Another School Shooting

[*bfine32*]

(05-18-2018, 07:03 PM)Goalpost Wrote: I don't know if parents are responsible if their kids get access, but if you own a gun, that should go along with the responsibility

This is the way I've always thought we should go. Charge this gun owner and let's see how closely other parents control access to their firearms. Dad should have to prove what safeguards he had in place and if found to be negligent then charge as accessory 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-18-2018, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think it is a product of the new idea that "Fame" is more important than any "substance".  It used to be that people strove to achieve something so that they could be famous.  Now people just want to be "famous" for no reason or even a bad reason.

A person who feels weak and oppressed thinks he can become the most famous person in the country. That makes them feel powerful because fame is so important now it doesn't matter what you are famous for.

A higher percentage of the population owned guns in 1970, and I assume we had just as much mental illness as today.  yet back then mass shooting (other than family massacres) were unheard of.

Mark this day on your calendar, I 100% agree with Fred.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-18-2018, 07:03 PM)Goalpost Wrote: I don't know if parents are responsible if their kids get access, but if you own a gun, that should go along with the responsibility

(05-18-2018, 07:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is the way I've always thought we should go. Charge this gun owner and let's see how closely other parents control access to their firearms. Dad should have to prove what safeguards he had in place and if found to be negligent then charge as accessory 

I have a hard time with this idea.  I knew exactly where my dad kept his loaded S&W model 39 (carried it on two tours in Vietnam) in case I was home alone or watching my sister and someone tried to break in the house.  If you have a child with obvious mental health issues, then, absolutely, lock all of your guns away from them.  But without that red flag?  It's shaky ground for me.

[*michaelsean*]

(05-18-2018, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think it is a product of the new idea that "Fame" is more important than any "substance".  It used to be that people strove to achieve something so that they could be famous.  Now people just want to be "famous" for no reason or even a bad reason.

A person who feels weak and oppressed thinks he can become the most famous person in the country. That makes them feel powerful because fame is so important now it doesn't matter what you are famous for.

A higher percentage of the population owned guns in 1970, and I assume we had just as much mental illness as today.  yet back then mass shooting (other than family massacres) were unheard of.

I agree. People want to be famous for just about any reason. The messed up ones for any reason.

[*bfine32*]

(05-18-2018, 07:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I have a hard time with this idea.  I knew exactly where my dad kept his loaded S&W model 39 (carried it on two tours in Vietnam) in case I was home alone or watching my sister and someone tried to break in the house.  If you have a child with obvious mental health issues, then, absolutely, lock all of your guns away from them.  But without that red flag?  It's shaky ground for me.

Agreed it would be a slippery slope, but something must change. In a case such as yours then the father would have to explain safeguards he kept and only provided you access during such times as when you were in charge of protecting the home and family. I also go with the assertion that no one should be able to take a weapon from outside their home unless they have some sort of training certification. 

[StLucieBengal]

(05-18-2018, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think it is a product of the new idea that "Fame" is more important than any "substance".  It used to be that people strove to achieve something so that they could be famous.  Now people just want to be "famous" for no reason or even a bad reason.

A person who feels weak and oppressed thinks he can become the most famous person in the country. That makes them feel powerful because fame is so important now it doesn't matter what you are famous for.

A higher percentage of the population owned guns in 1970, and I assume we had just as much mental illness as today.  yet back then mass shooting (other than family massacres) were unheard of.

Those kids used to be able to fist fight it out in school and get detention. With no tolerance policies it stays inside until it just boils over with a weapon. I am sure everyone would rather see more fist fights at sjool rather than letting it escalate to serious violence. Kids need an outlet.

The social media culture of today does push celebrity over all else.

[Millhouse]

(05-18-2018, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think it is a product of the new idea that "Fame" is more important than any "substance".  It used to be that people strove to achieve something so that they could be famous.  Now people just want to be "famous" for no reason or even a bad reason.

A person who feels weak and oppressed thinks he can become the most famous person in the country. That makes them feel powerful because fame is so important now it doesn't matter what you are famous for.

A higher percentage of the population owned guns in 1970, and I assume we had just as much mental illness as today.  yet back then mass shooting (other than family massacres) were unheard of.

(05-18-2018, 06:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If I had to suggest one thing it would be social media. Everybody wants to be famous; some just try to obtain that fame through infamy. 

I wont argue any of this. It could be fame mixed with the rise of the internet and social media sites, which of course also could influence copycat like acts of murder.

But in a way to me that suggests that with the rise of smartphones (the main social media medium), internet, movies getting more graphic aka John Wick (which I like tbh), etc., that something is being lost somehow for the ones committing these acts. At least with radical religious nuts, they have a reason as twisted as it is. Or with gang violence there is a reason that makes some sort of sense. But many of these school shootings just dont have a 'understandable' reason behind it like most other acts of murder.

Anyways just thinking out loud here.

[*bfine32*]

(05-18-2018, 09:34 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I wont argue any of this. It could be fame mixed with the rise of the internet and social media sites, which of course also could influence copycat like acts of murder.

But in a way to me that suggests that with the rise of smartphones (the main social media medium), internet, movies getting more graphic aka John Wick (which I like tbh), etc., that something is being lost somehow for the ones committing these acts. At least with radical religious nuts, they have a reason as twisted as it is. Or with gang violence there is a reason that makes some sort of sense. But many of these school shootings just dont have a 'understandable' reason behind it like most other acts of murder.

Anyways just thinking out loud here.

Nothing wrong with throwing out thoughts, anger, and/or ideas. Bottom line: this morning 9 parents said goodbye to their children as they sent them off to school and they did not return. Another adult kissed their spouse and wished them well at work and he/she did not return. Everybody is looking for answer, but not sure what the answer is.  

[GMDino]

(05-18-2018, 09:34 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I wont argue any of this. It could be fame mixed with the rise of the internet and social media sites, which of course also could influence copycat like acts of murder.

But in a way to me that suggests that with the rise of smartphones (the main social media medium), internet, movies getting more graphic aka John Wick (which I like tbh), etc., that something is being lost somehow for the ones committing these acts. At least with radical religious nuts, they have a reason as twisted as it is. Or with gang violence there is a reason that makes some sort of sense. But many of these school shootings just dont have a 'understandable' reason behind it like most other acts of murder.

Anyways just thinking out loud here.

But we're not the only country with all those things.  We're just the ones with the shootings.

[Dill]

(05-18-2018, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think it is a product of the new idea that "Fame" is more important than any "substance".  It used to be that people strove to achieve something so that they could be famous.  Now people just want to be "famous" for no reason or even a bad reason.

A person who feels weak and oppressed thinks he can become the most famous person in the country. That makes them feel powerful because fame is so important now it doesn't matter what you are famous for.

A higher percentage of the population owned guns in 1970, and I assume we had just as much mental illness as today.  yet back then mass shooting (other than family massacres) were unheard of.

According to the brief news account I saw, the kid was depressed and suicidal.  

[*Nately120*]

(05-18-2018, 09:31 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Those kids used to be able to fist fight it out in school and get detention.  With no tolerance policies it stays inside until it just boils over with a weapon.     I am sure everyone would rather see more fist fights at sjool rather than letting it escalate to serious violence.    Kids need an outlet.

The social media culture of today does push celebrity over all else.

I don't know the whole story, but didn't this guy shoot a girl who kept rejecting his creepy advances?  I'm not sure how promoting fist fighting would have prevented this from going further.  I guess the guy could have beaten her up, or fought the guy she wanted to date instead?  Hell, maybe Islamic terrorists wouldn't want to kill us if we just made it legal for them to punch us.

This looks to me like a male decided he has a right to grab whatever female he desires and if she resists then he's within his right to feel cheated.  This is a multi-faceted issue with political figures and Hollywod itself constantly promoting the idea that sociopathic actions get the girl. We are a very angry culture and we romanticize the notions of fighting, shooting, and getting revenge when we've been "wronged" or when we decide we are under attack and need to "defend" ourselves.  This doesn't seem very fame-driven to me.  This is one of those "you get out what you put in" sort of situations and our society fills the heads of the populace with non-stop insanity via real and fictitious media and then makes sure we're over-armed just to sweeten the pot.

Just my take.  

[GMDino]

(05-21-2018, 09:38 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't know the whole story, but didn't this guy shoot a girl who kept rejecting his creepy advances?  I'm not sure how promoting fist fighting would have prevented this from going further.  I guess the guy could have beaten her up, or fought the guy she wanted to date instead?  Hell, maybe Islamic terrorists wouldn't want to kill us if we just made it legal for them to punch us.

This looks to me like a male decided he has a right to grab whatever female he desires and if she resists then he's within his right to feel cheated.  This is a multi-faceted issue with political figures and Hollywod itself constantly promoting the idea that sociopathic actions get the girl.  We are a very angry culture and we romanticize the notions of fighting, shooting, and getting revenge when we've been "wronged" or when we decide we are under attack and need to "defend" ourselves.  This doesn't seem very fame-driven to me.  This is one of those "you get out what you put in" sort of situations and our society fills the heads of the populace with non-stop insanity via real and fictitious media and then makes sure we're over-armed just to sweeten the pot.

Just my take.  

This.

The same crowd that say we can't blame guns insists we can pigeon hole these guys into all being mentally ill, bullied, etc.

There's no one reason and there's no one answer.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-21-2018, 09:38 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I don't know the whole story, but didn't this guy shoot a girl who kept rejecting his creepy advances?  I'm not sure how promoting fist fighting would have prevented this from going further.  I guess the guy could have beaten her up, or fought the guy she wanted to date instead?  Hell, maybe Islamic terrorists wouldn't want to kill us if we just made it legal for them to punch us.

This looks to me like a male decided he has a right to grab whatever female he desires and if she resists then he's within his right to feel cheated.  This is a multi-faceted issue with political figures and Hollywod itself constantly promoting the idea that sociopathic actions get the girl. We are a very angry culture and we romanticize the notions of fighting, shooting, and getting revenge when we've been "wronged" or when we decide we are under attack and need to "defend" ourselves.  This doesn't seem very fame-driven to me.  This is one of those "you get out what you put in" sort of situations and our society fills the heads of the populace with non-stop insanity via real and fictitious media and then makes sure we're over-armed just to sweeten the pot.

Just my take.  

He wasn’t going to fist fight a girl. Unless he was just a *****. Which given his choices, he probably was one. I’m not sure that fueled his rage as much as the teasing in the locker room by teammates and coaches. This is where he should have been fighting, he could have stood up for himself many times but wasn’t able given the tolerance policy for fighting. Not saying this will fix the issue but it would release some pressure off these powder kegs. Also Let’s face it, it’s good for kids.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

It's interesting that what we're not hearing about after this shooting is a call to ban revolvers and shotguns. Which rather sheds light on just how inane an "assault weapons" ban is. I waited seven hours in line Saturday to get Nine Inch Nails tickets at the Palladium, one of the topics that we discussed during that interminable wait, was the freeway shootings that used to occur here in the Los Angeles area during the late eighties. They were endlessly reported on and one could be forgiven for getting the impression that they were happening on a daily basis. Then, one day, they just stopped happening, they were no longer a thing. I rather see these school shootings in the same light, just on a national scale. I think if the media stopped reporting on the shooter completely we'd see a rather quick drop off in these type of incidents.

[fredtoast]

(05-21-2018, 11:02 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: He wasn’t going to fist fight a girl. Unless he was just a *****.  Which given his choices, he probably was one.   I’m not sure that fueled his rage as much as the teasing in the locker room by teammates and coaches.  This is where he should have been fighting, he could have stood up for himself many times but wasn’t able given the tolerance policy for fighting.   Not saying this will fix the issue but it would release some pressure off these powder kegs.  Also Let’s face it, it’s good for kids.

Getting beaten up does not help anything.  In fact it just makes it worse.

[GMDino]

(05-21-2018, 11:10 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's interesting that what we're not hearing about after this shooting is a call to ban revolvers and shotguns.  Which rather sheds light on just how inane an "assault weapons" ban is.  I waited seven hours in line Saturday to get Nine Inch Nails tickets at the Palladium, one of the topics that we discussed during that interminable wait, was the freeway shootings that used to occur here in the Los Angeles area during the late eighties.  They were endlessly reported on and one could be forgiven for getting the impression that they were happening on a daily basis.  Then, one day, they just stopped happening, they were no longer a thing.  I rather see these school shootings in the same light, just on a national scale.  I think if the media stopped reporting on the shooter completely we'd see a rather quick drop off in these type of incidents.

"Ignore it and it will go away" is a great plan for everything!

[*Nately120*]

(05-21-2018, 11:02 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: He wasn’t going to fist fight a girl. Unless he was just a *****.  Which given his choices, he probably was one.   I’m not sure that fueled his rage as much as the teasing in the locker room by teammates and coaches.  This is where he should have been fighting, he could have stood up for himself many times but wasn’t able given the tolerance policy for fighting.   Not saying this will fix the issue but it would release some pressure off these powder kegs.  Also Let’s face it, it’s good for kids.

So our liberal society is both making boys into makeup-wearing wimps, but it's also making them into mass-shooting, gun-loving murderers  Call me skeptical.  But hey, maybe if I would have spent more of my formative years getting my head stomped in this would all make more sense.

(05-21-2018, 11:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Getting beaten up does not help anything.  In fact it just makes it worse.

Isn't it interesting how the Parkland shooter's history of fighting and violence was used to chide authorities for not recognizing him as a threat to go on a shooting spree but now we're supposed to view NOT getting into fights with classmates as a sign someone is going to go overboard?  I just can't keep up with it.

[GMDino]

(05-21-2018, 11:51 AM)Nately120 Wrote: So our liberal society is both making boys into makeup-wearing wimps, but it's also making them into mass-shooting, gun-loving murderers  Call me skeptical.  But hey, maybe if I would have spent more of my formative years getting my head stomped in this would all make more sense.

You don't understand the plight of the "Alpha male" in  current society.

They are being told that fights are not the best way to solve problems and they don't know what to do when picked on anymore!!

So we have to pick on them and then let them fight so they grow up to be, uh, people who pick on others?

I dunno...but....guns!

[*Nately120*]

(05-21-2018, 12:06 PM)GMDino Wrote: You don't understand the plight of the "Alpha male" in  current society.

They are being told that fights are not the best way to solve problems and they don't know what to do when picked on anymore!!

So we have to pick on them and then let them fight so they grow up to be, uh, people who pick on others?

I dunno...but....guns!

Yes, but as soon as they turn 18 they're allowed to carry a gun and lethally "stand their ground" against those who still wish to fist fight.  Man, what a strange world.  Being a straight while male is hell on earth, I tells ya.  

Like I said, the Parkland shooter had nearly 30 instances of discipline/fighting etc. where authorities had to get involved, so I assume there were some that went unnoticed. How that guy didn't get all the violence out of his system, I'll never know!


EDIT: Also, does this "let him punch the anger away" axiom work in cases of domestic abuse, too? Like, if a man doesn't vent his anger by non-lethally beating his wife should we assume he is MORE likely to kill her than a man who uses his fists to get that anger out? I can just see that...hmm, if he doesn't beat you he's probably penning it all up and he'll explode and shoot you. That's why I suggest women go for men who know how to vent.

Ehh, but then again this whole manly code of punching other men also comes with the manly code of never hitting a woman. Back in my day, if it had testicles we beat it to a pulp, and if it didn't, we didn't. Easy enough. Males vent all their frustrations via conflicts with other males. That's actually a pretty apt explanation for some of the things I've seen.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-21-2018, 11:41 AM)GMDino Wrote: "Ignore it and it will go away" is a great plan for everything!

A slight increase in reading comprehension would have revealed that reporting on the incident wasn't mentioned and that not reporting on the actual shooter was.  Nothing would be ignored, but the shooter would be denied their desired outcome, infamy.  Feel free to go back to deliberately misinterpreting people.