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Antifa: need to know
#21
(08-16-2017, 09:06 AM)Dill Wrote: Can one oppose capitalism and anti-capitalism, fascism and anti-fascism, racism and anti-racism all at the same time?

What would a 3rd way look like?

Except it's not that simple, not remotely.  You don't get to be something simply because you claim to be it.  Antifa is not anti-fascist, they are anti anyone that doesn't fall in lock step with their ideology.  When people fail to do so they respond with violence.  This is not a good versus bad struggle, this is one extremist form of ideology against another.  They both suck, they both engage in the same abhorrent acts, they just use different justifications for doing so.  Your buddy already condoned violence, as long as it is used against people he doesn't like.  I hope you won't fall into the same trap.
#22
(08-16-2017, 09:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Except it's not that simple, not remotely.  You don't get to be something simply because you claim to be it.  Antifa is not anti-fascist, they are anti anyone that doesn't fall in lock step with their ideology.  When people fail to do so they respond with violence.  This is not a good versus bad struggle, this is one extremist form of ideology against another.  They both suck, they both engage in the same abhorrent acts, they just use different justifications for doing so.  Your buddy already condoned violence, as long as it is used against people he doesn't like.  I hope you won't fall into the same trap.

I don't know if I agree with this, because there is no unifying ideology of Antifa, as far as I can tell. Some are anarchist, some are for increased government, some care more about social equality, some care more about who knows what? There was also an instance when clergy were being attacked by the right-wing American fascists and Antifa members jumped int he way to defend them. I doubt the clergy would qualify as falling in lock-step with their ideology, yet they come to their defense.

There is just a lot more nuance to this than a lot of people tend to see.
#23
Surprisingly from the liberal leaning Atlantic Star.

Perhaps this will help calm your hysteria over Trumps "all sides comment".

Written BEFORE the melee in Virginia.
Antifa widely supported by the mainstream left. Gains sympathy from the left since Trumps election.
 
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/the-rise-of-the-violent-left/534192/

Since 1907, Portland, Oregon, has hosted an annual Rose Festival. Since 2007, the festival had included a parade down 82nd Avenue. Since 2013, the Republican Party of Multnomah County, which includes Portland, had taken part. This April, all of that changed.

In the days leading up to the planned parade, a group called the Direct Action Alliance declared, “Fascists plan to march through the streets,” and warned, “Nazis will not march through Portland unopposed.” The alliance said it didn’t object to the Multnomah GOP itself, but to “fascists” who planned to infiltrate its ranks. Yet it also denounced marchers with “Trump flags” and “red maga hats” who could “normalize support for an orange man who bragged about sexually harassing women and who is waging a war of hate, racism and prejudice.” A second group, Oregon Students Empowered, created a Facebook page called “Shut down fascism! No nazis in Portland!”
Next, the parade’s organizers received an anonymous email warning that if “Trump supporters” and others who promote “hateful rhetoric” marched, “we will have two hundred or more people rush into the parade … and drag and push those people out.” When Portland police said they lacked the resources to provide adequate security, the organizers canceled the parade. It was a sign of things to come.



For progressives, Donald Trump is not just another Republican president. Seventy-six percent of Democrats, according to a Suffolk poll from last September, consider him a racist. Last March, according to a YouGov survey, 71 percent of Democrats agreed that his campaign contained “fascist undertones.” All of which raises a question that is likely to bedevil progressives for years to come: If you believe the president of the United States is leading a racist, fascist movement that threatens the rights, if not the lives, of vulnerable minorities, how far are you willing to go to stop it?
In Washington, D.C., the response to that question centers on how members of Congress can oppose Trump’s agenda, on how Democrats can retake the House of Representatives, and on how and when to push for impeachment. But in the country at large, some militant leftists are offering a very different answer. On Inauguration Day, a masked activist punched the white-supremacist leader Richard Spencer. In February, protesters violently disrupted UC Berkeley’s plans to host a speech by Milo Yiannopoulos, a former Breitbart.com editor. In March, protesters pushed and shoved the controversial conservative political scientist Charles Murray when he spoke at Middlebury College, in Vermont.
As far-flung as these incidents were, they have something crucial in common. Like the organizations that opposed the Multnomah County Republican Party’s participation in the 82nd Avenue of Roses Parade, these activists appear to be linked to a movement called “antifa,” which is short for antifascist or Anti-Fascist Action. The movement’s secrecy makes definitively cataloging its activities difficult, but this much is certain: Antifa’s power is growing. And how the rest of the activist left responds will help define its moral character in the Trump age.



Antifa’s violent tactics have elicited substantial support from the mainstream left.


By the 2000s, as the internet facilitated more transatlantic dialogue, some American activists had adopted the name antifa. But even on the militant left, the movement didn’t occupy the spotlight. To most left-wing activists during the Clinton, Bush, and Obama years, deregulated global capitalism seemed like a greater threat than fascism.

Trump has changed that. For antifa, the result has been explosive growth. According to NYC Antifa, the group’s Twitter following nearly quadrupled in the first three weeks of January alone. (By summer, it exceeded 15,000.) Trump’s rise has also bred a new sympathy for antifa among some on the mainstream left. “Suddenly,” noted the antifa-aligned journal It’s Going Down, “anarchists and antifa, who have been demonized and sidelined by the wider Left have been hearing from liberals and Leftists, ‘you’ve been right all along.’ ” An article in The Nation argued that “to call Trumpism fascist” is to realize that it is “not well combated or contained by standard liberal appeals to reason.” The radical left, it said, offers “practical and serious responses in this political moment.”


Those responses sometimes spill blood. Since antifa is heavily composed of anarchists, its activists place little faith in the state, which they consider complicit in fascism and racism.
They prefer direct action: They pressure venues to deny white supremacists space to meet. They pressure employers to fire them and landlords to evict them. And when people they deem racists and fascists manage to assemble, antifa’s partisans try to break up their gatherings, including by force.

Such tactics have elicited substantial support from the mainstream left.
When the masked antifa activist was filmed assaulting Spencer on Inauguration Day, another piece in The Nation described his punch as an act of “kinetic beauty.” Slate ran an approving article about a humorous piano ballad that glorified the assault. Twitter was inundated with viral versions of the video set to different songs, prompting the former Obama speechwriter Jon Favreau to tweet, “I don’t care how many different songs you set Richard Spencer being punched to, I’ll laugh at every one.”
The violence is not directed only at avowed racists like Spencer: In June of last year, demonstrators—at least some of whom were associated with antifa—punched and threw eggs at people exiting a Trump rally in San Jose, California. An article in It’s Going Down celebrated the “righteous beatings.”
[Image: 06c49cbed.jpg]An antifascist demonstrator burns a Blue Lives Matter flag during a protest in Portland, Oregon, in June. (Scott Olson / Getty)
Antifascists call such actions defensive. Hate speech against vulnerable minorities, they argue, leads to violence against vulnerable minorities. But Trump supporters and white nationalists see antifa’s attacks as an assault on their right to freely assemble, which they in turn seek to reassert. The result is a level of sustained political street warfare not seen in the U.S. since the 1960s. A few weeks after the attacks in San Jose, for instance, a white-supremacist leader announced that he would host a march in Sacramento to protest the attacks at Trump rallies. Anti-Fascist Action Sacramento called for a counterdemonstration; in the end, at least 10 people were stabbed.


A similar cycle has played out at UC Berkeley. In February, masked antifascists broke store windows and hurled Molotov cocktails and rocks at police during a rally against the planned speech by Yiannopoulos. After the university canceled the speech out of what it called “concern for public safety,” white nationalists announced a “March on Berkeley” in support of “free speech.” At that rally, a 41-year-old man named Kyle Chapman, who was wearing a baseball helmet, ski goggles, shin guards, and a mask, smashed an antifa activist over the head with a wooden post. Suddenly, Trump supporters had a viral video of their own. A far-right crowdfunding site soon raised more than $80,000 for Chapman’s legal defense. (In January, the same site had offered a substantial reward for the identity of the antifascist who had punched Spencer.) A politicized fight culture is emerging, fueled by cheerleaders on both sides. As James Anderson, an editor at It’s Going Down, told Vice, “This shit is fun.”
Portland offers perhaps the clearest glimpse of where all of this can lead. The Pacific Northwest has long attracted white supremacists, who have seen it as a haven from America’s multiracial East and South. In 1857, Oregon (then a federal territory) banned African Americans from living there. By the 1920s, it boasted the highest Ku Klux Klan membership rate of any state.
In 1988, neo-Nazis in Portland killed an Ethiopian immigrant with a baseball bat. Shortly thereafter, notes Alex Reid Ross, a lecturer at Portland State University and the author of Against the Fascist Creep, anti-Nazi skinheads formed a chapter of Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice. Before long, the city also had an Anti-Racist Action group.


Now, in the Trump era, Portland has become a bastion of antifascist militancy. Masked protesters smashed store windows during multiday demonstrations following Trump’s election. In early April, antifa activists threw smoke bombs into a “Rally for Trump and Freedom” in the Portland suburb of Vancouver, Washington. A local paper said the ensuing melee resembled a mosh pit.
When antifascists forced the cancellation of the 82nd Avenue of Roses Parade, Trump supporters responded with a “March for Free Speech.” Among those who attended was Jeremy Christian, a burly ex-con draped in an American flag, who uttered racial slurs and made Nazi salutes. A few weeks later, on May 25, a man believed to be Christian was filmed calling antifa “a bunch of punk bitches.”
The next day, Christian boarded a light-rail train and began yelling that “colored people” were ruining the city. He fixed his attention on two teenage girls, one African American and the other wearing a hijab, and told them “to go back to Saudi Arabia” or “kill themselves.” As the girls retreated to the back of the train, three men interposed themselves between Christian and his targets. “Please,” one said, “get off this train.” Christian stabbed all three. One bled to death on the train. One was declared dead at a local hospital. One survived.
The cycle continued. Nine days after the attack, on June 4, Trump supporters hosted another Portland rally, this one featuring Chapman, who had gained fame with his assault on the antifascist in Berkeley. Antifa activists threw bricks until the police dispersed them with stun grenades and tear gas.


What’s eroding in Portland is the quality Max Weber considered essential to a functioning state: a monopoly on legitimate violence. As members of a largely anarchist movement, antifascists don’t want the government to stop white supremacists from gathering. They want to do so themselves, rendering the government impotent. With help from other left-wing activists, they’re already having some success at disrupting government. Demonstrators have interrupted so many city-council meetings that in February, the council met behind locked doors. In February and March, activists protesting police violence and the city’s investments in the Dakota Access Pipeline hounded Mayor Ted Wheeler so persistently at his home that he took refuge in a hotel. The fateful email to parade organizers warned, “The police cannot stop us from shutting down roads.”
All of this fuels the fears of Trump supporters, who suspect that liberal bastions are refusing to protect their right to free speech. Joey Gibson, a Trump supporter who organized the June 4 Portland rally, told me that his “biggest pet peeve is when mayors have police stand down … They don’t want conservatives to be coming together and speaking.” To provide security at the rally, Gibson brought in a far-right militia called the Oath Keepers. In late June, James Buchal, the chair of the Multnomah County Republican Party, announced that it too would use militia members for security, because “volunteers don’t feel safe on the streets of Portland.”
#24
Nazis killed a woman in the US of A in 2017.

No need to distract from that.

Rock On
[Image: giphy.gif]
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
#25
(08-16-2017, 11:25 AM)Vlad Wrote: Surprisingly from the liberal leaning Atlantic Star.

Perhaps this will help calm your hysteria over Trumps "all sides comment".

Nope. The right-wing American fascists came to incite and provoke violence. They came for war and they committed an act of terrorism. You can discuss the role Antifa plays in the overall political environment, but the many sides comments about this past weekend are wrong. Trump made factually inaccurate statements about this past weekend, showing he does not know what went on there.
#26
(08-16-2017, 09:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Except it's not that simple, not remotely.  You don't get to be something simply because you claim to be it.  Antifa is not anti-fascist, they are anti anyone that doesn't fall in lock step with their ideology.  When people fail to do so they respond with violence.  This is not a good versus bad struggle, this is one extremist form of ideology against another.  They both suck, they both engage in the same abhorrent acts, they just use different justifications for doing so.  Your buddy already condoned violence, as long as it is used against people he doesn't like.  I hope you won't fall into the same trap.

Asking if one can be fascist and anti-fascist at the same time doesn't lead one down the road of oversimplification.

You aren't not something just because you claim not to be either.

Allies and Axis during WWII engaged in the same abhorrent acts, just using different justifications.

One may condemn some of Antifa's actions without equating them them the KKK, I think. They don't seem to respond with violence to just anyone who disagrees them. Both Nazis and Antifa use violence against people they don't like. Nazis don't like people because of their race and Antifa don't like people who don't like people because of their race.
[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]
#27
(08-16-2017, 11:25 AM)Vlad Wrote: Perhaps this will help calm your hysteria over Trumps "all sides comment".

The next day, Christian boarded a light-rail train and began yelling that “colored people” were ruining the city. He fixed his attention on two teenage girls, one African American and the other wearing a hijab, and told them “to go back to Saudi Arabia” or “kill themselves.” As the girls retreated to the back of the train, three men interposed themselves between Christian and his targets. “Please,” one said, “get off this train.” Christian stabbed all three. One bled to death on the train. One was declared dead at a local hospital. One survived.

Not really.
[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]
#28
(08-16-2017, 12:53 PM)Dill Wrote: Asking if one can be fascist and anti-fascist at the same time doesn't lead one down the road of oversimplification.

You aren't not something just because you claim not to be either.

Allies and Axis during WWII engaged in the same abhorrent acts, just using different justifications.

So you're equating Antifa with the Allies in WW2?  Or is this your clever way of trying to make that comparison ina  deniable way?


Quote:One may condemn some of Antifa's actions without equating them them the KKK, I think.

I've never equated them to the KKK or Nazis.  I've equated them to what they are, thugs who use violence against people who's political views they disapprove of.


Quote:They don't seem to respond with violence to just anyone who disagrees them.

Tell the guy who got hit in the head with a bike lock for no reason.  As much as he's a troll, Milo is no KKK member or Nazi.  So yeah, they absolutely do seem to use violence on people they disagree with.

Quote:Both Nazis and Antifa use violence against people they don't like. Nazis don't like people because of their race and Antifa don't like people who don't like people because of their race.

Yet another exculpatory simplification couched to cast Antifa in a positive light.  Try as you might you and GMDino just can't stop yourself from trying to excuse the violence coming from left leaning groups.  Say it with me, violence is not an acceptable response to speech, even really vile speech.  I'm not sure why this concept is difficult to grasp.
#29
Im not a fan of handling well armed hate groups with kid gloves.

There is free speech. Then there is threats. A group of armed Nazis and KKK members goes beyond free speech.

I guess that makes me antifa since i believe armed hate groups shouldn't be allowed to bring fear into the citizens of American cities.
#30
(08-16-2017, 07:02 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Im not a fan of handling well armed hate groups with kid gloves.

Who is?


Quote:There is free speech. Then there is threats. A group of armed Nazis and KKK members goes beyond free speech.

That would be incorrect.  The armed people there were in compliance with state law.  The law applies equally to everyone, no one gets to pick and choose which groups are worthy of its protection.


Quote:I guess that makes me antifa since i believe armed hate groups shouldn't be allowed to bring fear into the citizens of American cities.

Bring fear in how?  By their presence, by their ideology?  By their being armed in a legal manner?  Banning something because it causes you fear is a slippery slope of epic proportions.  The Bengals would never be able to take the field against the Steelers again.   Smirk
#31
Why are we mincing words and hedging around?

There are some people on the left that think violence is the answer to the hate on the right.  They are wrong.

The hate on the right should be shouted down at every opportunity by every citizen...without violence.

But it IS hate on the right.  

Nazis/white supremacists are bad.  All of their methods are bad.  They are Nazis. 

The people fighting them are good.  But some of the methods of a minority of them are bad...but not all of their methods are bad.  They oppose the Nazis.

Same people who thought waterboarding was an excellent way to handle anyone even considered (with no proof) a terrorist want the left to handle Nazis with kid gloves and "just let them talk and assemble peacefully"  Hilarious
[Image: giphy.gif]
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
#32
(08-16-2017, 07:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: Nazis/white supremacists are bad.  All of their methods are bad.  They are Nazis. 

The people fighting them are good.  But some of the methods of a minority of them are bad...but not all of their methods are bad.  They oppose the Nazis.
So Stalin was a good guy.  Outstanding.  ThumbsUp
#33
(08-16-2017, 07:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So Stalin was a good guy.  Outstanding.  ThumbsUp

Nervous

I like pizza.

Smirk
[Image: giphy.gif]
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
#34
(08-16-2017, 07:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: Nervous

I like pizza.

Smirk


Talk to Richard Branson, he may be able to get you on a vehicle capable of getting high enough to reach the point you missed.  Smirk
#35
(08-16-2017, 07:02 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Im not a fan of handling well armed hate groups with kid gloves.

There is free speech. Then there is threats. A group of armed Nazis and KKK members goes beyond free speech.

I guess that makes me antifa since i believe armed hate groups shouldn't be allowed to bring fear into the citizens of American cities.

I haven't seen any pictures or reports showing any of the bad guys with guns.  Could you show them to me?  However, I have seen footage of the antifa crowd with objects.
[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]

Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations

-Frank Booth 1/9/23
#36
(08-16-2017, 07:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I haven't seen any pictures or reports showing any of the bad guys with guns.  Could you show them to me?  However, I have seen footage of the antifa crowd with objects.

Oh, these pictures exist, it doesn't change any of the points being made though.
#37
(08-16-2017, 07:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Talk to Richard Branson, he may be able to get you on a vehicle capable of getting high enough to reach the point you missed.  Smirk

No, I understood.  Comparing the current protesters to Stalin because he too opposed the Nazis.  I just don't see why Stalin was brought in other than to make some inane point that not everyone who fought the Nazis was a good guy.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say each and every person was a good person.  

Heck even the most peaceful of protesters could be a serial killer for all I know.

I'll still support the ones that are against the Nazis and then sort them out later.

But, uh, thanks?
[Image: giphy.gif]
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
#38
(08-16-2017, 07:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Oh, these pictures exist, it doesn't change any of the points being made though.

The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives" (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85).

"furtherance of political or social objectives"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^KEY PART^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]

Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations

-Frank Booth 1/9/23
#39
(08-16-2017, 07:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I haven't seen any pictures or reports showing any of the bad guys with guns.  Could you show them to me?  However, I have seen footage of the antifa crowd with objects.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/08/the_first_and_second_amendments_clashed_in_charlottesville_the_guns_won.html

http://www.haaretz.com/us-news/1.806571



http://www.weny.com/story/36132110/trump-made-two-statements-on-charlottesville-this-is-what-the-alt-right-heard



https://www.inverse.com/article/35455-charlottesville-va-rally-white-kkk-unite-the-right-antifa-photos

[Image: neo-nazis-attempt-to-ram-their-way-throu...ress&w=700]
[Image: giphy.gif]
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
#40
(08-16-2017, 08:03 PM)GMDino Wrote: No, I understood.  Comparing the current protesters to Stalin because he too opposed the Nazis.  I just don't see why Stalin was brought in other than to make some inane point that not everyone who fought the Nazis was a good guy.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say each and every person was a good person.  

Heck even the most peaceful of protesters could be a serial killer for all I know.

I'll still support the ones that are against the Nazis and then sort them out later.

But, uh, thanks?

You said the people fighting the nazis are good simply by dint of the fact they are fighting nazis.  I used a real world direct equivalency that proves how utterly brain dead such an argument is.

Quote:GMDino




Nazis/white supremacists are bad.  All of their methods are bad.  They are Nazis. 

The people fighting them are good.  



But, uh, you're welcome. 





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