Antifa: need to know

[StLucieBengal]

More from antifa .

[StLucieBengal]

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-20-2017, 08:38 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: There is a petition on the White House site to list antifa as a terrorist organization. I don't disagree. I am just concerned that people will continue to attempt lumping all people who protest against racists and are a part of the resistance movement are antifa. That's been my issue all along, is people trying to lump all liberal protesters in with them.

Like some people around here lump all people who defend the right of anyone to speak publicly in with nazis?  There's been a concerted effort to brand all right leaning marchers as racist or white supremacists, what's good for the goose and all.

[Dill]

(08-20-2017, 11:11 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Not one person here is "siding with the Nazi's".  And most are not siding with the communist enforcers antifa either......  by not treating them the same as the "Nazi's" you give them legitimacy when they are as evil as any white supremecists or domestic terrorist group.

Can't agree with you there, Lucie.

Communists think all men and all women should be equal. They were among the first political groups in the US to oppose racism--well before "liberals." They oppose capitalist exploitation and war.  Those are not "evil" goals.

Fascists embrace political equality and view war as the highest human activity. To this day they actively support Nazi/Confederate ideals of racial inequality. Those are evil goals.

In any case, Antifa seems to me mainly anarchist, not Communist.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-20-2017, 03:33 PM)Dill Wrote: Can't agree with you there, Lucie.

Communists think all men and all women should be equal. They were among the first political groups in the US to oppose racism--well before "liberals." They oppose capitalist exploitation and war.  Those are not "evil" goals.

Fascists embrace political equality and view war as the highest human activity. To this day they actively support Nazi/Confederate ideals of racial inequality. Those are evil goals.

In any case, Antifa seems to me mainly anarchist, not Communist.  

They also have no tolerance for dissension of any idea they profess and will use violence against those they disagree with.  Communism has never worked and will never work, it is a pie in the sky ideal that runs completely contrary to human nature.  You prefer them as they are more in line with your personal beliefs.  You are right, they don't use race as a discriminatory factor, they just use political belief.  If your beliefs run counter it's off to the reeducation camp for you comrade.

[Dill]

(08-20-2017, 11:21 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think this is an example of the problem we are seeing. You seem to be, with comments like this, equating communism with Nazism or white supremacy. Communism is not inherently bad. It may be a misguided theory of how the world should work, but it is not as reprehensible as the racist beliefs of the white supremacist movements. When you come across in that manner, you are doing nothing but creating an environment in which people will defend these groups so that you can play a game of "gotocha!"

Partially agree with you here, Bels.  Communism is neither inherently bad (if you think humans are naturally equal) and is certainly not as reprehensible as white supremacy.

I am not sure there is a "Communist theory" though. There are various political developments/applications of Marx's writings that fly under the name of "Communism," and no one can stand in for them all. For most Americans, though, it is just label filtered through the lens of its enemy--capitalists and their supporters--applied to a wide range of historical movements and linked to current political threats to the status quo.  Been that way since before WWI.

[Belsnickel]

(08-20-2017, 11:50 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I think the millions who have been oppressed and killed by communism worldwide might object.

The only environment I am creating is one that is against white supremecitsts, Nazi's, anarchists, and communists. Now if anyone wants to support any of these groups then please by all means post away.

Those people weren't killed by communism, they were killed by dictators. Communism has no dictator, it has no ruler, it is a pure democracy. Communism has not truly existed in any independent state's government.

[Belsnickel]

(08-20-2017, 11:51 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The second video is antifa doing it in Charlottesville.

Your point? The racists did it in Charlottesville, as well. That still does not dispute my statement.

(08-20-2017, 12:12 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: So yes?

You're being excessively nitpicky at what's only minor differences between ANTIFA members and spokespeople. When a group of people fall on the razors edge of one end of a spectrum, what deviations exist aren't relevant and you're going to find more similarities than differences.

Razor's edge? Yeah, you don't understand liberal ideologies if you think the differences are that small.

[Belsnickel]

(08-20-2017, 03:49 PM)Dill Wrote: Partially agree with you here, Bels.  Communism is neither inherently bad (if you think humans are naturally equal) and is certainly not as reprehensible as white supremacy.

I am not sure there is a "Communist theory" though. There are various political developments/applications of Marx's writings that fly under the name of "Communism," and no one can stand in for them all. For most Americans, though, it is just label filtered through the lens of its enemy--capitalists and their supporters--applied to a wide range of historical movements and linked to current political threats to the status quo.  Been that way since before WWI.

When I speak of communism, I speak of communism in its ideal form. That would be what I consider to be the theory or ideology. Applications of that, such as Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc., are taking bits of communist theory and muddling it with others to create something abhorrent. I know that you understand this, and I know that I should not be too surprised when certain individuals display a lack of knowledge on this, but I can't help it.

[Dill]

(08-20-2017, 03:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They also have no tolerance for dissension of any idea they profess and will use violence against those they disagree with.  Communism has never worked and will never work, it is a pie in the sky ideal that runs completely contrary to human nature.  You prefer them as they are more in line with your personal beliefs.  You are right, they don't use race as a discriminatory factor, they just use political belief.  If your beliefs run counter it's off to the reeducation camp for you comrade.

You start that comment with a pretty big "they."  Would you say that if somewhere there were Communists who did not cart political opponents off to reeducation camps, they were not really Communists?

In what sense does what you are calling Communism run "contrary to human nature"? What is that "pie in the sky ideal"?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-20-2017, 03:57 PM)Dill Wrote: You start that comment with a pretty big "they."  Would you say that if somewhere there were Communists who did not cart political opponents off to reeducation camps, they were not really Communists?

By historical precedent we'd have to go with an affirmative.
 

Quote:In what sense does what you are calling Communism run "contrary to human nature"? What is that "pie in the sky ideal"?

Humans want to be rewarded for their effort, the high functioning productive member getting the exact same as the person who does nothing invariably leads to discontent.  I need look no further than my place of employment to see this.  In government jobs all people with the same job title get paid exactly the same; the person who routinely gets outstanding performance reviews gets compensated exactly the same as the most minimal functioning competent rated employee.  This breeds resentment like I cannot begin to tell you.  A good supervisor, at any level, will endeavor to find ways outside of monetary compensation to reward high functioning employees.  Mind you, no organisational structure exists to accomplish this, one must get creative, within the bounds of policy, to do so.

Communism, as a theory, demands that each give according to their ability and each receive according to their needs.  What incentive is their for anyone to achieve more in such a system?  It won't gain them anything, except possibly a pat on the back and a, "Good job comrade", from your superior.  Communism breeds mediocrity like a petri dish breeds bacteria.  If you disagree, please cite the scientific or cultural accomplishments of communist nations versus those that practice a more merit based system.  The list is so overbalanced as to be comical.

[Belsnickel]

(08-20-2017, 03:57 PM)Dill Wrote: In what sense does what you are calling Communism run "contrary to human nature"? What is that "pie in the sky ideal"?

In all seriousness, all economic theories go to pot once you introduce the human element. Greed dismantles all of them.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(08-20-2017, 03:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: When I speak of communism, I speak of communism in its ideal form. That would be what I consider to be the theory or ideology. Applications of that, such as Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, etc., are taking bits of communist theory and muddling it with others to create something abhorrent. I know that you understand this, and I know that I should not be too surprised when certain individuals display a lack of knowledge on this, but I can't help it.

Then you should know that Communism is best suited for small groups like those of the 60's and 70's Hippie Communes and not for a country as big as the United States.

Communism can only work if everyone taking part agrees with the principles and will work towards achieving that goal and even then there will be those who will feel slighted because there will be someone or a group who doesn't pull their weight.

Communism is truly, in it's purest form a perfect and utopian society but the human can and will never be perfect so it will never work.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-20-2017, 04:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: In all seriousness, all economic theories go to pot once you introduce the human element. Greed dismantles all of them.

I agree with your sentiment, but I wouldn't use the word greed to describe why.  It won't work because humans require recognition/compensation for their accomplishments.  Treating Martin Shkreli the same as Jonas Salk doesn't exactly inspire accomplishment.

[Belsnickel]

(08-20-2017, 05:02 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Then you should know that Communism is best suited for small groups like those of the 60's and 70's Hippie Communes and not for a country as big as the United States.

Communism can only work if everyone taking part agrees with the principles and will work towards achieving that goal and even then there will be those who will feel slighted because there will be someone or a group who doesn't pull their weight.

Communism is truly, in it's purest form a perfect and utopian society but the human can and will never be perfect so it will never work.

I agree, which is why I am not in favor of communism.

(08-20-2017, 05:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I agree with your sentiment, but I wouldn't use the word greed to describe why.  It won't work because humans require recognition/compensation for their accomplishments.  Treating Martin Shkreli the same as Jonas Salk doesn't exactly inspire accomplishment.

I don't disagree that this would also play a factor, but greed would also come into play. It's also what makes pure capitalism unable to function as intended. It is the common denominator that runs through more of them, which is why I tend to generalize.

[StLucieBengal]

I would respond but SSF has pretty much summed it all up.

[Dill]

(08-20-2017, 04:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Communism, as a theory, demands that each give according to their ability and each receive according to their needs.  What incentive is their for anyone to achieve more in such a system?  It won't gain them anything, except possibly a pat on the back and a, "Good job comrade", from your superior.  Communism breeds mediocrity like a petri dish breeds bacteria.  If you disagree, please cite the scientific or cultural accomplishments of communist nations versus those that practice a more merit based system.  The list is so overbalanced as to be comical.

Marx thought that people might be motivated by doing good works for society as a whole; further, in the Communism he envisioned, people would be doing work they liked, developing their own capacities. And he also thought that Communism could not arrive until a society had reached an advanced stage of productive capacity, able to remove scarcity.

I think most "Communists" would say that Communism has not yet existed anywhere."Communist nations" aren't necessarily "Communist." The old Soviet Union was supposed to be an intermediary stage, and many dispute that the People's Republic of China is Communist.

As for those countries that Americans like to call Communist, I am not sure how the terms of a comparison of "scientific or cultural accomplishments" would be framed to avoid a double standard. One of them is now emerging as the US primary competitor for this century. Previous ones were for the most part developing countries with few resources to expend on "culture" when they became "Communist."

[Dill]

(08-20-2017, 04:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: In all seriousness, all economic theories go to pot once you introduce the human element. Greed dismantles all of them.

You don't think all economic theories are equal, or go equally to pot, do you?

As far as greed goes, I can only think of one economic theory/practice that actually embraces and internalizes greed as an operative principle.  Greed seems to drive rather than dismantle that system--at least until it leads to war and/or a depressed economy.

[Dill]

(08-20-2017, 04:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote: You start that comment with a pretty big "they."  Would you say that if somewhere there were Communists who did not cart political opponents off to reeducation camps, they were not really Communists?

By historical precedent we'd have to go with an affirmative.
 

So the Communist Party of Nepal is not really Communist?

Most states I can think of will persecute or incarcerate people and groups they consider seditious. I put the US in this group. 

[Dill]

(08-20-2017, 04:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Humans want to be rewarded for their effort, the high functioning productive member getting the exact same as the person who does nothing invariably leads to discontent.  I need look no further than my place of employment to see this.  In government jobs all people with the same job title get paid exactly the same; the person who routinely gets outstanding performance reviews gets compensated exactly the same as the most minimal functioning competent rated employee.  This breeds resentment like I cannot begin to tell you.  A good supervisor, at any level, will endeavor to find ways outside of monetary compensation to reward high functioning employees.  Mind you, no organisational structure exists to accomplish this, one must get creative, within the bounds of policy, to do so.

You present this sort of personal competition and resentment as "human nature" then, and not the result of socialization into a form of bureaucracy specific to advanced capitalist countries?

Is money the ultimate standard of measurement here or are people sometimes satisfied with other types of recognition--like becoming employees of the month or getting special public citations/awards? Is that how creative supervisors manage morale?