A Perspective On Immigration

[BFritz21]

This seems to be in line with how Democrats think, but I don't think any of them really consider this aspect of it:

Quote:Let’s say I break into your house. Let’s say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say NO! I like it here.
It’s better than my house.
I’ve made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors.
I’ve done all the things you don’t like to do. I’m hard working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).
According to the protesters, you are required to let me stay in your house.
You are required to feed me.
You are required to add me to your family’s insurance plan.
You are required to educate my kids.
You are required to provide other benefits to me and my family.
My husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard working and honest (except for that breaking in part).
If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there. It’s only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do and I’m just trying to better myself.
I’m a hard-working and honest person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house. And what a deal it is for me.
I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced and bigoted behavior.

Kind of makes you think, doesn't it?

[*Nately120*]

(02-02-2018, 03:44 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: This seems to be in line with how Democrats think, but I don't think any of them really consider this aspect of it:


Kind of makes you think, doesn't it?

Are you implying that we had no right to take this country from the Native Americans that were here first?  Geez, you liberal softies never just let it go, do you?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-02-2018, 04:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Are you implying that we had no right to take this country from the Native Americans that were here first?  Geez, you liberal softies never just let it go, do you?

Not commenting on the validity of Brad's post, because I don't think it's even necessary, I do feel the need to point out that this overused argument actually makes the case for anti-immigration types.  "You don't want to end up like the Native Americans do you"?

Not to mention the fact that you're also making an argument for large sections of Poland to be returned to Germany and so on and so on.

[BmorePat87]

Quote:Let’s say I break into your house. Let’s say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say NO! I like it here.
It’s better than my house.

So America is one big house, so all citizens are one big family? If only we acted that way... also by insisting that you leave isn't that a formal deportation? At that point you would leave

Quote:I’ve made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors.
I’ve done all the things you don’t like to do. I’m hard working and honest (except for when I broke into your house).

So at this point you're benefiting the economy of my house

Quote:According to the protesters, you are required to let me stay in your house.

It's their right to protest and say that. It's America.

Quote:You are required to feed me.

If you're paying taxes (as most do) and you're eligible, ok. I'm ok with that.

Quote:You are required to add me to your family’s insurance plan.

Same as before

Quote:You are required to educate my kids.

Prudent and if your kids are Americans then in this flawed metaphor they are technically my family so I will educate my family.

Quote:You are required to provide other benefits to me and my family.

If you pay taxes, ok.

Quote:My husband will do all of your yard work because he is also hard working and honest (except for that breaking in part).

A pretty minor thing to worry about considering the benefit of having him.

Quote:If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my RIGHT to be there. It’s only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do and I’m just trying to better myself.

It's their right to protest, yes, that's a fundamental principle of the US.

Quote:I’m a hard-working and honest person, except for well, you know, I did break into your house. And what a deal it is for me.
I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of cold, uncaring, selfish, prejudiced and bigoted behavior.

This falsely assumes they're not paying taxes.

[Dill]

(02-02-2018, 03:44 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: This seems to be in line with how Democrats think, but I don't think any of them really consider this aspect of it:

Kind of makes you think, doesn't it?

So I "discover" this person in my house AFTER she has made all the beds and washed the dishes and swept the floors?

LOL I'll bet THAT happens a lot.

I admit that when a poor person crosses the US border illegally to make a little more money, I do not feel immediately threatened or violated. If that person lives in a trailer with 8 other "violators" while picking lettuce I will therefore buy at a lower price, she somehow doesn't seem to be in my house. Wonder if she is paying taxes too.  If she buys a taco for dinner with her meager wage, is that me being forced to feed her?

Let's alter the analogy a bit. The woman and her husband knock on the door of my house. She offers to clean house for less than I would have offered, and her husband will do my lawn for half what I pay the neighbor boy. And he does it better.  I know they are here illegally, so I say "yes" and as soon as they have finished, I turn them into immigration. No one pickets my house accusing me of selfish bigoted behavior cuz no one knows. 

https://www.mercurynews.com/2013/04/23/exploiting-immigrants-labor-laws-need-to-protect-undocumented-workers-too/

That's what makes me think.

[BFritz21]

(02-02-2018, 04:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Are you implying that we had no right to take this country from the Native Americans that were here first?  Geez, you liberal softies never just let it go, do you?

What SSF said.

[BFritz21]

(02-02-2018, 05:08 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So America is one big house, so all citizens are one big family? If only we acted that way... also by insisting that you leave isn't that a formal deportation? At that point you would leave

America is one big house, and people that I know protect their home and family from intruders.

Is that not how things work in Maryland?

(02-02-2018, 05:08 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So at this point you're benefiting the economy of my house

At the sacrifice of taking money from the people in my house by taking jobs from the people in my house.

And before you say "but it says doing all the things "YOU DON'T LIKE TO DO!"  Guess what?  Most people don't like to do their job.

(02-02-2018, 05:08 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's their right to protest and say that. It's America.

Just because it's their right, doesn't make it ok.

(02-02-2018, 05:08 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: If you're paying taxes (as most do) and you're eligible, ok. I'm ok with that.

(02-02-2018, 05:08 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Prudent and if your kids are Americans then in this flawed metaphor they are technically my family so I will educate my family.

They're not American because they're here illegally.  

(02-02-2018, 05:08 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: A pretty minor thing to worry about considering the benefit of having him.

Except when he takes the job of someone who is here legally and is a citizen.

That's where your logic is flawed in all of this: what gives someone who is here illegally the same rights as someone who is here legally and is doing it all the right way?

(02-02-2018, 05:08 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: If you're paying taxes (as most do) and you're eligible, ok. I'm ok with that.


If you pay taxes, ok.

The costs of the benefits far outweigh the taxes they pay.

[*bfine32*]

(02-02-2018, 04:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Are you implying that we had no right to take this country from the Native Americans that were here first?  Geez, you liberal softies never just let it go, do you?

Of course we had no right to take this country from the Native Americans; however, that has nothing to do with what Brad posted.

[*bfine32*]

(02-02-2018, 05:08 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So America is one big house, so all citizens are one big family? If only we acted that way... also by insisting that you leave isn't that a formal deportation? At that point you would leave



So at this point you're benefiting the economy of my house


It's their right to protest and say that. It's America.


If you're paying taxes (as most do) and you're eligible, ok. I'm ok with that.


Same as before


Prudent and if your kids are Americans then in this flawed metaphor they are technically my family so I will educate my family.


If you pay taxes, ok.



A pretty minor thing to worry about considering the benefit of having him.



It's their right to protest, yes, that's a fundamental principle of the US.



This falsely assumes they're not paying taxes.

Apologies for just picking out one post, but this one struck me. 

Isn't the right to protest reserved for American Citizens? 

[BmorePat87]

(02-02-2018, 10:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Apologies for just picking out one post, but this one struck me. 

Isn't the right to protest reserved for American Citizens? 

I assumed the protestors in his metaphor were citizens who are protesting for liberal policies. 

[*bfine32*]

(02-02-2018, 10:38 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I assumed the protestors in his metaphor were citizens who are protesting for liberal policies. 

Well, I didn't see anything in his metaphor suggested citizen. But who knows 

[BmorePat87]

(02-02-2018, 10:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well, I didn't see anything in his metaphor suggested citizen. But who knows 

Either way, I'm pretty sure the 1st Amendment applies to anyone that is in the US since it's written "Congress shall make no law..." as opposed to say the 2nd Amendment where it says "the right of... shall not be infringed" 


But I guess they just could then be arrested for being here illegally if the people in his story are illegal immigrants who are protesting 

[*bfine32*]

(02-02-2018, 11:24 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Either way, I'm pretty sure the 1st Amendment applies to anyone that is in the US since it's written "Congress shall make no law..." as opposed to say the 2nd Amendment where it says "the right of... shall not be infringed" 


But I guess they just could then be arrested for being here illegally if the people in his story are illegal immigrants who are protesting 

Well I guess we'll just disagree again if you think the Constitution provides non-citizens the "right" to protest the US government. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-02-2018, 11:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well I guess we'll just disagree again if you think the Constitution provides non-citizens the "right" to protest the US government. 

I don't think you have anything resembling an argument here.  Our constitutional protections extend to anyone in the United States, legally or otherwise.  If you're attempting to state that, as you're in the country illegally you should be removed once identified as an illegal alien (hence you are no longer "allowed" to protest), then you should just state that.  That would actually be an arguable position.

[*bfine32*]

(02-03-2018, 12:21 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't think you have anything resembling an argument here.  Our constitutional protections extend to anyone in the United States, legally or otherwise.  If you're attempting to state that, as you're in the country illegally you should be removed once identified as an illegal alien (hence you are no longer "allowed" to protest), then you should just state that.  That would actually be an arguable position.

So do those here illegally have the right to vote?

[JustWinBaby]

We'll see what happens. I don't think Dems want to agree to any deal, because then they can't call Repubs racist and make DACA a huge campaign issue.

Otherwise, the minority party just doesn't want to give away the win. This is the current state of politics. The Dems OWN immigration - I'll be damned if they let Repubs solve it.

On a related note.....we had a deal like 6-8 years ago, and Repubs said Obama blew it by going back on his word. And it was the Repubs fault. But now we have a "Repub" POTUS being blamed for Dems not coming to the table. I thought that was interesting.

[*Nately120*]

(02-02-2018, 08:46 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: What SSF said.

Pshaw!  White man comes here and takes the land from the red man and then the white man drags the black man here...it's only fitting that the brown man wants in on all this. Let 'em all in and let the cream rise to the top!

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-05-2018, 11:14 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The amendments to the Constitution are specific in their language. They use 'citizen' when things are specifically for citizens, and 'people' or 'person(s)' when it applies to all with the jurisdiction of the US. The first amendment uses 'the people' rather than 'citizens', and the courts have keyed in on this in their interpretations over the years.

I know you said you had conceded the point, but I feel like this is a good conversation to have, sometimes.

Thank you for addressing this, as I was going to post a similar point.  Thankfully, due to your three hour head start, I no longer have to.

[BmorePat87]

(02-02-2018, 11:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well I guess we'll just disagree again if you think the Constitution provides non-citizens the "right" to protest the US government. 

There's precedent for non citizens in the US to have their rights protected

https://www.learnliberty.org/blog/t-he-constitutional-rights-of-noncitizens/
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/today%E2%80%99s-question-non-citizens%E2%80%99-rights/


There's limitations, but a peaceful protest wouldn't be one of the things limited. 

[BmorePat87]

(02-03-2018, 12:40 AM)bfine32 Wrote: So do those here illegally have the right to vote?

States could grant them the right to vote  in state and local elections, and if the states did, the amendments pertaining to the right to vote would extend to them as well. 

Currently it is illegal for them to vote in federal elections, however.