American Atheists Convention

[*Nately120*]

(04-19-2019, 12:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think everyone who is religious should punch these guys!

American prisons are already full of Christians. 

[*michaelsean*]

I can kick off what I think. I'm certainly relatively new at believing this so there's probably 1000 ways to "catch" me that I don't have an answer to. i don't study this stuff in depth. Kinda going out on a limb here.

First of all, life is not a test. There is no failing and there is no hell. We can get into an ego-maniacal sadisitic God who needs you to tell Him how awesome he is despite being all-powerful. If you want. We are here to experience. we are here because without dark there is no light. If all you know is bliss, then can you really experience bliss?

We are all one. Literally. But we can choose to experience the illusion of separateness.

Jesus was no different than anyone else except that His (and others) souls are just much more enlightened than ours. I would imagine there are much more advanced civilizations where these souls go when they choose to take a physical form, but they occasionally come to less advanced civilizations to teach.

Those are some basics, and they are very basic. I have a very very simple outline in my head.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

[*michaelsean*]

(04-19-2019, 02:00 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:

The Norse gods did lose.  I would love to go to Valhalla, but with my luck I'd get there the day before Ragnarok.

[GMDino]

(04-19-2019, 01:49 PM)Beaker Wrote: I don't believe in religion in the context of reward vs punishment as that concept makes zero sense. But I do believe there is a power or source beyond us. I don't think this source is a singular being such as a god. I think it would have to be something more akin to an all encompassing energy or love from which we all arise and to which we all return, regardless of how we have conducted ourselves in the physical plane of existence.

More and more that is my line of thinking also.

Each "religion" is just how we choose to interpret that force.

And we still ended up here:

[GMDino]

(04-19-2019, 01:11 PM)michaelsean Wrote: That's an argument against religion, not God.  And by his definition, something like say art isn't real.

Or course it's about god (any of them).  If no one was ever taught to worship the hebrew god again no one would ever do it.  Another god may be created but no that one.

Art?  Like paintings?  That you can see and touch?

Maybe you are arguing that no one would ever create the Mona Lisa again.  And in the case you are right.  But they would also create something else that was "art".

[*michaelsean*]

(04-19-2019, 02:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: Or course it's about god (any of them).  If no one was ever taught to worship the hebrew god again no one would ever do it.  Another god may be created but no that one.

Art?  Like paintings?  That you can see and touch?

Maybe you are arguing that no one would ever create the Mona Lisa again.  And in the case you are right.  But they would also create something else that was "art".

Correct meaning that religion is imperfect.  Not that God doesn't exist.  If they erased all of science, would scientists make the same exact errors?

[GMDino]

(04-19-2019, 02:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Correct meaning that religion is imperfect.  Not that God doesn't exist.  If they erased all of science, would scientists make the same exact errors?

Over time science is science.  Atoms are atoms.  DNA is DNA. The stars are the stars. Etc.

There are many gods over the centuries...none are the same.

Perhaps for awhile we would worship fire and the sun again until we understood what they really are...but that's not proof of "god".

[Au165]

What's the deal with prayers? You often hear when someone is sick, keep them in your prayers but does the amount of people praying for something to happen matter like some sort of vote on limited god intervention for the week? Does god basically decide to help people American Idol style? Whoever gets the most prayers gets saved? If god doesn't answer said prayers you often hear "god has a plan", but if there was already a plan in place then why pray if the plan is already set? Wouldn't that then make prayer pointless?

[*michaelsean*]

(04-19-2019, 02:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: Over time science is science.  Atoms are atoms.  DNA is DNA. The stars are the stars. Etc.

There are many gods over the centuries...none are the same.

Perhaps for awhile we would worship fire and the sun again until we understood what they really are...but that's not proof of "god".

I'm not arguing proof of God.  I'm arguing that his argument works against religion, not God.  

[Au165]

(04-19-2019, 02:58 PM)GMDino Wrote: Over time science is science.  Atoms are atoms.  DNA is DNA. The stars are the stars. Etc.

There are many gods over the centuries...none are the same.

Perhaps for awhile we would worship fire and the sun again until we understood what they really are...but that's not proof of "god".

God/religion is one of the universal traits of pretty much all people on earth up until recently. We find tribes in jungles that have never seen the outside world and we see many have religions. Many religions share some similarities and many differences, but almost all are rooted in explaining the world we live in and many have an Action/Reward/Punishment aspect to them. Religion has been used universally since the dawn of man to explain the unexplainable. 

[*michaelsean*]

(04-19-2019, 03:25 PM)Au165 Wrote: What's the deal with prayers? You often hear when someone is sick, keep them in your prayers but does the amount of people praying for something to happen matter like some sort of vote on limited god intervention for the week? Does god basically decide to help people American Idol style? Whoever gets the most prayers gets saved? If god doesn't answer said prayers you often hear "god has a plan", but if there was already a plan in place then why pray if the plan is already set? Wouldn't that then make prayer pointless?

The best answer that I can give you is that prayer is calling on the power of God, energy, the universe.  Whatever you want to call it.  You have the ability to control this power because you are a part of it.  So prayer should be less a request than an order, but very few of us truly believe or know we have this capability and so it's meaningless.  I certainly haven't been able to convince myself.  So thought creates action, but if you don't really believe it, then that is the actual thought.  

I don't know if this is a good example, but look at the Lord's Prayer.  Not once does Jesus ask.  

[*michaelsean*]

(04-19-2019, 03:29 PM)Au165 Wrote: God/religion is one of the universal traits of pretty much all people on earth up until recently. We find tribes in jungles that have never seen the outside world and we see many have religions. Many religions share some similarities and many differences, but almost all are rooted in explaining the world we live in and many have an Action/Reward/Punishment aspect to them. Religion has been used universally since the dawn of man to explain the unexplainable. 

Or to explain God.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-19-2019, 12:41 PM)GMDino Wrote:

You're that older guy who learns a new word or phrase and then endlessly, and incorrectly, uses it. 

[Au165]

(04-19-2019, 03:37 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Or to explain God.  

But, God is creation/judge/jury/etc. Very few religions don't relate "god" to the existence of everything. To have "god" is to explain how everything came to be or will be. It is more of a vessel than an end. A "god" that didn't create anything, doesn't have any impact on your life, and doesn't have any sway in an afterlife...doesn't have much value to offer people and has little to no following.

[*bfine32*]

(04-19-2019, 03:25 PM)Au165 Wrote: What's the deal with prayers? You often hear when someone is sick, keep them in your prayers but does the amount of people praying for something to happen matter like some sort of vote on limited god intervention for the week? Does god basically decide to help people American Idol style? Whoever gets the most prayers gets saved? If god doesn't answer said prayers you often hear "god has a plan", but if there was already a plan in place then why pray if the plan is already set? Wouldn't that then make prayer pointless?

Often times folks don't just pray for a miracle cure. They often pray that the affected find inner strength and comfort. The prayers too are often to provide loved one with a source of solace. So in short: because the belief in the power of prayer and the belief is the key.

[Au165]

(04-19-2019, 04:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Often times folks don't just pray for a miracle cure. They often pray that the affected find inner strength and comfort. The prayers too are often to provide loved one with a source of solace. So in short: because the belief in the power of prayer and the belief is the key.

Could they find that inner strength or comfort without prayer? If they don't find it, is it because the prayer was intentionally ignored? Was it ignored because there wasn't enough prayer behind it in terms of volume or belief? In these cases I consider prayer and hope as interchangeable, however I go back to why then? If the prayer isn't meant (either intentionally or subconsciously) to change the outcome of something what is the point of doing it? Is it more like writing in a diary your thoughts?

[*bfine32*]

(04-19-2019, 04:27 PM)Au165 Wrote: Could they find that inner strength or comfort without prayer? If they don't find it, is it because the prayer was intentionally ignored? Was it ignored because there wasn't enough prayer behind it in terms of volume or belief? In these cases I consider prayer and hope as interchangeable, however I go back to why then? If the prayer isn't meant (either intentionally or subconsciously) to change the outcome of something what is the point of doing it? Is it more like writing in a diary your thoughts?

Prayer is intended to change as I explained, but in the end "Thy will be done".

I suppose the only answer you cannot refute is they do it because it can't hurt and who knows? it might just help.

[Benton]

(04-19-2019, 04:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Often times folks don't just pray for a miracle cure. They often pray that the affected find inner strength and comfort. The prayers too are often to provide loved one with a source of solace. So in short: because the belief in the power of prayer and the belief is the key.

Young people tend to pray for God to fix things. I think as people get older, they tend to pray to accept things (themselves, the afflicted, etc).

[*bfine32*]

(04-19-2019, 04:43 PM)Benton Wrote: Young people tend to pray for God to fix things. I think as people get older, they tend to pray to accept things (themselves, the afflicted, etc).

I too find this to be true.