Alabama House Passes Minimum Wage Bill Blocking Planned Wage Increase

[SunsetBengal]

(02-17-2016, 11:18 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: How much or a rise in minimum wage are we talking about and over how many years?

Seriously, a guy goes to work for a company and after 8 years, he finally reaches $15.00 an hour. The next week, minimum wage goes up to $15.00 an hour...that guy is going to be pissed.

Exactly, if the minimum wage doubles, so should my salary..

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Raising the minimum wage from $7.25 an hour to $15.00 an hour only makes more people than before making minimum wage.

Plus, minimum wage is still minimum wage no matter what the hourly wage is.

[*bfine32*]

(02-17-2016, 09:07 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Still not following how this supports your argument.  Are you saying that because most people who make minimum wage are above 20, its more acceptable?  Honestly just not following this.  Feel free to give up on me at this point.


Trying to scare an ignorant public into thinking something that would benefit their quality of life would negatively impact them instead.



That is not a red herring considering your question "Can you expand on what you see as the benefits?"  Nice attempt, but please feel free to give me that handy link you just referenced.


Moving on...

I don't necessarily want my tax dollars lowered, even though I pay a fairly hefty amount of taxes due to my particular situation.  If minimum wage were increased to a LIVING WAGE, these employees would not need to depend on government programs to make ends meet.  

Essentially, these corps are leaning on government programs in order to keep their margins in tact.  I for one do not believe that is an ethical business practice, nor do I think its a good one given the strain it puts on your workforce.


Oh.  Got it.  You're saying only kids make minimum wage? I'll refer here again:

I do not believe it comes down to stratification, but I do think that even those at the bottom of your stratification scenario deserve access to basic human staples like food clothing and shelter.

97.5% of workers 25 and older make above minimum wage, I see you threw out a $12 number, is that what you suggest a mandated minimum wage should be?

I get my numbers from the U.S. Bureau of Labor, (Read the part about younger workers, maybe that will explain it better than I apparently have.)
http://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/cps/characteristics-of-minimum-wage-workers-2014.pdf


It's funny you suggest those that are against raising a minimum wage do so to scare the ignorant and then suggest those that do oppose it do so simply to oppose people's access to "basic human staples".

I consider finances and wages to be an economic issue, not one of humanity. Like I said I have moved back and forth on this matter and have recently taken business classes at a graduate level where it was a main topic. To suggest wages forcibly are increased to a $12 level and prices of goods and services does not go up is just absurd. But that's the easy side of the coin. Where does the money come from to pay local and state government workers?  

[Aquapod770]

(02-17-2016, 07:33 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: The 'higher unemployment' argument has always sounded like a scare tactic from those who are benefiting from a low minimum wage.  If a company can't pay an employee a living wage, it shouldn't be in business in my opinion.  That doesn't mean there won't be other opportunities for workers to find employment that provides a living wage elsewhere.  

Except it's not a "scare tactic". Binding minimum wage is a legit term used by economists. Basically it says if the government sets minimum wage too high they're insuring a certain percentage of unemployment. This ends up hurting teenagers and low skilled workers the most. 

Now will going from 7.50 to 8.50 cause binding unemployment? Most likely not. But from 7.50 to 15.00? It's a reasonable concern.

[GMDino]

These are all wonderful arguments...but the state is blocking the city from doing it because they are worried about other cities suffering.

Quote:...he said he was concerned other cities would follow in Birmingham’s footsteps, setting up an uneven wage landscape that he thought was bad for economic development.

There is no state mandates minimum wage either.  It is one city raising the wage.

Free market indeed.

[Rotobeast]

(02-17-2016, 09:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The way to raise wages is actually pretty simple.  You have to reduce the work force, putting the worker at more of a premium.  How do you do that?  Get rid of all the illegals, the jobs that they are working can just as easily be filled by Americans.  Cut back on the H1-B visas, there are a ton of traditionally high paying jobs being filled by visa holders willing to work for less than traditional Americans with the same qualifications.  Lower taxes on corporations, make them want to exist in America, creating a need for more work force.

There you have it.  How freakin' simple was that?

This....

(02-17-2016, 10:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: How about prosecuting people who hire illegals?

This.....


And how about mandatory profit sharing, across the board, down to the smallest pee-on ?
I'm not sure what percentages would be used, what scale of profit, ect.... but if a person contributes to the success of a company I see no reason why a pro-rated bonus cannot subsidize their minimum wage.
I suppose it could be broken down to a more local level, such as franchise and ect...

[*bfine32*]

(02-18-2016, 02:06 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: This....


This.....


And how about mandatory profit sharing, across the board, down to the smallest pee-on ?
I'm not sure what percentages would be used, what scale of profit, ect.... but if a person contributes to the success of a company I see no reason why a pro-rated bonus cannot subsidize their minimum wage.
I suppose it could be broken down to a more local level, such as franchise and ect...

Mandatory profit sharing could be a great solution, but it would take a lot of oversight, but if an employee's paycheck was based on the success of the company, more employees would be motivated to ensure the company succeeds. It could also limit unnecessary demands by employees.

[6andcounting]

(02-17-2016, 07:33 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: The 'higher unemployment' argument has always sounded like a scare tactic from those who are benefiting from a low minimum wage.  If a company can't pay an employee a living wage, it shouldn't be in business in my opinion.  That doesn't mean there won't be other opportunities for workers to find employment that provides a living wage elsewhere.  

It's not a scare tactic and it's not about whether or not corporations can pay. it's about supply and demand. When the price of labor increases, the demand for labor (that is demand from businesses to hire) decreases. On the other hand, when the price of labor increases, the supply for labor (that is people looking for jobs) will increase. In a free, competitive market, both supply and demand will increase and/or decrease until they meet in the middle. When there's a binding price floor, the price has to stop there even if supply and demand have not intersected. That creates a surplus, meaning more of a supply of workers than demand for workers is available. And that's exactly what unemployment is.

Here's is an illustrated that models what I said:



W1 represents what the market price should be based on supply and demand. Say it's $7. W2 represent where the minimum wage is set, say $8.50. Since the price floor is higher than the market price, it's binding and causes a shortage - which is unemployment.

[BmorePat87]

(02-17-2016, 05:48 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Someone without access to birth control, isnt allowed to have abortions and is the product of the trickle down education system.  

Show me someone legally living in the US that is raising a family on minimum wage and I'll show you someone who doesn't have the drive to find a better job.

I was making above minimum wage at an entry level retail job during high school and then well above it during college at 3 other entry level retail jobs. 

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2016, 12:00 AM)bfine32 Wrote: 97.5% of workers 25 and older make above minimum wage, I see you threw out a $12 number, is that what you suggest a mandated minimum wage should be?


 To suggest wages forcibly are increased to a $12 level and prices of goods and services does not go up is just absurd. 

How can it have such a huge impact if so few people make minimum wage?  The fact is that raising minimum wage would only have a very minor effect on prices.  Labor is only a fraction of the cost; only a fraction of the workforce makes minimum wage; and the increase on this fraction of a fraction would only be about 20%.

Also when you consider that the higher paid jobs pay 5 to 10 times minimum wage it shows what a small impact raising minimum wage would have on the cost of labor.

We are all paying higher taxes because of all the people receiving government benefits.  By raising minimum wage we reduce government benefits and save tax money.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2016, 10:12 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Show me someone legally living in the US that is raising a family on minimum wage and I'll show you someone who doesn't have the drive to find a better job.

I was making above minimum wage at an entry level retail job during high school and then well above it during college at 3 other entry level retail jobs. 

There are a fixed number of jobs in the labor market.  No matter how hard people work there will always be the same percentage of jobs that pay minimum wage.

[*Nately120*]

(02-17-2016, 11:18 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: How much or a rise in minimum wage are we talking about and over how many years?

Seriously, a guy goes to work for a company and after 8 years, he finally reaches $15.00 an hour. The next week, minimum wage goes up to $15.00 an hour...that guy is going to be pissed.

And I'm pissed people who graduated 10 years before me didn't have to deal with a terrible economy.  Life sucks...sack up!

[Yojimbo]

I think it's pretty simple if you accept we live in a consumer driven economy.

More Income = Buying More Stuff = More Demand for Goods = Demand for More Labor = More Income = ....

Low income workers getting a raise aren't going to just save the increase. They are going to buy cars, house, computers, Nikes, TV's, more food, go on vacations, etc.

[BmorePat87]

(02-18-2016, 01:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There are a fixed number of jobs in the labor market.  No matter how hard people work there will always be the same percentage of jobs that pay minimum wage.

I'm not suggesting they aren't getting promotions or raises, I am suggesting that they are not working hard enough to find one of the many jobs that pays above minimum wage. It really isn't that hard either. Instead of applying to McDonalds, apply to the local grocery store that is union or Best Buy. 

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2016, 09:00 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I'm not suggesting they aren't getting promotions or raises, I am suggesting that they are not working hard enough to find one of the many jobs that pays above minimum wage. It really isn't that hard either. Instead of applying to McDonalds, apply to the local grocery store that is union or Best Buy. 

None of that changes the number of jobs available that pay minimum wage.

You are not addressing the problem.  You are talking about an individual.  Even if every individual worked as hard as he could there would still be the same number of jobs paying minimum wage in our economy.

[*bfine32*]

(02-19-2016, 01:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: None of that changes the number of jobs available that pay minimum wage.

You are not addressing the problem.  You are talking about an individual.  Even if every individual worked as hard as he could there would still be the same number of jobs paying minimum wage in our economy.

...and if you raise minimum wage there will be more jobs that pay minimum wage.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2016, 12:21 AM)Aquapod770 Wrote: Now will going from 7.50 to 8.50 cause binding unemployment? Most likely not. But from 7.50 to 15.00? It's a reasonable concern.

I agree with this.  The minimum wage needs to be increased, but it can't be seen as the answer to poverty.  I don't think we can make the massive increases some people want.

Again, in some big cities the minimum wage might be close to $15 an hour, but no way that works across the entire country.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2016, 01:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ...and if you raise minimum wage there will be more jobs that pay minimum wage.

More higher paying jobs is a good thing isn't it?

[*bfine32*]

(02-19-2016, 02:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: More higher paying jobs is a good thing isn't it?

Not when it causes an increase in the cost of production; thereby, causing an increase in the cost of goods and services.

As simple as it sounds you fix nothing by raising minimum wage, you just create more people making minimum wage.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2016, 02:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Not when it causes an increase in the cost of production; thereby, causing an increase in the cost of goods and services.

As simple as it sounds you fix nothing by raising minimum wage, you just create more people making minimum wage.

The small increase in cost is spread out among the entire population, but the benefit goes to those that need it the most.


Approximately 3 million workers over age 16 earn at the US minimum wage of $7.50.  Giving everyone of those workers a $3.00 hr raise would cost about 18 billion dollars (at 2000 hrs a year).  The unites States produced about $17.4 trillion in goods and services in 2015.  That $18 billion raise would account for an increase of one tenth of one percent of the costs of goods and services. (I realize that this number is too low because lots of people making more than minimum wage but less than $10.50 would also get raises, but even if you double my 18 billion estimate it is still a negligible amount)

Of course the increase would hit some businesses harder than others, but even in the fast food industry to increase would not be that great.  A McDonald's cook prepares hundreds of dollars worth of food in an hour.  So an extra $3.00 only amounts to a few pennies per burger.