Alaskan boy participates in the girls state championship

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2016, 03:23 PM)Griever Wrote: maybe if they were treated with an ounce of dignity while they are going through the process, they wouldn't be suicidal...

Maybe, The study didn't mention that, so that's just your opinion of something that may or may not be happening.  

[Benton]

(06-10-2016, 03:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: They are not the same because one involves another party? Both deal with the mental state of an adolescent, What is it about involving another party makes them different?

Are you saying gender identity is not a typical human emotion?  That is a new one to me. 

I think your last analogy would be more apt if you would say it's like going to the dentist and getting your baby teeth pulled instead of giving them time and see if the will fall out on their own.  

To the first, one is typical (attraction to another person), the other would be considered atypical (feeling your gender is incorrect).

To the second, I'd call it a state of being more than an emotion. I never woke up feeling a little less masculine, but I'm still relatively young.

That's fair enough. And for some people, they don't and have to be treated. The problem is, that can still be taken care of later with no real noticeable difference. It wouldn't be the same for someone who is virtually an adult, as their body has already gone through the hormone changes of a male or female. As someone else in this thread (Fred?), you can't take off the increased muscle mass or size. The woman would be a woman with a more masculine body, the man would be a man with a smaller frame.

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2016, 03:28 PM)Benton Wrote: To the first, one is typical (attraction to another person), the other would be considered atypical (feeling your gender is incorrect).

To the second, I'd call it a state of being more than an emotion. I never woke up feeling a little less masculine, but I'm still relatively young.

That's fair enough. And for some people, they don't and have to be treated. The problem is, that can still be taken care of later with no real noticeable difference. It wouldn't be the same for someone who is virtually an adult, as their body has already gone through the hormone changes of a male or female. As someone else in this thread (Fred?), you can't take off the increased muscle mass or size. The woman would be a woman with a more masculine body, the man would be a man with a smaller frame.

But a youngster sexually attracted to someone much older than them may be atypical. Fols fall in love less often that they identify with a gender; it is just in both instances there are cases where it doesn't agree with your biological make up.

As to a state of being/ When did you choose to fall in love or be attracted sexually to someone? 

[fredtoast]

(06-10-2016, 03:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Here's one study:

Conclusions

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

The conclusion is flawed because it fails to mention that persons with transsexualism, who DON'T HAVE sex reassignment, also have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behavior, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population.


It is very difficult to tell how much these problems are due to the way society treats transexuals and how much they might be related to emotional/psychological problems.  And this study is  classic example of how some people try to spin the truth in order to make people with gender dysphoria look even worse.

[fredtoast]

Again, although I am one of the most liberal people here, I also agree that transexuals should not receive medical treatment like surgery or hormone treatment until they are 18 and can decide for themselves.

We don't let parents decide that it is okay for their small children to have sex with adults, so I don't think we should allow parents to make these decisions about their children's sexuality either.

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2016, 03:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The conclusion is flawed because it fails to mention that persons with transsexualism, who DON'T HAVE sex reassignment, also have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behavior, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population.


It is very difficult to tell how much these problems are due to the way society treats transexuals and how much they might be related to emotional/psychological problems.  And this study is  classic example of how some people try to spin the truth in order to make people with gender dysphoria look even worse.

The article has been peer-reviewed by folks that know more about the subject than you or I.

I doubt the Swedish cohort tried  to "spin the truth", but you are entitled to your layman's opinion, if you disagree with the published findings or find them to be "twisted". 

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2016, 03:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Again, although I am one of the most liberal people here, I also agree that transexuals should not receive medical treatment like surgery or hormone treatment until they are 18 and can decide for themselves.

We don't let parents decide that it is okay for their small children to have sex with adults, so I don't think we should allow parents to make these decisions about their children's sexuality either.

We are not allowed to agree. Change your stance immediately. 

[Benton]

(06-10-2016, 03:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But a youngster sexually attracted to someone much older than them may be atypical. Fols fall in love less often that they identify with a gender; it is just in both instances there are cases where it doesn't agree with your biological make up.

As to a state of being/ When did you choose to fall in love or be attracted sexually to someone? 

 I think you're reaching now. Originally it was a girl and an older guy. That's not uncommon. Now it sounds like you're talking about an old guy. I don't recall ever asking a woman her age to see if it was ok I was attracted to her. 

As to a state of being, are you saying you chose your emotions? That's handy.

[fredtoast]

(06-10-2016, 03:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The article has been peer-reviewed by folks that know more about the subject than you or I.

I know.  That is exactly where I found this criticism of the conclusion.  That is what is so good about peer review.

Are you saying I am wrong?

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2016, 03:39 PM)Benton Wrote:  I think you're reaching now. Originally it was a girl and an older guy. That's not uncommon. Now it sounds like you're talking about an old guy. I don't recall ever asking a woman her age to see if it was ok I was attracted to her. 

As to a state of being, are you saying you chose your emotions? That's handy.

Yes. It is obvious that I am the one reaching. 

IYO, one is OK because it's uncommon and one is not OK because it is common. 

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2016, 03:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I know.  That is exactly where I found this criticism of the conclusion.  That is what is so good about peer review.

Are you saying I am wrong?

I am saying the study points to transgender as a problem and reassignment is not an effective answer. i have seen those that suggest the answer is counseling and medication to allow the emotional to align with the biological instead of vice-versa.  

[fredtoast]

(06-10-2016, 03:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I am saying the study points to transgender as a problem and reassignment is not an effective answer.

But they can't say it is not effective without comparing transgenders who had reassignment to the ones who did not.

The conclusion is not valid based on the study.  It is possible that transgenders who had reassignment have much lower levels of suicide and other problems than the ones who did not, but we can not tell from this study.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-10-2016, 03:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Maybe, The study didn't mention that, so that's just your opinion of something that may or may not be happening.  

Actually, it did mention that . . .

Quote: In accordance, the overall mortality rate was only significantly increased for the group operated before 1989. However, the latter might also be explained by improved health care for transsexual persons during 1990s, along with altered societal attitudes towards persons with different gender expressions.[35]

It's buried in the discussion section.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-10-2016, 03:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The article has been peer-reviewed by folks that know more about the subject than you or I.

I doubt the Swedish cohort tried  to "spin the truth", but you are entitled to your layman's opinion, if you disagree with the published findings or find them to be "twisted". 

Actually, fred's critique is valid.

Quote:Transsexual individuals had been hospitalized for psychiatric morbidity other than gender identity disorder prior to sex reassignment about four times more often than controls.

Furthermore . . .

Quote:For the purpose of evaluating the safety of sex reassignment in terms of morbidity and mortality, however, it is reasonable to compare sex reassigned persons with matched population controls. The caveat with this design is that transsexual persons before sex reassignment might differ from healthy controls (although this bias can be statistically corrected for by adjusting for baseline differences). It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism.

Additionally . . .

Quote:Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment.

It is important to read the entire study, not just they parts that support your opinion.  One study does not make a consensus because if you read the entire study you would know there is very limited data on this subject at the time of publications, the studies involve very small sample sizes, and there are significant differences from one study to another.

For example . . .

Quote:The most striking result was the high mortality rate in both male-to-females and female-to males, compared to the general population. This contrasts with previous reports (with one exception[8]) that did not find an increased mortality rate after sex reassignment, or only noted an increased risk in certain subgroups.[7], [9], [10], [11]

Then there is the question of . . .

Quote:Transsexualism (ICD-10),[1] or gender identity disorder (DSM-IV),[2] is a condition in which a person's gender identity - the sense of being a man or a woman - contradicts his or her bodily sex characteristics. The individual experiences gender dysphoria and desires to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex.

The APA removed Gender Identity Disorder from DSM V after this study was published.  That was to stress not every transgender person has dysphoria.  This raises the question how many of the 324 "transsexuals" would even be included in this study if it were conducted today?

They aren't spinning the truth, others are spinning the results to support a preconceived agenda.

Really the only true take away from this study is that we need to be really careful not to draw false conclusions or misuse the information for inappropriate purposes.

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2016, 08:20 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Actually, fred's critique is valid.


Furthermore . . .


Additionally . . .


It is important to read the entire study, not just they parts that support your opinion.  One study does not make a consensus because if you read the entire study you would know there is very limited data on this subject at the time of publications, the studies involve very small sample sizes, and there are significant differences from one study to another.

For example . . .


Then there is the question of . . .


The APA removed Gender Identity Disorder from DSM V after this study was published.  That was to stress not every transgender person has dysphoria.  This raises the question how many of the 324 "transsexuals" would even be included in this study if it were conducted today?

They aren't spinning the truth, others are spinning the results to support a preconceived agenda.

Really the only true take away from this study is that we need to be really careful not to draw false conclusions or misuse the information for inappropriate purposes.

Only in this forum can folks try so hard to dismiss an intensive study that shows the ineffectiveness of reassignment surgery. I could scrub the study and find numerous examples; however the conclusion, written by those that conducted the study, is what it is, no matter how many trees some try to point to because they are unhappy with the conclusion.

The APA removing a label from something means absolutely nothing except to those that look for labels. The cause and effect of the condition remain unchanged and this study shows reassignment surgery is not a successful alternative. All critics can point to is "We don't know what happened if they had not had the surgery"

You asked for a study and one was provided, now you dismiss it in part. because it is only one study and point to sample size. Kinda hard to please.

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2016, 07:51 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Actually, it did mention that . . .

It's buried in the discussion section.

Actually it did not. As it pointed to something that "may" have happened (improved attitude towards Trans) after 1989. No conclusion was drawn. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-10-2016, 08:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Actually it did not. As it pointed to something that "may" have happened (improved attitude towards Trans) after 1989. No conclusion was drawn. 

Huh?

(06-10-2016, 03:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The study didn't mention that

 

(06-10-2016, 07:51 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Actually, it did mention that . . .

It's buried in the discussion section.

If the article "pointed" to something it "mentioned" it.  If it didn't mention it you wouldn't know what it was pointing to.  Mentioning something and drawing a conclusion are two different things.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-10-2016, 08:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Only in this forum can folks try so hard to dismiss an intensive study that shows the ineffectiveness of reassignment surgery. I could scrub the study and find numerous examples; however the conclusion, written by those that conducted the study, is what it is, no matter how many trees some try to point to because they are unhappy with the conclusion.

The APA removing a label from something means absolutely nothing except to those that look for labels. The cause and effect of the condition remain unchanged and this study shows reassignment surgery is not a successful alternative. All critics can point to is "We don't know what happened if they had not had the surgery"

You asked for a study and one was provided, now you dismiss it in part. because it is only one study and point to sample size. Kinda hard to please.

OMFG!  I stopped reading after the first god damn sentence.

The article states verbatim, "no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism."

What the hell does that sentence mean to you?

I've read the entire study.  It is obvious you haven't.  And if by some slim chances I'm wrong, you didn't understand what you read because the quote provided from the study directly contradicts your first sentence. 

**** this bullshit!  This is why we can't have nice things because it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation with a group of people who are this god damn dense intentionally.  I tried.  **** it.

[*bfine32*]

(06-10-2016, 09:16 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: OMFG!  I stopped reading after the first god damn sentence.

The article states verbatim, "no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism."

What the hell does that sentence mean to you?

I've read the entire study.  It is obvious you haven't.  And if by some slim chances I'm wrong, you didn't understand what you read because the quote provided from the study directly contradicts your first sentence. 

**** this bullshit!  This is why we can't have nice things because it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation with a group of people who are this god damn dense intentionally.  I tried.  **** it.

It also states verbatim: , it is not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons.


What the hell does that sentence mean to you?


As to the question you asked me; it states that this study cannot tell how effective sex reassignment treatment is. What it does point to is that  it is obviously not a cure.


See we can both bold and underline sentences in a comprehensive study; only one of us loses our shit over it.


 

[StLucieBengal]

(06-10-2016, 09:16 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: OMFG!  I stopped reading after the first god damn sentence.

The article states verbatim, "no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism."

What the hell does that sentence mean to you?

I've read the entire study.  It is obvious you haven't.  And if by some slim chances I'm wrong, you didn't understand what you read because the quote provided from the study directly contradicts your first sentence. 

**** this bullshit!  This is why we can't have nice things because it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation with a group of people who are this god damn dense intentionally.  I tried.  **** it.

How can you possibly get so wrapped up that you must swear when you know it's gonna be blocked.  You should seriously have a word with yourself if you allow anything on this board to force into some rage post.   

You Should be careful the last time this happened you photo'd all your personal documentnts and license plate for the board.   There are some that have proven they like to stalk people on social media 

Be better than this ...