Antifa: need to know

[Belsnickel]

(08-16-2017, 11:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Dang, you seem to know a lot, about this situation!  Was that you, in the Red bandito mask? 

I wasn't there, but I know a lot of locals that were, as well as several of the clergy. I also went over on Sunday and talked to people at a service for Heather where the terrorist attack took place. When this happens in your backyard, you tend to pay a lot of attention to it.

I am heading back over on Saturday to spend some time with friends on the downtown mall.

[GMDino]

(08-17-2017, 01:38 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Yep

Groups we have gone to war with trying to reestablish is a big one and many other reasons.

We have the right to free speech and peaceably assemble. Not hold hate rallys calling for ethnic cleansing and violence while marching armed and with torches aggressively trying to intimidate.

lll keep advocating for the fight against enemies of America. You do you and support our sworn enemies.

Might as well give it up.  Direct answers will not be accepted.  Another variable will be thrown in to accuse the responder of "not answering the question." 

Some people are intent on finding a way to attack the left no matter who they are standing up to...including self-proclaimed Nazis.

[NATI BENGALS]

(08-17-2017, 01:47 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You do realize that the "groups we've gone to war with" no longer exist in that form?  You do know this right?



So marching with torches and legally carrying firearms constitutes illegal activity in your opinion?  Odd that neither actually break the law yet you feel they do.  Maybe because you're making decisions based on your emotional beliefs and not on the rule of law?  Sadly, you don't see how dangerous a precedent allowing that kind of interpretation would set.


If by "sworn enemies" you mean our Constitution and Bill of Rights then sure?


Why do you hate America?

So we should sit by why the same groups get stronger in our own backyard until you see it fit to call them a threat ? I dont think so. They do exsist in a form and it is their beliefs and agenda that tie them together.

Right... Me and my anti American ideas not supporting nazis and traitors. Super weak arguments.

At one time i took an oath to fight enemies foreign and domestic. 

You do a lousy job identifying the enemy.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-17-2017, 11:22 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: So we should sit by why the same groups get stronger in our own backyard until you see it fit to call them a threat ? I dont think so. They do exsist in a form and it is their beliefs and agenda that tie them together.

How exactly are they "getting stronger", by having an assembly?  They exercise zero political power, they have the support of a minuscule fraction of US citizens.  I would argue that you give them more power then they would ever have otherwise when you take them as seriously as you clearly do.  I'll add this, radical actions cause radical reactions.  The radical left and right are currently in a self perpetuating cycle, constantly reinforcing each other and upping the ante.  It's time for normal people to stand up and say enough, no more violence from either of you and if you continue to engage in this behavior then the response from law enforcement will be quick and decisive.

Quote:Right... Me and my anti American ideas not supporting nazis and traitors. Super weak arguments.

They would be, if that was the argument I was making.  It isn't, I support the Constitution and Bill of Rights.  Quite simply, the 1st amendment covers everyone's speech, not just the speech you like or deem non-hate speech.  I'll repeat it, the 1st amendment covers everyone.

Quote:At one time i took an oath to fight enemies foreign and domestic. 

I have too, several times.  I'm currently in a job that requires such an oath, hence my unflagging support for the Bill or Rights, even when those exercising the freedoms given by it are abhorrent to me.

Quote:You do a lousy job identifying the enemy.

Au contraire mon frère, I have done an excellent job of identifying the enemy.  The enemy is anyone who would subvert or destroy the principles on which this country was founded.  Be it left wing radicals like antifa, right wing radicals like neo-nazis or sympathizers of either who want to use the law to shut down speech because they don't like what's being said.


Say it with me, right now and we can end this ridiculous back and forth.  It is wrong for any group to use violence against any group solely because they find the words or ideals of said group to be offensive, abhorrent or hateful.  Say it and we'll be on the exact same page and we can move on.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-17-2017, 11:35 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfa n Wrote: Quite simply, the 1st amendment covers everyone's speech, not just the speech you like or deem non-hate speech.  I'll repeat it, the 1st amendment covers everyone.

This is why I get worried everytime I see someone try to claim that "hate speech is not free speech". Uh, yes it is. You don't have to like or agree with the speech, but as long as it's not inciting violence it is protected speech no matter how vile or vulgar it is.

[GMDino]

(08-17-2017, 11:43 AM)PhilHos Wrote: This is why I get worried everytime I see someone try to claim that "hate speech is not free speech". Uh, yes it is. You don't have to like or agree with the speech, but as long as it's not inciting violence it is protected speech no matter how vile or vulgar it is.

Violence is wrong.

Shouting down and constantly opposing hate speech/Nazis is not.

"Free speech" means the government won't stop you.  Doesn't say anything about your fellow citizen.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-17-2017, 11:43 AM)PhilHos Wrote: This is why I get worried everytime I see someone try to claim that "hate speech is not free speech". Uh, yes it is. You don't have to like or agree with the speech, but as long as it's not inciting violence it is protected speech no matter how vile or vulgar it is.

Quite correct, and succinctly put.  Stay tuned for someone who doesn't get it.

(08-17-2017, 11:45 AM)GMDino Wrote: Violence is wrong.

Shouting down and constantly opposing hate speech/Nazis is not.

"Free speech" means the government won't stop you.  Doesn't say anything about your fellow citizen.

Opposing ideas is fine, "shouting down" is a rather nebulous term.  If that means preventing someone from even speaking, that's not ok, because you can't do that without infringing on someone's rights.  If a speaker you find offensive is speaking in an auditorium and you form a human chain around that building and forcefully prevent people from entering you are using violence.  It also shows how weak you believe your counter argument to be that you fear anyone hearing the speaker you oppose.

Say it with me GMDino, using violence against anyone because you oppose their ideas or viewpoints is wrong, any kind of violence.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-17-2017, 11:22 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: So we should sit by why the same groups get stronger in our own backyard until you see it fit to call them a threat ? 

Yes. It's called freedom. As long as they fall under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Constitution, they are entitled to the same freedoms that you enjoy. Until they break the law, they are allowed to believe what they want to believe and say what they want to say. If you don't like it, then as SSF said, maybe the Land of the Free is not the country you want to be living in.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-17-2017, 11:51 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quite correct, and succinctly put.  Stay tuned for someone who doesn't get it.



Opposing ideas is fine, "shouting down" is a rather nebulous term.  If that means preventing someone from even speaking, that's not ok, because you can't do that without infringing on someone's rights.  If a speaker you find offensive is speaking in an auditorium and you form a human chain around that building and forcefully prevent people from entering you are using violence.  It also shows how weak you believe your counter argument to be that you fear anyone hearing the speaker you oppose.

Say it with me GMDino, using violence against anyone because you oppose their ideas or viewpoints is wrong, any kind of violence.

[GMDino]

(08-17-2017, 11:55 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes. It's called freedom. As long as they fall under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Constitution, they are entitled to the same freedoms that you enjoy. Until they break the law, they are allowed to believe what they want to believe and say what they want to say. If you don't like it, then as SSF said, maybe the Land of the Free is not the country you want to be living in.

Calling for the elimination of blacks and jews isn't breaking the law?

But besides that...let them talk.  But yell at them.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-17-2017, 11:57 AM)GMDino Wrote: Calling for the elimination of blacks and jews isn't breaking the law?

It depends on how you do it.  If you exhort others to act, then, no.  

Quote:But besides that...let them talk.  But yell at them.  

Not sure if serious or not.  If not serious then what are you advocating?  Weren't you complaining earlier about not getting direct answers?

[GMDino]

(08-17-2017, 11:51 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quite correct, and succinctly put.  Stay tuned for someone who doesn't get it.



Opposing ideas is fine, "shouting down" is a rather nebulous term.  If that means preventing someone from even speaking, that's not ok, because you can't do that without infringing on someone's rights.  If a speaker you find offensive is speaking in an auditorium and you form a human chain around that building and forcefully prevent people from entering you are using violence.  It also shows how weak you believe your counter argument to be that you fear anyone hearing the speaker you oppose.

I would only consider blocking people from entering a building "violence" if something was physically done to those trying to enter.

But then I don't think someone asking me what time it is is an affront either.

I'll explain again because I know people are trying to hard so defend the Nazis so they have to keep tweaking their arguments:

Even Nazis can spout their hate and small mindedness freely according to the freedoms given them by "god" and the government of the US. I encourage people to listen to them to demonstrate how stupid and evil they are.

However:

If I saw a Nazi shouting on a street corner I would not act violently. I would yell back that he was evil and not welcome.

Nobody's "free speech" is violated. Everyone who wants to can listen.

(08-17-2017, 11:51 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Say it with me GMDino, using violence against anyone because you oppose their ideas or viewpoints is wrong, any kind of violence.

(08-17-2017, 11:45 AM)GMDino Wrote: Violence is wrong.

Shouting down and constantly opposing hate speech/Nazis is not.

"Free speech" means the government won't stop you.  Doesn't say anything about your fellow citizen.

There are other places I've said it. Free free to search the forums!

[*PhilHos*]

(08-17-2017, 11:57 AM)GMDino Wrote: Calling for the elimination of blacks and jews isn't breaking the law?

No, not unless they were literally rounding people up to go and eliminate blacks and jews.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-17-2017, 12:05 PM)GMDino Wrote: I would only consider blocking people from entering a building "violence" if something was physically done to those trying to enter.

LOL, you realize blocking someone from trying to go where they are going is doing "something physically" to them.  Say you're walking down the street and I place myself in front of you.  You try to walk around me but I continue to place myself in your path.  Would you feel that something physical was being done to you?  Would you feel threatened?

Quote:But then I don't think someone asking me what time it is is an affront either.

Heyoooo, call back!  I know you're feeling desperate when you scramble to resurrect old tropes.

Quote:I'll explain again because I know people are trying to hard so defend free speech so they have to keep tweaking their arguments:

FTFY

Quote:Even Nazis can spout their hate and small mindedness freely according to the freedoms given them by "god" and the government of the US.  I encourage people to listen to them to demonstrate how stupid and evil they are.

You're doing good!  Somehow I doubt it will last.

Quote:However:

If I saw a Nazi shouting on a street corner I would not act violently.  I would yell back that he was evil and not welcome.

Nobody's "free speech" is violated.  Everyone who wants to can listen.

Actually, you're still doing ok, I'm rpoud

Quote:There are other places I've said it.  Free free to search the forums!  

You say it then equivocate.  If only you could be consistent. 

[GMDino]

(08-17-2017, 12:11 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, not unless they were literally rounding people up to go and eliminate blacks and jews.

Okay...but if I see someone walking down the street saying the blacks and the jews need to go/die/be moved I'd probably keep an eye on that guy.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-17-2017, 12:05 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'll explain again because I know people are trying to hard so defend the Nazis 

Who is defending Nazis? All I've seen since I've joined the discussion is a defense of the freedoms afforded by the U.S. Consitution by those who want to restrict it because they dislike a group of people. And the sad thing is I'm not even describing Nazis in that sentence.

[GMDino]

(08-17-2017, 12:14 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Who is defending Nazis? All I've seen since I've joined the discussion is a defense of the freedoms afforded by the U.S. Consitution by those who want to restrict it because they dislike a group of people. And the sad thing is I'm not even describing Nazis in that sentence.

Every single post that tries to reword the "free speech argument" that has yet to be fought.

To a person people have said the Nazis have the right to free speech...but we hate nazis.

Then there is post after post after post from people trying to find a way to make the counter protesters the "bad guys".

Anyone protesting Nazis is ok.  (Violence is not...want to be clear before I'm accused.  Again.   )

Every repost defending the Nazis right to free speech that hasn't been challenged is defending Nazis.

I'd think that given that we are talking about Nazis folks would have said "well they have a right to free speech but boy are they awful people" and that would have been the end of it.

But nope.  A constant stream of figuring a way to make the protesters look worse because....uh, free speech!  

I won't side with the Nazis.

And I'm done.  

[CageTheBengal]

I must be crazy but when I see people chanting Nazi slogans and calling for the elimination of other humans that comes across as inciting violence.

[GMDino]

(08-17-2017, 12:24 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: I must be crazy but when I see people chanting Nazi slogans and calling for the elimination of other humans that comes across as inciting violence.

No, no!  Standing in front of people is violence! 

[*PhilHos*]

(08-17-2017, 12:21 PM)GMDino Wrote: Every single post that tries to reword the "free speech argument" that has yet to be fought.


To a person people have said the Nazis have the right to free speech...but we hate nazis.

Really? Sure sounded like Nati Bengals thinks that Nazi's shouldn't be allowed to do anything in this country, let alone speak. 

GMDino Wrote:Then there is post after post after post from people trying to find a way to make the counter protesters the "bad guys".

Like I said, since I've joined this discussion, I've not seen any of that. I've not read all this posts in this thread or in this forum, but I've nowhere seen anyone trying to make the counterprotesters the bad guys. I have seen some suggest that the counterprotesters aren't innocent of the violence that erupted between the 2 groups, but none that suggest the counterprotesters were the bad ones.

GMDino Wrote:Every repost defending the Nazis right to free speech that hasn't been challenged is defending Nazis.

What? I honestly don't know what you're trying to say here. If someone has said that the Nazis have a right to free speech, but no one challenges that claim, than that person is defending Nazis? Please clarify this statement.

GMDino Wrote:I'd think that given that we are talking about Nazis folks would have said "well they have a right to free speech but boy are they awful people" and that would have been the end of it.

But nope.  A constant stream of figuring a way to make the protesters look worse because....uh, free speech!  

Well, I haven't read through the whole thread, but since I started reading (page 18, I think), I have not seen any of those claims.

GMDino Wrote:I won't side with the Nazis.

And I'm done.  

The Nazis root for the Steelers and said they are going to win the Super Bowl. Uh oh.