A Few Enigmas For Democrats

[BFritz21]

For the liberals on the board, I figured I'd see if they have an answer to these questions:

Quote:(1) Isn't it weird that in America our flag and our culture offend so many people, but our benefits don't?

This is a perfect question in a time when people expect everything to be handed to them but are offended by opposing points of view.

Quote:(2) How can the federal government ask U.S. citizens to pay back student loans, when illegal aliens are receiving a free education?

I'd love to ask a Democrat this question to their face because the irony is crippling.

Quote:(3) Only in America are legal citizens labeled "racists" and "Nazis," but illegal aliens are called "Dreamers."

Why aren't citizens labeled dreamers if they break a law trying to better their own lives?

Quote:(4) Liberals say, "If confiscating all guns saves just one life, it's worth it." Well then, if deporting all illegals saves just one life, wouldn't that be worth it?

This is a HUGE question that I'd love to see a liberal answer.

Quote:(5) I can't quite figure out how you can proudly wave the flag of another country but consider it punishment to be sent back there.

Great point.......... that's when you know you're just using the country but don't intend on honoring the country or its citizens.

Quote:(6) The Constitution: It doesn't need to be rewritten; it needs to be reread.

People forget what made this country great.

Quote:( 7) William F. Buckley said: "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other points of view and are then shocked and offended when they discover there are other points of view."

That's exactly why liberals can never succeed as a whole.......... too divided.

Their entire base is that everyone should be entitled to everything while being able to do their own thing, like somehow a whole country of people on their own makes us a healthy whole.

Quote:(8) Joseph Sobran said: "'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."

Scary how we're raising our kids that the new American Dream is that you're handed everything, when the old American Dream was working your ass off to get ahead in life.

I was blessed to be raised fairly comfortable and never had any big needs (we weren't exactly spoiled because we didn't come into money until I was in 7th grade. and by then I already had my personality set as someone that works for everything and wasn't just handed things in life), but my father grew up dirt poor, worked his ass off in high school, went to UD (Dayton) on an academic full ride, started off as a low level accountant, worked his way up the ladder, and eventually bought his way into a small accounting firm, which he then helped (played the biggest role in) it grow into a large, successful firm.

That's what America should be.......... working your ass off and making something of yourself, but we're becoming a nation of entitled babies who think that they should be successful just for being born and given every advantage just because they're alive.

[Benton]

I'm not a liberal, but I'll play.

1- This is one of those divisive blanket statements that's absurd. 'Don't like our flag, then you ain't 'Merican!' Except there's an insanely small minority of people who really get upset about the flag. Even most of the whole kneeling protests have zero to do with the flag. Think about it. Go to a game or just walk down the street... how many people are setting flags on fire or protesting a flag? Most folks haven't seen anyone in person doing anything to protest a flag.

And I'm not even touching culture as there isn't an American culture. That's made up to sell Chevy's (which are made in Mexico now) and Coke. That's what makes America great: it's everybody's culture.

2- They don't, by and large.

And I'll say this about student loans: don't want them, learn a trade or find a field that has a high enough demand they'll forgive them. MY wife's a nurse. She doesn't always like the profession, but the demand is high enough and her grades are high enough, her student loans are next to nothing (comparatively).

3- Well... if they are, they are.

If you're a Nazi, you're a Nazi. If you're a racist, you're a racist. If you're a Democrat, you're a Democrat. If you're a Republican, you're a Republican. If you are part of a demographic, that's what you are.

Dreamers is a term given to soften the stance on a specific group of illegals that, by and large, are here because of a broken immigration system that's broken by design to further the need for litigators and legislators. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be here, or if the name is an appropriate one, but Nazis getting their feelings hurt because they're called Nazis is something I can't understand.

4- All liberals don't say that. You'll find liberal gun enthusiasts and conservatives who hate guns.

As far as the sentiment, I think both are a pretty foolish approach. Banning guns doesn't end gun violence any more than banning illegal immigration prevents illegal immigration.

5- I don't disagree with that one. Although I haven't heard of it happening outside of some high schools in California (I think it was), to which I'll say... teenagers are dumb. How can I apply that blanket statement? Because it's true.

6- What made this country great was a lack of taxes, easy access to land and nostalgia. Oh, and slave labor.

We have none of that now.

I'm not saying the Constitution needs to be rewritten, but the idea that a document written hundreds of years ago before we'd broached the idea of expanding or having a standing military is puerile.

7- Again, I don't think applying broad statements really warrants a discussion. It's like saying all conservatives are backwards morons. It's simply not true and doesn't really do anything to further a democracy to try and paint either of the two major sides with a broad brush.

8- The old American Dream is dead. It was, as previously said about culture, mostly there to sell stuff. White picket fence, two car garage, etc. But the idea of the dream (work hard, get ahead) isn't dead because of liberals, it's dead because of capitalism run afoul.

Used to, you succeeded, you reaped the benefits. And if you failed, you suffered the loss. We just elected a guy who ... thanks to capitalism run afoul ... became a multi-millionaire by repeatedly failing and cheating. He's the epitome of common people working hard and a small population benefiting significantly from that labor.

There's room for conservatives and liberals alike. But as long as both sides think there isn't, guys profiting from their division will continue to get richer.

[BmorePat87]

A lot of false premises and loaded questions, but I'll make an attempt to address them as best as possible.

1. Does our flag and culture offend a ton of people? Not sure, but it is possible to both support the freedoms in our nation and also think that we still have a need to improve.

2. Not enough context to answer this. What education is being given for free?

3. Anyone can be labeled a racist and a Nazi if they are one. DREAMer is used to refer to people who qualify for the provisions of the DREAM Act enacted by states and covered in the Obama executive order. Not sure what the connection between the two is

4. Mainstream liberals support gun control not confiscating guns. Also, most support deporting immigrants who commit criminal acts.

5. Not sure who calls anything a punishment, but I'm assuming many people have a cultural connection to their flag even if they disagree with the government.

6. It was designed to be amended when necessary.

7. He said that in 1959. More recently he had called HIV "a special curse of the homosexuals". I don't think the views of liberals in the 50's from someone who died 10 years ago is really relevant in 2018, especially since most people are guilty of not wanting to listen to other sides.

8. Joseph Sobran was a holocaust denier that blamed Jews for 9/11 and Communism. I don't think his quote is particularly accurate.

[BFritz21]

1. Yep.

Quote:The day after the election, some people at Hampshire College reacted to the news of Donald Trump’s victory by calling for the removal of the American flag at the center of campus, saying it was a symbol of racism and hatred. That night, some lowered it. And the following night — sometime before dawn on Veterans Day — people burned it.

The flag was quickly replaced, but the college board announced that it would be flown at half-staff, “both to acknowledge the grief and pain experienced by so many and to enable the full complexity of voices and experiences to be heard.”

Just like those safe spaces people needed after the election and how a lot of people needed days off work.

2. Scholarships For Undocumented Students:

Quote:While they may seem scarce, there are plenty of scholarships for undocumented students. Not all scholarships will explicitly call for "undocumented" students - they may require students to have a specific status such as DACA, AB 540, etc. Some scholarships may not even ask about immigration status or citizenship, so you may qualify for those scholarships if you are currently undocumented. Make sure to check your state's immigration laws and policies when applying for scholarships and other forms of financial aid, in addition to reading all scholarship eligibility requirements.

3. So why aren't people that steal cars or anything to make money to better their lives called "dreamers"? They're both breaking the law.

4. You both acknowledge that all don't, but some do, and even the ones that don't go to that extreme, the premise is still the same.

5. It happens a lot of places.

6. Amended, but not completely shit on and going completely liberal in the almost opposite direction.

7. If you look at how backwards everything is and how everyone wants things their way, I'd say it fits pretty well. Liberals want a nation of individuals when a major motto is United we stand, divided we fall.

8. It's only dead because no one thinks that they have to work for anything anymore. I would argue that it's actually easier now to achieve the American Dream, yet it seems like less are doing it.

[Vas Deferens]

You are a dreamer brad. I hope you know that we ALL love you. Sleep upright tight buddy.

[Au165]

So I think Benton basically answered all of the loaded questions pretty spot on.

[BmorePat87]

(01-04-2019, 02:10 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: 1.  Yep.


Just like those safe spaces people needed after the election and how a lot of people needed days off work.  

2.  Scholarships For Undocumented Students:


3.  So why aren't people that steal cars or anything to make money to better their lives called "dreamers"?  They're both breaking the law.

4.  You both acknowledge that all don't, but some do, and even the ones that don't go to that extreme, the premise is still the same.

5.  It happens a lot of places.

6.  Amended, but not completely shit on and going completely liberal in the almost opposite direction.

7.  If you look at how backwards everything is and how everyone wants things their way, I'd say it fits pretty well.  Liberals want a nation of individuals when a major motto is United we stand, divided we fall.

8.  It's only dead because no one thinks that they have to work for anything anymore.  I would argue that it's actually easier now to achieve the American Dream, yet it seems like less are doing it.

1. So a college smaller than the high school I teach at flew the flag half staff? Is that suppose to be representative of the whole?

2. So what you were referring to is that there are some scholarships that allow DACA recipients to qualify? Ok.

3. a DREAMer is someone who was brought to the US as a child and has grown up here. The point of the DREAM Act and DACA was/is to allow them to have a legal status so that they can go to college/get a job and also seek legal residency without leaving the country. I understand that comparing them to actual criminals makes it easier for you to justify wanting them out of the country, but it really doesn't help your argument.

4. I disagree with this premise that people who call for gun control are essentially calling for confiscation. 

5. Ok, can't really comment further without an example

6. Examples?

7. This really seems to describe all partisans, conservative and liberal. Part of the problem is the insistence that it's only one side.

8. People are worker longer, wages have been stagnant for decades, there are less quality jobs available that do not require post-secondary degrees, and college prices have risen much faster than inflation. Essentially people are far more saddled with debt just to even begin but they are not earning higher wages than past generations to compensate for this handicap. The idea that people just aren't trying is ludicrous. 

[Benton]

(01-04-2019, 02:10 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: 1.  Yep.


Just like those safe spaces people needed after the election and how a lot of people needed days off work.  

2.  Scholarships For Undocumented Students:


3.  So why aren't people that steal cars or anything to make money to better their lives called "dreamers"?  They're both breaking the law.

4.  You both acknowledge that all don't, but some do, and even the ones that don't go to that extreme, the premise is still the same.

5.  It happens a lot of places.

6.  Amended, but not completely shit on and going completely liberal in the almost opposite direction.

7.  If you look at how backwards everything is and how everyone wants things their way, I'd say it fits pretty well.  Liberals want a nation of individuals when a major motto is United we stand, divided we fall.

8.  It's only dead because no one thinks that they have to work for anything anymore.  I would argue that it's actually easier now to achieve the American Dream, yet it seems like less are doing it.

1. You're applying the story of a few people at a college to a group of tens of millions? Even if you take all the people at that college, you're still talking about probably less than 1%.

Again, using a small minority as an example of the majority is ridiculous. Especially given that what you quoted doesn't give any credence to it being done by liberals. Using them as a magical catch-all for anti-americanism is only heaping malice on discontent.

To the rest, I started to respond , but I'll just say good day.

[GMDino]

Frankly I find conservatives more of an enigma.

They put their country and a flag over their fellow man.

Also they don't like, dancing, music, girls, etc... 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/03/viral-video-shows-college-era-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-dancing/2477646002/

[Dill]

(01-04-2019, 12:15 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: For the liberals on the board, I figured I'd see if they have an answer to these questions:


This is a perfect question in a time when people expect everything to be handed to them but are offended by opposing points of view.

I'd love to ask a Democrat this question to their face because the irony is crippling.

Why aren't citizens labeled dreamers if they break a law trying to better their own lives?

This is a HUGE question that I'd love to see a liberal answer.

Great point..........  that's when you know you're just using the country but don't intend on honoring the country or its citizens.  

People forget what made this country great.

That's exactly why liberals can never succeed as a whole..........  too divided.  

Their entire base is that everyone should be entitled to everything while being able to do their own thing, like somehow a whole country of people on their own makes us a healthy whole.

Scary how we're raising our kids that the new American Dream is that you're handed everything, when the old American Dream was working your ass off to get ahead in life.

I was blessed to be raised fairly comfortable and never had any big needs (we weren't exactly spoiled because we didn't come into money until I was in 7th grade. and by then I already had my personality set as someone that works for everything and wasn't just handed things in life), but my father grew up dirt poor, worked his ass off in high school, went to UD (Dayton) on an academic full ride, started off as a low level accountant, worked his way up the ladder, and eventually bought his way into a small accounting firm, which he then helped (played the biggest role in) it grow into a large, successful firm.

That's what America should be..........  working your ass off and making something of yourself, but we're becoming a nation of entitled babies who think that they should be successful just for being born and given every advantage just because they're alive.

????  This sounds like the product of a group think session where no one has to recognize and work through objections.  Who are the people who are "just handed things"?  Can you provide examples of what is "just handed" to people and who is handing it?

When you say liberals think "everyone is entitled to everything," I have no idea what you are talking about or whom you are referring to. Are you referring to the extension of civil rights to previously excluded groups like women, blacks and gays? Public education, highways, what???

So your father was just handed a full ride?

[Dill]

(01-04-2019, 09:31 AM)Au165 Wrote: So I think Benton basically answered all of the loaded questions pretty spot on.

Benton and Pat both.  Left nothing for the rest of us.

[BmorePat87]

(01-04-2019, 11:36 AM)GMDino Wrote: Frankly I find conservatives more of an enigma.

They put their country and a flag over their fellow man.

Also they don't like, dancing, music, girls, etc... 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/01/03/viral-video-shows-college-era-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-dancing/2477646002/

Who even buys a Boswell jersey?

[GMDino]

(01-04-2019, 11:56 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Who even buys a Boswell jersey?

The random guy in the photo?

His injury was probably the biggest difference between the last two seasons.  

I haven't gone to look it up but I bet the Steelers won 4-5 games by less than 7 points (at least 3 on a last minute FG) last year...and they lost those games this year.

That said...Baltimore's Dancing Kicker probably sells a bunch of jerseys too.  

[*Nately120*]

I was going to answer these, but you mentioned the flag and I got so mad just thinking about that thing that I couldn't continue.

[Belsnickel]

As one of the center-left liberals on the board, I'll answer from my point of view.

1. Does this mean inside or outside of the country? Inside of the country, I find the culture of some people to be offensive simply because I don't like nationalism. Outside of the country, many other folks also see our culture as nationalistic, and that has been a problematic position in history. They also see us as unnecessarily arrogant, especially when it comes to the benefits (getting to the latter part of that) where we have a higher infant mortality rate, lower life expediencies, greater socioeconomic disparity, and other things that point to our citizenry not actually receiving benefits at the same level as other WEIRD nations.

2. Need based aid is available for U.S. citizens as well that prevents them from having to pay for their education. It isn't as much as is required to make up for the rising costs of education that have outpaced inflation for years, and part of that is because of governments not helping to pay for their people to go to college. Higher education used to be subsidized by the states at a much higher percentage, but not any longer. Of course, all of the federal aid (and much of the state and institutional aid, as well because it requires filing a FAFSA) is not available to an undocumented immigrant. So there are some programs designed for those students to offset costs like the programs available for citizens.

3. This isn't an "only in America" thing. Also, Benton covered this how I would've. I'm not retyping his response.

4. I've legitimately never heard a liberal say that. But, to be fair, I am also a part of the Rural Democrats caucus here which is a bunch of liberal rednecks who like to go hunting and fishing. As for the overall point, I would disagree with that premise entirely. But that is more because I'm a technocrat and so I look at policy in a different way than most. That one life saved by deporting all undocumented immigrants could have caused several hundred others to die because of the funding used to deport the immigrants being funneled from other, more critical, programs. What if the money came from infrastructure, and a bridge that needed repairs collapsed during rush hour? What if an airport runway was in disrepair and caused a loaded international flight to crash upon landing? Those have to be calculated in, as well.

5. Loving your country but being ashamed/embarrassed/scared of the current conditions there is completely normal. It's what many people are dealing with right now here in the US.

6. The founding fathers only expected the Constitution to last one, maybe two generations. I can't remember if it was Madison or Jefferson that discussed this in his writings. They knew that the document they crafted, the government they formed, was one that would need to change with the times. That understanding is what made what they did so great.

7. That is too broad of a statement and doesn't represent the views of the party. As Pat pointed out, that was 60 years ago. The party itself is a centrist party, having abandoned the principals of the New Deal that made it a powerhouse and likely caused the criticisms he levied.

8. That is not at all what the new American Dream is. The American Dream is still defined as it once was. The problem is that the American Dream is now almost unattainable and becomes more difficult each year.

[BmorePat87]

(01-04-2019, 12:00 PM)GMDino Wrote: That said...Baltimore's Dancing Kicker probably sells a bunch of jerseys too.  

Yea, but he's also considered the best kicker in the league. He's the Vinatieri and Gostkowski of his generation. 

I'm just surprised Boswell jerseys sell because I thought he was notorious for missing big kicks (could be wrong, just an assumption). 

[GMDino]

(01-04-2019, 12:52 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Yea, but he's also considered the best kicker in the league. He's the Vinatieri and Gostkowski of his generation. 

I'm just surprised Boswell jerseys sell because I thought he was notorious for missing big kicks (could be wrong, just an assumption). 

This year.

Last couple years he was seen as a savior after a season of awful kickers.

I believe it was 2015 when the Suisham got hurt in the pre-season and the Steelers couldn't find anyone to replace him until Boswell.  He even kicked that game winner in the playoff game where the Bengals melted down.

[GMDino]

I hear the GOP thinks women dancing are scandalous.

Wait till they find out Congresswomen dance too! ??

Have a great weekend everyone :) pic.twitter.com/9y6ALOw4F6

— Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@AOC) January 4, 2019

[fredtoast]

(01-04-2019, 02:10 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: 2.  Scholarships For Undocumented Students:

Those are all privately funded scholarships.  They have nothing to do with the government or taxpayers.

[fredtoast]

(01-04-2019, 02:10 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: 1.  Yep.

The day after the election, some people at Hampshire College reacted to the news of Donald Trump’s victory by calling for the removal of the American flag at the center of campus, saying it was a symbol of racism and hatred. That night, some lowered it. And the following night — sometime before dawn on Veterans Day — people burned it.


The flag was quickly replaced, but the college board announced that it would be flown at half-staff, “both to acknowledge the grief and pain experienced by so many and to enable the full complexity of voices and experiences to be heard.”


Just like those safe spaces people needed after the election and how a lot of people needed days off work.  

This is as ridiculous as using the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church to define the beliefs of all Christians.