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because there is no logical reason to call them hypocrites.  If there is no logical reason then I assume it has something to do with racism.

Are people who crusade to fight childhood hunger hypocrites because they are not also fighting against adult hunger?  Are people who complain about the persecution of Christians hypocrites because they don't complain about the persecution of all religions?  I don't see you whimpering and crying about groups like those.  

Give it up Fred.  Larry has been shown all these arguments...he will never admit to being anything other than right (and slightly better than the rest of us).

It has just been amusing to watch him spin in circles for days now. 

[fredtoast]

(02-04-2016, 02:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If folks that fight hunger said: You are hungry because this person is causing you to be hungry, while ignoring the fact that you are hungry because of something you are doing to yourself and then told the hungry folks that we are going to "help" you by focusing on the smaller reason why you are hungry because you will like me better if I don't point out the fact that most of you are hungry is because of something you are going to yourself. The yes those folks would be hypocrites.

BLM does not do this.

The black community does not do this.

Here is the problem.  When groups like BLM claim there are racists cops out there white folks like you could just say "That is right.  There are some racists cops out there.  We need to address the problem"  But instead you say "There are no racists cops.  It is all your fault."


I don't know why it is so hard for some white people to admit that there are racists white people.  Well, actually I do understand why some white folks refuse to admit it.  .  .  .  



"The man doth protest too much methinks"

[*bfine32*]

(02-04-2016, 03:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: BLM does not do this.

The black community does not do this.

So where is the outrage and marches from BLM in response to 51 black people being killed in Chicago last month alone?

As I said; "I get it". It makes them more beholding to you if you can say: "Look what we are doing for you and look what the racists are doing to you". Instead of saying you should look inward and not call for the murder of LEOs.

Nowhere have I said there are no racists cops. That's just you making stuff up in an attempt to support a feeble point and equate someone to a racist. The truly sad part is the more guilable will believe it.

Voters Lives Matter.

[BmorePat87]

(02-02-2016, 11:49 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Considering [BLM's]... focus on the police and justice system

[fredtoast]

(02-04-2016, 03:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nowhere have I said there are no racists cops. 

Then why are you opposed to doing something to solve this problem?

[fredtoast]

(02-04-2016, 03:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As I said; "I get it". It makes them more beholding to you if you can say: "Look what we are doing for you and look what the racists are doing to you". Instead of saying you should look inward and not call for the murder of LEOs.

This is getting ridiculous.  there have been dozens of links PROVING that they are looking inward and addressing the problem of black-on-black violence within black communities.  But for some reason you demand that they should be come to your white neighborhood and protesting about it there instead of inside black communities where it is actually happening.

And why the hell would I care if they are "beholden to me".  What does that even mean?  Who thinks like that?  Just because I am in favor of justice you think I am pandering to black people?

How would you respond if I said the only reason you support Christian values is because you want Christians to be beholden to you?  Would you think that made any sense?

You come up with some of the craziest arguments.

[*bfine32*]

(02-04-2016, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is getting ridiculous.  there have been dozens of links PROVING that they are looking inward and addressing the problem of black-on-black violence within black communities.  But for some reason you demand that they should be come to your white neighborhood and protesting about it there instead of inside black communities where it is actually happening.

And why the hell would I care if they are "beholden to me".  What does that even mean?  Who thinks like that?  Just because I am in favor of justice you think I am pandering to black people?

How would you respond if I said the only reason you support Christian values is because you want Christians to be beholden to you?  Would you think that made any sense?

You come up with some of the craziest arguments.

The arguement is simply questioning the motives of BLM. An organization heavily funded by the Democracy Alliance and one that has shown to be divisive in the past. Somehow this has lead you to channel your inner Kanye West and assert "bfine don't like black people".

Here's some insight on the Democratic Alliance:

Quote:In 2012, the Democracy Alliance ceased funding a number of prominent progressive organizations. According to the Huffington Post, "The groups dropped by the Democracy Alliance tend to be those that work outside the [Democratic] party's structure." This move cost the Democracy Alliance the support of Soros ally Peter B. Lewis, the billionaire founder of Progressive Auto Insurance.[13]
According to the Huffington Post, the Democracy Alliance "is largely divided into two camps: one that prefers to focus on electing Democrats to office, and another that argues for more attention to movement and progressive infrastructure building in order to create a power center independent of the Democratic Party apparatus."[14]
In 2015, the Democracy Alliance announced a new strategy called "2020 Vision."[9]
The strategy is centered on electing more Democrats to state level offices to build its political influence by 2020. The Democracy Alliance plans to raise more than $150 million over five years to assist more than 30 groups, including organizations focused on battles to increase the minimum wage, oppose voter ID laws, address global warming and reduce the influence of money in elections.

Given this, why would anybody think the true motive of the "movement" might be political? I have not mentioned any other equal rights organization, as there are those dedicatedto improving race relations and working toward equality. I'm just of the opinion the BLM is not one of them.

So you can take your same tired accusation of racism/racist and share it with those that are guliable enough to believe it; simply because I question the motives of an organization that exploits black-folk to achieve their true desires. I think you've got one or two around here buying it.

[GMDino]

(02-04-2016, 04:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The arguement is simply questioning the motives of BLM. An organization heavily funded by the Democracy Alliance and one that has shown to be divisive in the past. Somehow this has lead you to channel your inner Kanye West and assert "bfine don't like black people".

Here's some insight on the Democratic Alliance:


Given this, why would anybody think the true motive of the "movement" might be political? I have not mentioned any other equal rights organization, as there are those dedicatedto improving race relations and working toward equality. I'm just of the opinion the BLM is not one of them.

So you can take your same tired accusation of racism/racist and share it with those that are guliable enough to believe it; simply because I question the motives of an organization that exploits black-folk to achieve their true desires. I think you've got one or two around here buying it.

I have to admit I had never heard of that group...so I did a search for info on their relationship to BLM

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/major-donors-consider-funding-black-lives-matter-215814

Quote:Some of the biggest donors on the left plan to meet behind closed doors next week in Washington with leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement and their allies to discuss funding the burgeoning protest movement, POLITICO has learned.


The meetings are taking place at the annual winter gathering of the Democracy Alliance major liberal donor club, which runs from Tuesday evening through Saturday morning and is expected to draw Democratic financial heavyweights, including Tom Steyer and Paul Egerman.
Story Continued Below


The DA, as the club is known in Democratic circles, is recommending its donors step up check writing to a handful of endorsed groups that have supported the Black Lives Matter movement. And the club and some of its members also are considering ways to funnel support directly to scrappier local groups that have utilized confrontational tactics to inject their grievances into the political debate.

It’s a potential partnership that could elevate the Black Lives Matter movement and heighten its impact. But it’s also fraught with tension on both sides, sources tell POLITICO.

The various outfits that comprise the diffuse Black Lives Matter movement prize their independence. Some make a point of not asking for donations. They bristle at any suggestion that they’re susceptible to being co-opted by a deep-pocketed national group ― let alone one with such close ties to the Democratic Party establishment like the Democracy Alliance.

And some major liberal donors are leery about funding a movement known for aggressive tactics ― particularly one that has shown a willingness to train its fire on Democrats, including presidential candidates Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders.

“Major donors are usually not as radical or confrontational as activists most in touch with the pain of oppression,” said Steve Phillips, a Democracy Alliance member and significant contributor to Democratic candidates and causes. He donated to a St. Louis nonprofit group called the Organization for Black Struggle that helped organize 2014 Black Lives Matter-related protests in Ferguson, Missouri, over the police killing of a black teenager named Michael Brown. And Phillips and his wife, Democracy Alliance board member Susan Sandler, are in discussions about funding other groups involved in the movement.

That seems to be a *bit* different than "An organization heavily funded by the Democracy Alliance ".

Rather it seems this group is asking some of its members to consider the donations.  

That article is from November of 2015 so in the last 4 four months maybe some of them have...but I'd say your premise is flawed on that point.


From the same article:

Quote:The Democracy Alliance was created in 2005 by a handful of major donors, including billionaire financier George Soros and Taco Bell heir Rob McKay to build a permanent infrastructure to advance liberal ideas and causes. Donors are required to donate at least $200,000 a year to recommended groups, and their combined donations to those groups now total more than $500 million. Endorsed beneficiaries include the Center for American Progress think tank, the liberal attack dog Media Matters and the Democratic data firm Catalist, though members also give heavily to Democratic politicians and super PACs that are not part of the DA’s core portfolio. While the Democracy Alliance last year voted to endorse a handful of groups focused on engaging African-Americans in politics ― some of which have helped facilitate the Black Lives movement ― the invitation to movement leaders is a first for the DA, and seems likely to test some members’ comfort zones.


“Movements that are challenging the status quo and that do so to some extent by using direct action or disruptive tactics are meant to make people uncomfortable, so I’m sure we have partners who would be made uncomfortable by it or think that that’s not a good tactic,” said DA President Gara LaMarche. “But we have a wide range of human beings and different temperaments and approaches in the DA, so it’s quite possible that there are people who are a little concerned, as well as people who are curious or are supportive. This is a chance for them to meet some of the leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement, and understand the movement better, and then we’ll take stock of that and see where it might lead.”


According to a Democracy Alliance draft agenda obtained by POLITICO, movement leaders will be featured guests at a Tuesday dinner with major donors. The dinner, which technically precedes the official conference kickoff, will focus on “what kind of support and resources are needed from the allied funders during this critical moment of immediate struggle and long-term movement building.”


The groups that will be represented include the Black Youth Project 100, The Center for Popular Democracy and the Black Civic Engagement Fund, according to the organizer, a DA member named Leah Hunt-Hendrix. An heir to a Texas oil fortune, Hunt-Hendrix helps lead a coalition of mostly young donors called Solidaire that focuses on movement building. It’s donated more than $200,000 to the Black Lives Matter movement since Brown’s killing. According to its entry on a philanthropy website, more than $61,000 went directly to organizers and organizations on the ground in Ferguson and Baltimore, where the death of Freddie Gray in police custody in April sparked a more recent wave of Black Lives-related protests. An additional $115,000 went to groups that have sprung up to support the movement.


She said her goal at the Democracy Alliance is to persuade donors to “use some of the money that’s going into the presidential races for grass-roots organizing and movement building.” And she brushed aside concerns that the movement could hurt Democratic chances in 2016. “Black Lives Matter has been pushing Bernie, and Bernie has been pushing Hillary. Politics is a field where you almost have to push your allies hardest and hold them accountable,” she said. “That’s exactly the point of democracy,” she said.

That view dovetails with the one that LaMarche has tried to instill in the Democracy Alliance, which had faced internal criticism in 2012 for growing too close to the Democratic Party.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/major-donors-consider-funding-black-lives-matter-215814#ixzz3zELCzzSu

So they may now be donating.

Carry on.

[fredtoast]

(02-04-2016, 04:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The arguement is simply questioning the motives of BLM. 

What do you think their motives are?  I don't see how you could claim they are just trying to promote the Demoratic Party when they have protested in many cities that are ran by Democrats, and have protested during campaign speeches by Democratis candidates. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

All I have heard you claim is that they were hypocrites because they don't care about black-on-black violence. 

Seems to me you are trying to come up with a new argument since your last one failed so badly.

[*bfine32*]

(02-04-2016, 04:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What do you think their motives are?  I don't see how you could claim they are just trying to promote the Demoratic Party when they have protested in many cities that are ran by Democrats, and have protested during campaign speeches by Democratis candidates. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

All I have heard you claim is that they were hypocrites because they don't care about black-on-black violence. 

Seems to me you are trying to come up with a new argument since your last one failed so badly.

No doubt i should have addresssed BLM in my orginal post in the latest back and forth where you attempt to label those that do not exploit black people racist.....

bfine32 Wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/02/01/chicago-records-51-homicides-january-highest-toll-since-2000/79632136/


BLM. Where is the protest?

Hey wait a minute...

You have heard me claim that their supporters' primary concern is political and vote acquision. They damn sure do not care about race relations given their divisive nature and they may care about rights for blacks, but that is just ancillary.

But if it somehow makes you feel less feeble roll with the "You changed your arguement because I destroyed the point you orginally tried to make" theme.

[fredtoast]

(02-04-2016, 05:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You have heard me claim that their supporters' primary concern is political and vote acquision.

Actually if I had heard you make that point I would have asked why the protested at Hillary and Bernie's campaign speeches.  Why are they wanting Democratic mayors thrown out of office all over the country?  Are they working for Republicans?

I have heard ypou accuse me of supporting BLM in order to get them to vote for Democrats, but I have never heard you say that BLM is trying to help democrats.

[GMDino]

I'm going to attach this article to this thread because it covers the year 2015.  And the more recent posts about Chicago crime are locked. 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-always-calls-out-chicago-city-closest-mar-lago-has-n722056

Quote:Trump Always Calls Out Chicago, but City Closest to Mar-a-Lago Had Comparable Crime Rate in 2015



Chicago is the poster city for violent crime to President Trump, but he's got some mean streets right in his Florida backyard.

The city of West Palm Beach, which sits just across the Intracoastal Waterway from Trump's palatial Mar-a-Lago Resort — aka the Winter White House — on exclusive Palm Beach, had a violent crime rate in 2015 that was equal to that of the Windy City, according to federal crime records.

There were 23 homicides in a city of just 104,919 residents. And the rate of violent crime, which also includes rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults, was 9 for every 1,000 residents — the same as the far bigger Chicago, records show.
[/url]
While Trump regularly rails about crime in the city that is the hometown of his predecessor Barack Obama and birthplace of Hillary Clinton, he's not said a peep about the past troubles in the city that he drives through every time he comes to Florida.

That has not gone unnoticed by community activists like Ricky Aiken, who has been working hard with West Palm Beach Mayor Jeri Muoio and the local police to keep local crime in check.

"Trump is a guy who lives over there," Aiken told NBC News, referring to Palm Beach. "If he is serious about making changes in the inner cities, he would be welcome. But people like him tend to avoid communities like mine."

Other than the 33-story Trump Plaza, which is the tallest building in town (and which he no longer owns) and the Trump International Golf Club (which he still owns), Trump has a relatively small public footprint in West Palm Beach.
Play


The Trump Foundation has kicked in $25,000 for the Palm Beach Zoo, $5,000 to the Palm Beach Opera, and $1,000 to the Pediatric Oncology Support Team Inc. — all located in the city, according to published reports.

And during one of the presidential debates with Clinton, Trump complained that he never gets credit for opening a golf course where there is "no discrimination against African-Americans, against Muslims, against nobody."

But Trump mistakenly said it was located in "Palm Beach, Florida," which he alternately described as a "tough community" and "probably the wealthiest community there is in the world."

For that, Trump was zinged by Palm Beach Post writer Barbara Marshall.

"The only gangs on the island are the legions of designer-clad matrons thronging Worth Avenue during the season," it read. "Nor is anyone likely to riot over injustice, unless the B&T runs out of gin for G&Ts."

(B&T refers to the exclusive Bath & Tennis Club, where the old money WASPs still run the show. G&T is short for gin and tonics.)

In the most recent available crime records, meaning the first six months of 2016, the city of Palm Beach recorded no homicides, no rapes, no robberies and just one aggravated assault.

Since the election, what little Trump has seen of West Palm Beach (WPB) has been through the windows of his fortified SUV on the 20 minute or so sprint from Palm Beach International Airport (which is actually located in WPB) to Mar-a-Lago.

"Kind of driving through," was how WPB Police Chief Sarah Mooney characterized Trump's impact on her city during a group telephone interview with an NBC reporter.

"He might come here to come to the performing arts center or have dinner at some of our marvelous restaurants," Mayor Muoio added. "That's about it."

Located about 70 miles north of Miami, West Palm Beach has long lived in the shadow of Palm Beach, the winter playground for generations of rich and famous folks. And most of the homicides happened in historically African-American neighborhoods like Coleman Park, which has sent workers streaming across the Flagler Bridge to serve the rich and famous for over a century.

Mayor Muoio, who like Trump hails from New York City, bristles at crimes comparisons to Chicago.

"We're a very different place from Chicago," she said. "We did have a spike in 2015 ... it was very upsetting to us all. Young black men shooting young black men."

But unlike Chicago, where most of the violence is gang-related, what happened in West Palm Beach was fueled by "historic personal beefs," she said.

"We don't have traditional gangs, or ongoing gang activity," the mayor said. "Back in the day when guns were not as readily available there would be fights.
Now, unfortunately, young people have access to guns and use them."

The Rev. Kevin Jones, who is a special assistant to the mayor, agreed.

"It's more guys on a different street or different neighborhood having issues with one another," Jones said. "It became very retaliatory."

Also, unlike Chicago, the homicide wave that washed over West Palm Beach didn't last. Last year, the number of murders dropped sharply from 23 in 2015 to 10 — although the total number of violent crimes climbed from 924 in 2015 to 955 last year, records show.

"Since 2007 our crime rate has steadily gone down," Muoio said. "There will always be peaks,spikes that happen. Overall there is a significant downward trend."

When kids started killing each other in the hot summer of 2015, Mooney said "we immediately upped our patrols in the area."

"The area where the spike was is very small," the chief said. "We would infiltrate those neighborhoods with our patrols."

They also got local religious leaders involved and were able to quickly identify some of the potential troublemakers.

"When one side of the neighborhood had an incident the other side would be next," said Mooney. "We tried to do almost home visit type interventions to keep things from getting worse. "

Jones was tasked with organizing marches through the affected communities so on nights when tensions ran high residents could be "part of taking it back."

"We would have big marches, two to three hundred people, where we walked the neighborhood and had a moment of silence," Jones said.

Even before the outburst of mayhem in 2015 the city was working hard to integrate its traditionally white male police force, including launching an explorer program designed to get minority kids interested in careers as police officers.

"We're trying to grow our own cops," Mooney said, adding that two former explorers are due to graduate soon from the police academy.

John Smykla, a criminal justice professor at Florida Atlantic University, said the West Palm Beach police deserve credit for trying out new things like [url=http://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/body-cameras-win-converts-among-police-officers-beat-n566311]body cameras and for making an extra effort to reach out to minority communities.

"They're very community-centric," he said. "They are willing to innovate and try new things. The result is that citizen complaints are down ... on both sides of the fence."

Mayoral spokeswoman Kathleen Walter said West Palm Beach has its problems, but so do a lot of cities. And the rest of the county has been grappling with a heroin epidemic that has been chronicled by The Palm Beach Post.

"Are we getting some attention because we have a famous neighbor? For sure," she said. "But this has always been an alluring community and I think there are a lot of residents here who are happy."

Despite all these efforts, Aiken said there are still places in town where it gets dangerous after dark.

"Things are better but we're not there yet," said Aiken. "A lot of kids grow up in West Palm Beach thinking that crime is kind of what you are expected to do."

Aiken would know — he was one of them. The son of an absent father and drug-addicted mother, he was raised by an alcoholic grandmother in the Dunbar Village housing project, which became infamous in 2007 when up to 10 men raped a 35-year-old woman and forced her to perform sex acts on her 12-year-old son.

Aiken said he was following in the footsteps of his drug-dealing older brothers when fate in the form of an Urban Youth Impact summer program — and a married couple that adopted him — set him on a different path.

Now Aiken runs Inner City Innovators, which helps young black men break out of the cycle of poverty and crime.

"They don't have role models in the community," he said. "There are no father figures."

And many of them, he said, are so trapped in their neighborhoods they've never even been to the ritzy Palm Beach.

"I talk to people all the time who would never cross the bridge out of fear of being stopped, arrested," he said. "It's never happened to me, but I understand that fear."

Aiken said on the rare occasions when he ventures into Trump's neighborhood, he goes to look at the Atlantic Ocean and to collect his thoughts.

"It's a different world over there," he said. 

[*michaelsean*]

(05-18-2017, 01:48 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'm going to attach this article to this thread because it covers the year 2015.  And the more recent posts about Chicago crime are locked. 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-always-calls-out-chicago-city-closest-mar-lago-has-n722056

Did somebody really take the time to research and write all of that?

[BmorePat87]

(05-18-2017, 02:46 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Did somebody really take the time to research and write all of that?

The numbers were probably already compiled by the FBI.

The good thing is we're spending millions a weekend in security for Mar-a-Lago, so the crime rate is definitely down now.