A self-proclaimed white nationalist planned a mass terrorist attack

[GMDino]

(02-21-2019, 12:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I've never understood this argument from the pro illegal immigration side,

There is no such thing.

(02-21-2019, 12:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: that somehow the fact that they commit crime at a lower per capita rate than citizens is a selling point.  Anyone here illegally committing a crime is a crime that could, and should have, been prevented.  The fact that they commit a lower rate of crimes is of no comfort to the person who just got mugged, burglarized or assaulted by someone in the country illegally.   Also, trust me it happens fairly regularly, we get a case involving someone in the country illegally on a frequent basis.

Nor is a waste of billions of dollars on a wall that no one seriously believes will do much of anything any comfort to any who is mugged, burglarized or assaulted by anyone.

*IF* the POTUS and his ilk presented the wall in a way that made sense he have more support. But he plays on fear. Rapists, drug dealers, murderers, kidnappers, etc.

He is the one saying it will stop the crime.

(02-21-2019, 12:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Note that this does not mean I have no sympathy for those trying to come here.  I do, and most of them are good, hard working people.  The point is we're either a nation of laws or we aren't  I don't get this buffet style approach to the law in this instance.  

Agreed. And if the system of allowing them to seek asylum had even just been left alone we could be working on real solutions for the people coming here. (Sadly there is an entire wing of the GOP that wants to just stop them all...and that isn't helping.) My belief is the answer is somewhere between "open borders" and "giant wall". But DJT has a campaign promise to fulfill to Ann Coulter, Rush and a bunch of people who really believe what he says, so here we are.

So my comment about "we need a wall" in the OP was a jab at those who really believe that the wall will stop crime versus the reality that these crimes are usually done by citizens. Not just that immigrants commit crimes and a lower rate per capita but that the argument that keeping them out is a way to keep people safe is ridiculous.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-21-2019, 12:33 PM)GMDino Wrote: There is no such thing.

Living in CA as I do, I'm going to have to wholeheartedly disagree with you on this one.  In fact some Dem politicians have said migration is an inherent right for those living south of the US.

Quote:Nor is a waste of billions of dollars on a wall that no one seriously believes will do much of anything any comfort to any who is  mugged, burglarized or assaulted by anyone.

*IF* the POTUS and his ilk presented the wall in a way that made sense he have more support.  But he plays on fear.  Rapists, drug dealers, murderers, kidnappers, etc.

He is the one saying it will stop the crime.

[url=https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/factcheck/build-a-wall-and-crime-will-fall-says-trump-but-its-been-falling-anyway/ar-BBSEoRe][/url]
It will stop crime, as border fences already in place have shown.  It won't do anything like eliminate it, but a solid border wall will assist the Border Patrol in doing their job.  You won't get an argument from me about Trump being a demagogue.

Quote:Agreed.  And if the system of allowing them to seek asylum had even just been left alone we could be working on real solutions for the people coming here.  (Sadly there is an entire wing of the GOP that wants to just stop them all...and that isn't helping.)  My belief is the answer is somewhere between "open borders" and "giant wall".  But DJT has a campaign promise to fulfill to Ann Coulter, Rush and a bunch of people who really believe what he says, so here we are.

We've all had this discussion before.  Neither side really wants to fix this problem.  The GOP likes the cheap labor for their business interests and the Dems like the expansion of their voter base.

Quote:So my comment about "we need a wall" in the OP was a jab at those who really believe that the wall will stop crime versus the reality that these crimes are usually done by citizens.  Not just that immigrants commit crimes and a lower rate per capita but that the argument that keeping them out is a way to keep people safe is ridiculous.

It will stop crime, it won't eliminate it.  Prophylactic solutions are difficult to quantify, seeing as you can't prove a negative.  It is self evident that making it more difficult to sneak into the country will make it more difficult to smuggle anything into the country.  Again, it won't do anything like eliminate this type of crime, but it will prevent some of it.  Whether the amount it will stop is worth the expense is where the argument gets political.  

[Dill]

(02-21-2019, 12:10 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote:
From my understanding the wall has been touted as a way to prevent such problems from crossing into the US. But you seem to suggest that the wall is about stopping crime in general. Who said this?

I thought Dino was specifically referring to crimes that cannot be stopped by a wall--this being an example of domestic right-wing terrorism.

I have never heard anyone argue that the wall is a good way to prevent home grown terrorism from "crossing" into the U.S.

To stop that we would be better off if our leaders toned down the "deep state" and "fake news" rhetoric, while toning up the message that all forms of scapegoating based upon religion and ethnicity and "race" are bad.

[GMDino]

(02-21-2019, 12:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Living in CA as I do, I'm going to have to wholeheartedly disagree with you on this one.  In fact some Dem politicians have said migration is an inherent right for those living south of the US.

"migration"...not illegal immigration. Come through the right way. But let them through.

(02-21-2019, 12:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: [url=https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/factcheck/build-a-wall-and-crime-will-fall-says-trump-but-its-been-falling-anyway/ar-BBSEoRe][/url]
It will stop crime, as border fences already in place have shown.  It won't do anything like eliminate it, but a solid border wall will assist the Border Patrol in doing their job.  You won't get an argument from me about Trump being a demagogue.





We've all had this discussion before.  Neither side really wants to fix this problem.  The GOP likes the cheap labor for their business interests and the Dems like the expansion of their voter base.


It will stop crime, it won't eliminate it.  Prophylactic solutions are difficult to quantify, seeing as you can't prove a negative.  It is self evident that making it more difficult to sneak into the country will make it more difficult to smuggle anything into the country.  Again, it won't do anything like eliminate this type of crime, but it will prevent some of it.  Whether the amount it will stop is worth the expense is where the argument gets political.  

The rest we basically agree on. If there is some small amount of illegals it helps border patrol catch that is "reducing crime" just not the crimes the GOP and his minions keep talking about.

It seems, to me, to be a huge waste of money, time and resources that could be spent elsewhere better. But both sides have programs they will same the same thing about.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-20-2019, 11:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: A 1,000 rounds?  

Yeah, glad this shithead was caught, but I did kind of chuckle at that too.

Every time someone gets arrested and has guns, they always state the amount of ammunition like it's some motherlode. Meanwhile it's really not unusual to go through hundreds of rounds in a good shooting/plinking session.

1,000 rounds is like two decent boxes of .22lr. Lol. I mean, you literally buy .22lr by the hundreds. A box of like 525 for $27-30ish dollars. Sure makes it sound scary for people who never have gone shooting, though.

Four guys go trap shooting, and you can very easily use 400 shotgun shells in one day. In a news article, it can sound like a small army's supplies though.

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-21-2019, 01:05 PM)Dill Wrote: I thought Dino was specifically referring to crimes that cannot be stopped by a wall--this being an example of domestic right-wing terrorism.

Considering the wall was never about stopping domestic right wing terrorism I fail to see how connecting this event to the wall makes much sense, which was my point when I addressed Dinos wall remark.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-21-2019, 02:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yeah, glad this shithead was caught, but I did kind of chuckle at that too.

Every time someone gets arrested and has guns, they always state the amount of ammunition like it's some motherlode. Meanwhile it's really not unusual to go through hundreds of rounds in a good shooting/plinking session.

1,000 rounds is like two decent boxes of .22lr. Lol. I mean, you literally buy .22lr by the hundreds. A box of like 525 for $27-30ish dollars. Sure makes it sound scary for people who never have gone shooting, though.

Four guys go trap shooting, and you can very easily use 400 shotgun shells in one day. In a news article, it can sound like a small army's supplies though.

In store ammunition prices being what they are it always makes sense to buy online.  Thankfully as a peace officer I am still able to do so, unlike anyone in CA who is not.  When you buy online it makes sense to buy in bulk to keep the shipping costs down.  Stored properly ammunition lasts "forever", my father still has ammunition from WW2 that we've shot as recently as last month.  It wouldn't be at all unusual to have tens of thousands of rounds in your home.

[GMDino]

(02-21-2019, 02:43 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Considering the wall was never about stopping domestic right wing terrorism I fail to see how connecting this event to the wall makes much sense, which was my point when I addressed Dinos wall remark.

And since domestic right wing terrorism is much more a problem perhaps we should focus there and not on a wall.

But I get that DJT telling his supporters to stop planning to kill people on the other side isn't good for his business or getting votes from said supporters. So he sets up a boogey man and tell them to be afraid of them instead.

[fredtoast]

(02-21-2019, 12:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I've never understood this argument from the pro illegal immigration side, that somehow the fact that they commit crime at a lower per capita rate than citizens is a selling point.  Anyone here illegally committing a crime is a crime that could, and should have, been prevented.  The fact that they commit a lower rate of crimes is of no comfort to the person who just got mugged, burglarized or assaulted by someone in the country illegally.  

But it works both ways.  There are undocumented immigrants who are victims of crimes that would have been committed on US citizens if the immigrant was not here.

So they are saving some citizens from being victims of crimes.

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-21-2019, 03:12 PM)GMDino Wrote: And since domestic right wing terrorism is much more a problem perhaps we should focus there and not on a wall.

How is it "much more of a problem"?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-21-2019, 03:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But it works both ways.  There are undocumented immigrants who are victims of crimes that would have been committed on US citizens if the immigrant was not here.

So they are saving some citizens from being victims of crimes.

Wow, Fred.  That's quite the logic pretzel you've constructed there.  I'll give you credit for an original argument though.

[GMDino]

(02-21-2019, 03:16 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: How is it "much more of a problem"?

A lot. A little. "much".

And, again, I realize it's not something that the right or DJT wants to talk about.

He's tweeting about the fake hate crime and the wall.  That feeds his base.  I just don't buy it.

[Belsnickel]

I ran into someone, today, that I used to hang out with in my teens and early twenties. We'd lost touch probably about 8 years ago, but I ran into him while picking up a Coke Zero after doing some home repairs. We talked for a bit and I realized that this guy was starting down this sort of rabbit hole. It was interesting, because his father was like that, but he always seemed to be a bit rebellious against this sort of thing. Now I'm listening to him spout alt-right and white nationalist talking points and talking about stockpiling for the coming "troubles."

I offered him a fishing trip some time, which he declined on account of his four daughters (and one step-daughter) taking most of his time outside of work. All I can think of is how to prevent him from doing something like this. I don't even care if he's going to be conservative, I just hope that he doesn't end up in jail because he made some poor decisions.

[Belsnickel]

100% chance Trump was briefed on the US Coast Guard domestic terrorist plotting to kill Democrats and reporters BEFORE he tweeted that the NYT is the enemy of the people. His rhetoric is inciting violence. He's going to get someone hurt. He doesn't care.

— Tommy Vietor (@TVietor08) February 20, 2019

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2019, 03:38 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I ran into someone, today, that I used to hang out with in my teens and early twenties. We'd lost touch probably about 8 years ago, but I ran into him while picking up a Coke Zero after doing some home repairs. We talked for a bit and I realized that this guy was starting down this sort of rabbit hole. It was interesting, because his father was like that, but he always seemed to be a bit rebellious against this sort of thing. Now I'm listening to him spout alt-right and white nationalist talking points and talking about stockpiling for the coming "troubles."

I offered him a fishing trip some time, which he declined on account of his four daughters (and one step-daughter) taking most of his time outside of work. All I can think of is how to prevent him from doing something like this. I don't even care if he's going to be conservative, I just hope that he doesn't end up in jail because he made some poor decisions.

Poor decisions like Coke Zero over Diet Coke?

[Belsnickel]

(02-21-2019, 04:03 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Poor decisions like Coke Zero over Diet Coke?

Coke Zero is so much better than Diet Coke, and it doesn't make me quite as gassy.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(02-21-2019, 03:12 PM)GMDino Wrote: And since domestic right wing terrorism is much more a problem perhaps we should focus there and not on a wall.

But I get that DJT telling his supporters to stop planning to kill people on the other side isn't good for his business or getting votes from said supporters.  So he sets up a boogey man and  tell them to be afraid of them instead.

1 guy every now and then vs the k's that cross daily?
Doesn't really compare.

And what ever happened to the FL mail bomber with the Maga Van?

[Benton]

(02-21-2019, 03:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In store ammunition prices being what they are it always makes sense to buy online.  Thankfully as a peace officer I am still able to do so, unlike anyone in CA who is not.  When you buy online it makes sense to buy in bulk to keep the shipping costs down.  Stored properly ammunition lasts "forever", my father still has ammunition from WW2 that we've shot as recently as last month.  It wouldn't be at all unusual to have tens of thousands of rounds in your home.

[*bfine32*]

(02-21-2019, 03:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But it works both ways.  There are undocumented immigrants who are victims of crimes that would have been committed on US citizens if the immigrant was not here.

So they are saving some citizens from being victims of crimes.

So we should build the wall to protect "undocumented" (Left) "illegal" (Right) from coming here and being victims of crime.

We shouldn't arrest killers, because sometimes killers kill other killers in killings that would have been committed on non-killers if the killer was in prison

[Dill]

(02-21-2019, 03:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: A lot. A little. "much".

And, again, I realize it's not something that the right or DJT wants to talk about.

He's tweeting about the fake hate crime and the wall.  That feeds his base.  I just don't buy it.

White nationalists are taking jobs from ordinary Americans. 

Why isn't anyone complaining about that!