Another School Shooting

[fredtoast]

(05-25-2018, 01:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  The Parkland shooter killed 17 as opposed to the current shooter who killed 10.  Cruz was given an inordinate amount of time due to the cowardly actions of Deputy "About to Retire".  The Texas shooter was almost immediately engaged by law enforcement, who kept him pinned down.  If the current shooter had been given the time to act that Cruz had he would have easily exceeded the numbers killed in Parkland.

I disagree.  Everything else being equal I believe a person with a semi auto rifle and a 30 round clip could kill more people faster than a guy with a shotgun simply because he could fire 30 time in 20 seconds as opposed to the guy with the shotgun who has to reload every 5 or 6 shots.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-25-2018, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I disagree.  Everything else being equal I believe a person with a semi auto rifle and a 30 round clip could kill more people faster than a guy with a shotgun simply because he could fire 30 time in 20 seconds as opposed to the guy with the shotgun who has to reload every 5 or 6 shots.

Sorry, no.  Firing fast doesn't mean hitting anything.  In fact it means the opposite.

[fredtoast]

(05-25-2018, 02:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sorry, no.  Firing fast doesn't mean hitting anything.  In fact it means the opposite.

Then why does the military use semi auto rifles?

[*Nately120*]

(05-25-2018, 02:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why does the military use semi auto rifles?

Because they are real men who got punched in the face as boys

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-25-2018, 02:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why does the military use semi auto rifles?

You're on a role today, question wise.  You know the military also uses shotguns, right?

[Belsnickel]

(05-25-2018, 12:28 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Other way around, my friend.  The 5.56mm round has a slightly longer "neck"  Also the chamber pressure is a bit higher.  A .223 chambered firearm cannot always fire a 5.56, a 5.56 chambered firearm can always fire a .223.  It's the exact opposite of the 7.62x51mm and .308 winchester rounds.

Okay, that makes sense why I got it backwards. I've never owned a .223/5.56, but I've had plenty of .308s in my time we used to have an M14 that I loved shooting.

[fredtoast]

(05-25-2018, 02:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're on a role today, question wise.  You know the military also uses shotguns, right?

Yes.  I have already acknowledged that they use all sorts of weapons from hand guns to flame throwers.  But as far as I know the standard issue combat weapon is a semi auto rifle, not a bolt action single shot.  If slower is better why don't they issue bolt action (other than snipers).

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-25-2018, 02:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Okay, that makes sense why I got it backwards. I've never owned a .223/5.56, but I've had plenty of .308s in my time we used to have an M14 that I loved shooting.

Glad to be of assistance.

(05-25-2018, 03:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  I have already acknowledged that they use all sorts of weapons from hand guns to flame throwers.  But as far as I know the standard issue combat weapon is a semi auto rifle, not a bolt action single shot.  If slower is better why don't they issue bolt action (other than snipers).

Why do they use lots of different weapons systems?  Because no one weapon system is the ideal weapon in every feasible combat environment.  Sniper rifles are bolt action in many cases btw.  The standard issue weapon is a select fie (not semi-auto) rifle because most combat engagements will take place at a range for which shotguns are near, if not totally, useless.  In fact, our soldiers had issues in Afghanistan because the engagement distance has frequently been further than is optimal for M4's equipped with 14 inch barrels.  Hence units were being issued with old M14's to accommodate this greater engagement distance.  All that being said, the optimal weapon for fighting room to room would be a shotgun.  A shotgun's deficiencies, lack of ranger being paramount, prevent it from being issued in numbers for other environments.

[*bfine32*]

(05-25-2018, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I disagree.  Everything else being equal I believe a person with a semi auto rifle and a 30 round clip could kill more people faster than a guy with a shotgun simply because he could fire 30 time in 20 seconds as opposed to the guy with the shotgun who has to reload every 5 or 6 shots.

Do you know why I used a shotgun in combat? Because I knew my likelihood of hitting and immediately neutralizing a target at close range was better. You can fire more shots quicker with the long rifle; however, they must be carefully aimed to have the desired effect. 

SSF's original question stands and has not been answered. Why has there not been outrage over shotguns and revolvers after this shooting? And the answer is not because I can kill more people with an AR-15 type weapon. I can do so at a longer range, but that advantage is often negated inside the confines of a building

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Just think of the damage this kid could have done if he loaded his own shells and mixed rat poison in with the 00 shot.

[*bfine32*]

(05-25-2018, 05:17 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Just think of the damage this kid could have done if he loaded his own shells and mixed rat poison in with the 00 shot.

Thanks for this. Although it was most likely an attempt at wit, it did make realize how macabre discussing the matter in such a fashion is and one, from which, I will withdraw.  

[fredtoast]

(05-25-2018, 05:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: SSF's original question stands and has not been answered. Why has there not been outrage over shotguns and revolvers after this shooting? And the answer is not because I can kill more people with an AR-15 type weapon.

Yes the answer is that you can kill more people faster with an AR-15 type weapon.

How long does it take to load and fire 30 rounds with a shotgun or revolver?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-25-2018, 02:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why does the military use semi auto rifles?

Suppression of return fire through fire superiority is the answer to that question.

Yet the chosen sniper rifle for the Army and Marine Corps were the M24 and the M40, both bolt actions. Special Forces also use the MSR, which is bolt action.

Even the trend of DRMs like the SR-25 for Afghanistan are rifles that have slower firing rates and single fire only.

Increased fire rate is mainly just to make the other guys duck down and stop firing back at you, or at least take a lot less time to properly aim their return fire.



EDIT: Remembered something a drill sergeant told me when I was in Basic. The reason why a lot of models of M16 don't have automatic fire options anymore is because on the first model used in Vietnam they had single or autofire options and there was something like 50,000 rounds fired per dead enemy combatant. Not sure if that's a legit stat, but it was what I was told when I was in.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(05-25-2018, 05:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Thanks for this. Although it was most likely an attempt at wit, it did make realize how macabre discussing the matter in such a fashion is and one, from which, I will withdraw.  

You're right it is and it's not an attempt at wit, it was a serious statement that I see now as a mistake.

EDIT: I don't even know what point I was trying to make. I think it was because of a discussion I had earlier in the day and it slipped into this one.