Afghanistan

[Tiger Teeth]

(08-17-2021, 09:06 AM)Nately120 Wrote: It will just boil down to bi-partisan politics as usual, won't it? As of now Biden and Trump are the face of the parties and  you have both of them being for withdrawal with the added caveat that the GOP is at odds with the prior "fight 'em over there" republicans and have preached America-first and the notion that we can't provide too much relief to refugees because even if .001% of them are terrorists we are going to pay the price, and so on.

As impactful as this stuff is to human lives and countries, it is going to be smashed through the usual "democrat vs republican" channels as anything else as far as regular American perception is concerned.  Plus, within the next few days we're going to be right back to talking about how masks and vaccines are the most important issues.  This country has made such a concerted effort (particular the GOP shift in the Trump era) to be all about itself and culture wars that it is legimately odd to be reminded that other people being murdered by terrorist sects was once a point of discussion.

Well said man.

[Dill]

(08-17-2021, 08:53 AM)GMDino Wrote: Indeed.

Up until a month ago he was taking credit for the withdrawl.

Seems the Doha agreement crushed morale.
Interesting reporting and interviews with surrendering troops.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/15/afghanistan-military-collapse-taliban/

The Taliban capitalized on the uncertainty caused by the February 2020 agreement reached in Doha, Qatar, between the militant group and the United States calling for a full American withdrawal from Afghanistan. Some Afghan forces realized they would soon no longer be able to count on American air power and other crucial battlefield support and grew receptive to the Taliban’s approaches.

“Some just wanted the money,” an Afghan special forces officer said of those who first agreed to meet with the Taliban. But others saw the U.S. commitment to a full withdrawal as an “assurance” that the militants would return to power in Afghanistan and wanted to secure their place on the winning side, he said. The officer spoke on the condition of anonymity because he, like others in this report, was not authorized to disclose information to the press.

The Doha agreement, designed to bring an end to the war in Afghanistan, instead left many Afghan forces demoralized, bringing into stark relief the corrupt impulses of many Afghan officials and their tenuous loyalty to the country’s central government. Some police officers complained that they had not been paid in six months or more.

“They saw that document as the end,” the officer said, referring to the majority of Afghans aligned with the government. “The day the deal was signed we saw the change. Everyone was just looking out for himself. It was like [the United States] left us to fail.”

An Afghan special forces officer stationed in Kandahar who had been assigned to protect a critical border crossing recalled being ordered by a commander to surrender. “We want to fight! If we surrender, the Taliban will kill us,” the special forces officer said.

“Don’t fire a single shot,” the unit’s commander told them as the Taliban swarmed the area, the officer later recounted. The border police surrendered immediately, leaving the special forces unit on its own. A second officer confirmed his colleague’s recollection of the events.

Unwilling to surrender or fight outmatched, the members of the unit put down their weapons, changed into civilian clothing and fled their post.

When an Afghan police officer was asked about his force’s apparent lack of motivation, he explained that they hadn’t been getting their salaries. Several Afghan police officers on the front lines in Kandahar before the city fell said they hadn’t been paid in six to nine months. Taliban payoffs became ever more enticing.

“I feel ashamed of what I’ve done,” said the first officer. But, he said, if he hadn’t fled, “I would have been sold to the Taliban by my own government.”

“Without the United States, there was no fear of being caught for corruption. It brought out the traitors from within our military,” said one Afghan police officer.

Several officers with the Kandahar police force said corruption was more to blame for the collapse than incompetence. “Honestly, I don’t think it can be fixed. I think they need something completely new,” said Ahmadullah Kandahari, an officer in Kandahar’s police force.

In the days leading up to Kandahar’s capture this month, the toll on the police had become visible. Bacha, a 34-year-old police commander, had been steadily retreating for more than three months. He had grown hunched and his attire more ragged. In an interview, he said the repeated retreats had bruised his pride — but it was going without pay that made him feel desperate.

“Last time I saw you, the Taliban was offering $150 for anyone from the government to surrender and join them,” he told a reporter as the interview drew to a close. “Do you know, what is the price now?”

He didn’t laugh, and several of his men leaned forward, eager to hear the answer.

[Sled21]

(08-16-2021, 12:12 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Thanks for the info.

I've seen this crop up from some people on Twitter, but since I'm not heavily-invested into American politics, I didn't know if it was legitimate or not

The Leader of the Taliban was released by Obama in a trade for Bergdahl.

[Sled21]

(08-16-2021, 12:43 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It’s unfortunate, but like others have mentioned this is a failure on several administrations. It was a war doomed to fail, much like the War on Drugs. Someone else mentioned it, but when Trump said he was bringing back the troops, I supported it. We would be over there for eternity if we don’t bring them back. You simply can’t defeat an ideology like this.

Bush bombed the shit out of them.

Obama bombed the shit out of them.

Trump bombed the shit out of them.

Biden, I’m sure has dropped some bombs as well.

Not a single administration made things better over there. We have been wasting money and lives in that country. Pull them out. I would’ve applauded Trump on pulling them out and I’ll applaud Biden for doing it.

It really irks me when I hear people say this. You absolutely CAN defeat an ideology like this, you just have to be willing to do it and not ***** foot around fighting a clean war. Pre war Japan was about as fanatical an ideology as they came, believing their emperor was a living God. They were all about fighting to the death and surrender was shameful, until we lowered the hammer on them. Their "ideology" came around very quickly. Now they're normal people. Of course, to do this you have to fight a war and not have battlefields run by lawyers in DC. There's a reason we haven't won a war since WWII, and we will probably lose to China in the near future. 

[Sled21]

(08-17-2021, 12:31 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Trump removed 80% of the troops by the time he left office. He bragged in late June about Biden being unable to stop "his" withdrawal. He wanted a complete withdrawal by May. Your hypothetical musings are not supported by his words or actions. 

It's not leaving, it's how you leave. Trump told them we were going to leave, after we got all our people and those that helped us out. He also told the Taliban leader if they killed one American, or even scared one American, during the pullout, he would level their village. THAT is what the Taliban understand, force. You can be a pull out under Trump would have been with most of our equipment and gotten everyone we wanted out first and not Saigon 2.0

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(08-17-2021, 02:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: It really irks me when I hear people say this. You absolutely CAN defeat an ideology like this, you just have to be willing to do it and not ***** foot around fighting a clean war. Pre war Japan was about as fanatical an ideology as they came, believing their emperor was a living God. They were all about fighting to the death and surrender was shameful, until we lowered the hammer on them. Their "ideology" came around very quickly. Now they're normal people. Of course, to do this you have to fight a war and not have battlefields run by lawyers in DC. There's a reason we haven't won a war since WWII, and we will probably lose to China in the near future. 

Thanks for the tidbit above your post in reply to mine, but...

… you really don't know much about Japan's history.

The INCREDIBLY-short of it, is that the emperor, "title," was largely a figurehead position for a good 300-500 years in Japan, around the time of the Sengoku period, until the Meiji Restoration, in the 1800s.

Meiji then did the whole, "empire of Japan," crap, which Hirohito took to fanatical lengths, around WWII and we all know how that went down.

So yes, the, "American," history of Japan, may state that Japan was indoctrinated and, "needed to be snapped out of it," but the reality is that the country was only in that state for decades and that emperor was powerless for centuries beforehand.

The winners really do write history...

EDIT* Wanted to ask, actually: have you ever been to Japan? 'cause even though they love everything about the West and foreign culture, they are NOT, "normal," people lol and they are still VERY rooted in their Japanese ideologies, history and just everyday life; they haven't changed in centuries, but they are still wonderfully-nice, down to Earth and above all, classy and friendly people. The rest of the world (especially the US) can learn a lot in terms of manners and respect, from the Japanese.

[BigPapaKain]

(08-17-2021, 02:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: It really irks me when I hear people say this. You absolutely CAN defeat an ideology like this, you just have to be willing to do it and not ***** foot around fighting a clean war. Pre war Japan was about as fanatical an ideology as they came, believing their emperor was a living God. They were all about fighting to the death and surrender was shameful, until we lowered the hammer on them. Their "ideology" came around very quickly. Now they're normal people. Of course, to do this you have to fight a war and not have battlefields run by lawyers in DC. There's a reason we haven't won a war since WWII, and we will probably lose to China in the near future. 

Tell me you don't know shit about Japanese history or society without telling me you don't know shit about Japanese history or society. 

[KillerGoose]

(08-17-2021, 02:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: It really irks me when I hear people say this. You absolutely CAN defeat an ideology like this, you just have to be willing to do it and not ***** foot around fighting a clean war. Pre war Japan was about as fanatical an ideology as they came, believing their emperor was a living God. They were all about fighting to the death and surrender was shameful, until we lowered the hammer on them. Their "ideology" came around very quickly. Now they're normal people. Of course, to do this you have to fight a war and not have battlefields run by lawyers in DC. There's a reason we haven't won a war since WWII, and we will probably lose to China in the near future. 

It’s easy to say all of this, but what are you actually trying to say? You use Japan as an example, which is a country that we firebombed to obliteration prior to dropping two nuclear bombs on them. Is that the “non-clean” war that you’re referring to? Because if that is what it takes to defeat an ideology, then I would say that the cost is too great to do so. There are also key differences between the Taliban and the Hirohito led Japanese Empire, chiefly that the Taliban are taking their tribal interpretations of religious law and enforcing it. This is truly a religion that they follow and is as much a holy war to them. This isn’t that they believe their Emperor is a god, when in reality he is a human and is fallible.

The Japanese surrendered because their Emperor chose to do so. The Taliban don’t have someone to surrender for them and they believe that death only sends them to the promised land. These are important differences. Dropping a nuke or bombing the country into oblivion (which we have already done) won’t do the trick here.

[Belsnickel]

This is all I think about while reading the responses in this thread:

[CKwi88]

(08-17-2021, 04:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is all I think about while reading the responses in this thread:

There have been amazing memes popping up on social media. 

If I were smarter I would find out how to post them in here.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-17-2021, 04:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is all I think about while reading the responses in this thread:

Same here.  You've heard me say many times that W is a far worse POTUS than Trump ever was.  One can certainly debate the ongoing strife associated with Trumpism and his election fraud claims, but W did more damage to the US brand than any other POTUS, by far.  Although I remain of the opinion that Cheney was the one calling the shots for at least the first five years, probably six.  Both of them are garbage.

[masonbengals fan]

So far Biden is making them all (Bush, Obama & Trump) look pretty good. Completely incompetent. Everything he touches turns into a complete shit show. Afghan pullout, border security, crime rate, inflation, race relations & energy policy. Wrong on everything.

Barrack was right. Never underestimate Joe's ability to screw things up.

[*Nately120*]

(08-17-2021, 06:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Same here.  You've heard me say many times that W is a far worse POTUS than Trump ever was.  One can certainly debate the ongoing strife associated with Trumpism and his election fraud claims, but W did more damage to the US brand than any other POTUS, by far.  Although I remain of the opinion that Cheney was the one calling the shots for at least the first five years, probably six.  Both of them are garbage.

It's interesting seeing people attempt to shove the political toothpaste back in the tube.  It's almost surreal to see the political focus dialed back to 2004 almost overnight.  

[NATI BENGALS]

I went to Afghanistan. I can’t help but think some of the kids I saw on the street back then are now taliban dudes. If I was a kid and saw some foreign fighters coming through my village tearing up the place like I did with a battalion of Marines when I was deployed I would most definitely be all about fighting the intruders.

Screw that hell hole and screw the cowards who we trained and equipped for 20 years who lay down quicker than a tired baby. Bunch of the softest batch cowards I’ve ever seen.

I was pretty proud one of the things we did over there was help secure elections when women were voting for the first time.

All for naught. I’m not sure how these dudes can grow up in such a harsh constant conflict environment and be so weak. I guess I’m just an asshole. But I’m done with it. Stop wasting our lives time and money for people who are perfectly capable yet will not fight for themselves.

Desert mountains and mud huts. Eat a bag of smashed assholes Afghanistan

[BFritz21]

(08-17-2021, 09:13 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I went to Afghanistan. I can’t help but think some of the kids I saw on the street back then are now taliban dudes. If I was a kid and saw some foreign fighters coming through my village tearing up the place like I did with a battalion of Marines when I was deployed I would most definitely be all about fighting the intruders.

Screw that hell hole and screw the cowards who we trained and equipped for 20 years who lay down quicker than a tired baby. Bunch of the softest batch cowards I’ve ever seen.

I was pretty proud one of the things we did over there was help secure elections when women were voting for the first time.

All for naught. I’m not sure how these dudes can grow up in such a harsh constant conflict environment and be so weak. I guess I’m just an asshole. But I’m done with it. Stop wasting our lives time and money for people who are perfectly capable yet will not fight for themselves.

Desert mountains and mud huts. Eat a bag of smashed assholes Afghanistan

Thank you for your service.  Yeah, I have no clue what it had to be like but you have more respect from me than I could ever describe because I sure as hell couldn't do that.

Trying to do more now would just create more problems, but I don't think we should just be up and leaving without a plan.

[Dill]

(08-17-2021, 02:34 PM)Sled21 Wrote: It's not leaving, it's how you leave. Trump told them we were going to leave, after we got all our people and those that helped us out. He also told the Taliban leader if they killed one American, or even scared one American, during the pullout, he would level their village. THAT is what the Taliban understand, force. You can be a pull out under Trump would have been with most of our equipment and gotten everyone we wanted out first and not Saigon 2.0

LOL Plenty of villages were "leveled" by the US and the Soviet Union, without weakening insurgent resolve in Afghanistan. If they were afraid of "leveling" they'd never have come back after 2001. 

What the Taliban "understood" after the Doha Agreement was that they had won. 

And the Afghan National Army understood that as well.

Did you read post #62 above? 

If the interviews with Afghan soldiers and officers are to be believed, the Doha Agreement took the wind out of the Afghan National Army. In the period following Trump's promised pull out, the bulk of the solders were not paid, critical outposts were not supplied, and leaders of critical regional city/provinces like Herat and Kandahar began making deals with the Taliban, insuring they would be on the right side after Trump's agreement effectively handed the country to the Taliban.

Hence the unexpected capitulation of troops who otherwise could have held the majority of the country.

Others concur that the Doha Agreement set the stage for rapid collapse and chaos: 
https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/568154-trumps-deal-with-the-taliban-set-the-stage-for-the-afghan-collapse
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/08/17/afghanistan-trump-deal-robert-crews-sot-nr-intl-hnk-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/afghanistan-falls-to-the-taliban/
Including Trump's own secretary of Defense: 
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/politics/mark-esper-donald-trump-taliban-afghanistan-cnntv/index.html

Trump began pulling out troops BEFORE the Taliban meet any of their supposed agreement targets, making it clear that the US
cutting and running no matter what the Taliban did.  

In any case they'd heard Trump threaten "fire and fury" before. 

[Dill]

(08-17-2021, 02:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: It really irks me when I hear people say this. You absolutely CAN defeat an ideology like this, you just have to be willing to do it and not ***** foot around fighting a clean war. Pre war Japan was about as fanatical an ideology as they came, believing their emperor was a living God. They were all about fighting to the death and surrender was shameful, until we lowered the hammer on them. Their "ideology" came around very quickly. Now they're normal people. Of course, to do this you have to fight a war and not have battlefields run by lawyers in DC. There's a reason we haven't won a war since WWII, and we will probably lose to China in the near future. 

People who "fight to the death" get that reputation precisely because they don't "come around." 
When someone "lowers the hammer on them,"  they fight to the death.

The "ideology: you refer to, one which scorned fighting "clean wars," was contested by Japanese democrats and socialists throughout the 30s, not held by all Japanese. And the majority of the civilian population did not want to go down fighting for authoritarian, militarist leaders who had brought their country to unnecessary ruin--the kind which "lawyers" can often forsee and prevent.

Wars are not like basketball games. One of the most difficult lessons to learn from US wars since WWII is that "lowering the hammer" generates and expands insurgencies. 

[Benton]

In the end, this will wind up another partisan issue.

We spent decades "training" a country to defend itself. POTUS's from both sides kept moving forward with "let's throw a couple more years, few more billion and thousands more lives at the problem."

We never should've tried to occupy any of those countries. And this is exactly why. When we eventually pull out, it goes back to what it was before.

[Dill]

(08-18-2021, 01:37 AM)Benton Wrote: In the end, this will wind up another partisan issue.

We spent decades "training" a country to defend itself. POTUS's from both sides kept moving forward with "let's throw a couple more years, few more billion and thousands more lives at the problem."

We never should've tried to occupy any of those countries. And this is exactly why. When we eventually pull out, it goes back to what it was before.

Not sure we were training Afghanistan to "defend itself." "Itself" was part of the problem, after all. 

We were training Afghans to address US security interests, without thinking much about theirs. 
The "enemy" was foreign to the US, but a part of their country--their relatives and neighbors. 

I think the postwar problems we have had in both Iraq and Afghanistan follow from the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld decision that there
would be no "nation building," when most everyone agreed that to just cut and run after "victory" would leave those broken states
to the re-formation of Al Qaeda, and the epicenter of waves of refugees--an international problem. As Powell said, "If you break it, you own it." 

So those who refused to engage in nation building eventually realized that some half-hearted and unplanned, minimal nation building would be required--neoliberal style. Because private enterprise is so much more efficient than Big Government, US corporations would bid for hundreds of billions of taxpayer money to rebuild hospitals and roads and power plants. US corporations and subcontractors in the Middle East got a windfall, and few hospitals, roads, and power plants were actually built. So nation building is again declared a "failure."

Iraq has not yet gone back to what it was before, though taking out Saddam removed a bulwark against Iran and then extended its influence in Iraq and the Levant. Not a positive outcome for those who spun up the WMD hoax. As of spring 2021, it looked like better governance was developing, as many Shia realize that Iraq cannot really be a Shia state. For many Americans, its fragile democracy was well worth hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths.

It remains to be seen what the new Afghanistan will look like, with unregulable cell phones and millions of women who know how to read. That means a lot of people to punish. But I think there is a chance at least the Taliban will protect their re-aquired state by keeping it clear of US targets, like ISIS. And a lot of US citizens would consider that a "win" then.  Sorry about the girls. 

Owing to the partisanship you reference, Benton, it will be difficult to usefully evaluate and learn from the mistakes made in A-stan, as well as some successes now cast as "failure." Hard to imagine accurate description which couldn't look like blame. I don't ultimately fault the politicians for our foreign policy troubles when they mostly do what voters want.

[BmorePat87]

(08-17-2021, 02:34 PM)Sled21 Wrote: It's not leaving, it's how you leave. Trump told them we were going to leave, after we got all our people and those that helped us out. He also told the Taliban leader if they killed one American, or even scared one American, during the pullout, he would level their village. THAT is what the Taliban understand, force. You can be a pull out under Trump would have been with most of our equipment and gotten everyone we wanted out first and not Saigon 2.0

No, he told them we were going to leave May 2021. You can believe that he scared them, but he was quick to give them a sweetheart deal with nearly no concessions on their part, and his treatment of the Kurds in Syria made it clear that he was willing to exit quickly and abandon allies.