Antifa: need to know

[CageTheBengal]

(08-17-2017, 12:28 PM)GMDino Wrote: No, no!  Standing in front of people is violence! 

I guess they have to be very literal and crystal clear before we can accuse them of inciting violence because people chanting Nazi slogans are usually quality people. It's not like they showed up wearing helmets and dressed for violence.

 

[GMDino]

(08-17-2017, 12:32 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: I guess they have to be very literal and crystal clear before we can accuse them of inciting violence because people chanting Nazi slogans are usually quality people. It's not like they showed up wearing helmets and dressed for violence.

 

There were some really nice people who just showed up to talk about the statute.  Many people have told me.  Innocent people!

Not like the woman who was killed.  She was protesting without a permit!

 

[*PhilHos*]

(08-17-2017, 12:36 PM)GMDino Wrote: There were some really nice people who just showed up to talk about the statute.  Many people have told me.  Innocent people!

Not like the woman who was killed.  She was protesting without a permit!

 

Even though you were being sarcastic, you realize you just sided with a Nazi, right? 

[NATI BENGALS]

(08-17-2017, 11:35 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: How exactly are they "getting stronger", by having an assembly?  They exercise zero political power, they have the support of a minuscule fraction of US citizens.  I would argue that you give them more power then they would ever have otherwise when you take them as seriously as you clearly do.  I'll add this, radical actions cause radical reactions.  The radical left and right are currently in a self perpetuating cycle, constantly reinforcing each other and upping the ante.  It's time for normal people to stand up and say enough, no more violence from either of you and if you continue to engage in this behavior then the response from law enforcement will be quick and decisive.



They would be, if that was the argument I was making.  It isn't, I support the Constitution and Bill of Rights.  Quite simply, the 1st amendment covers everyone's speech, not just the speech you like or deem non-hate speech.  I'll repeat it, the 1st amendment covers everyone.



I have too, several times.  I'm currently in a job that requires such an oath, hence my unflagging support for the Bill or Rights, even when those exercising the freedoms given by it are abhorrent to me.


Au contraire mon frère, I have done an excellent job of identifying the enemy.  The enemy is anyone who would subvert or destroy the principles on which this country was founded.  Be it left wing radicals like antifa, right wing radicals like neo-nazis or sympathizers of either who want to use the law to shut down speech because they don't like what's being said.


Say it with me, right now and we can end this ridiculous back and forth.  It is wrong for any group to use violence against any group solely because they find the words or ideals of said group to be offensive, abhorrent or hateful.  Say it and we'll be on the exact same page and we can move on.

Running for political office, support from the white house , and the largest gathering in decades is them getting stronger.

We have the right to believe and say what we want. We dont have the right to threaten people and form torch wielding angry armed mobs calling for ethnic cleansing.

Say it with me now. Angry armed mobs calling for the destruction of our country as we know it and ethnic cleansing whose agenda and beliefs have led to lynchings hangings and wars are enemies of America.

Maybe you dont realize it. Armed groups calling for the destruction of our country isnt free speech or peaceably assembling. It is a threat and not protected by law.

I may not like what you say but i will defend your right to say it. Is not the same as i will defend your right to arm and form groups whose goal is to destroy America and the Constitution.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(08-15-2017, 12:22 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: http://www.dailywire.com/news/19717/7-things-you-need-know-about-antifa-michael-qazvini

Antifa need to know

For what ever reason it wouldn't let me quote the text of your link.  Weird.  Anywho this term "antifa" is new to me.  According to your article "antifa" means anti-fascists.  Am I correct?  If so, am I also correct that your article is claiming that "antifa" is in fact fascists?  Just checking to see if I read this right.

[Belsnickel]

(08-17-2017, 01:42 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: For what ever reason it wouldn't let me quote the text of your link.  Weird.  Anywho this term "antifa" is new to me.  According to your article "antifa" means anti-fascists.  Am I correct?  If so, am I also correct that your article is claiming that "antifa" is in fact fascists?  Just checking to see if I read this right.

That is what we often hear. I guess my big issue with that is the question of what are fascist tactics? Fascism is authoritarianism and nationalism combined. Many of the group identified as Antifa are anarchists. By definition, they cannot be fascists. In truth, some of those that I call American fascists fall into the same category as they could be considered anarchists. Nationalist anarchists, is that possible?

[*PhilHos*]

(08-17-2017, 01:42 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: For what ever reason it wouldn't let me quote the text of your link.  Weird.  Anywho this term "antifa" is new to me.  According to your article "antifa" means anti-fascists.  Am I correct?  If so, am I also correct that your article is claiming that "antifa" is in fact fascists?  Just checking to see if I read this right.

Yes. "antifa" is just an abbreviated form of "anti-facists". I didn't read the article he listed, but it's quite clear from their actions that those that claim to be anti-facist sure do act like facists (i.e. going so far as to violently protest just so a speaker they don't like is unable to deliver a SPEECH).

[*PhilHos*]

(08-17-2017, 02:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That is what we often hear. I guess my big issue with that is the question of what are fascist tactics? Fascism is authoritarianism and nationalism combined. Many of the group identified as Antifa are anarchists. By definition, they cannot be fascists. In truth, some of those that I call American fascists fall into the same category as they could be considered anarchists. Nationalist anarchists, is that possible?

I think the issue is that many that claim to be anti-facist just don't understand what exactly they're against. In other words, they think a particular individual is a neo-Nazi, Nazi's are facist, hence they are anti-facist, when it's more likely they're really just anti-conservative or anti-men's rights. 

I wouldn't necessarily label them as dumb, just misinformed.

[Belsnickel]

(08-17-2017, 02:42 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I think the issue is that many that claim to be anti-facist just don't understand what exactly they're against. In other words, they think a particular individual is a neo-Nazi, Nazi's are facist, hence they are anti-facist, when it's more likely they're really just anti-conservative or anti-men's rights. 

I wouldn't necessarily label them as dumb, just misinformed.

This is one of the reasons why the local protesters this past weekend were consistently being referred to as "anti-racist protesters." That was a definitive and accurate way of describing most of the counter-protesters in the group. I will say, though, that being anti-conservative or anti-men's rights isn't going to be what makes someone turn the corner to the more extreme positions we see with antifa. That is more of a result of extremists v. extremists.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(08-17-2017, 02:39 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes. "antifa" is just an abbreviated form of "anti-facists". I didn't read the article he listed, but it's quite clear from their actions that those that claim to be anti-facist sure do act like facists (i.e. going so far as to violently protest just so a speaker they don't like is unable to deliver a SPEECH).

So are we then saying protesting violently against violent Nazis (white nationals if you prefer a sanitized label) now makes you facists? 

[*PhilHos*]

(08-17-2017, 02:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is one of the reasons why the local protesters this past weekend were consistently being referred to as "anti-racist protesters." That was a definitive and accurate way of describing most of the counter-protesters in the group. I will say, though, that being anti-conservative or anti-men's rights isn't going to be what makes someone turn the corner to the more extreme positions we see with antifa. That is more of a result of extremists v. extremists.

Pretty much. But, I think because it seems as if SOME violent protests are seen as okay or even laudable, that's emboldened others to be violent and of course, violence just begets more violence and you see where we are today.

(08-17-2017, 03:01 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: So are we then saying protesting violently against violent Nazis (white nationals if you prefer a sanitized label) now makes you facists? 

Not necessarily, but don't call yourself an anti-facist while doing the very thing a facist would be doing! Besides I don't think this would be the first time a group of facists opposed other facists.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I see all fringe groups, being nazis, white supremeists, white nationalists, anti fascists amd especially anarchists as very confused individuals and only pick the names for shock value not knowing what they truly are.

Seriously, when you hear an anarchist bust out with "WE HAVE TO SET SOME RULES!" over a bullhorn or load speaker, you can only shake your head.

When you hear someone from the klan bust out with "Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior", you just laugh and point at their stupidity.

When you hear a nazi say they are for small government, how can anyone take them seriously?

You know, it's really stupid that we are arguing over this crap.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I see all fringe groups, being nazis, white supremeists, white nationalists, anti fascists amd especially anarchists as very confused individuals and only pick the names for shock value not knowing what they truly are.

Seriously, when you hear an anarchist bust out with "WE HAVE TO SET SOME RULES!" over a bullhorn or load speaker, you can only shake your head.

When you hear someone from the klan bust out with "Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior", you just laugh and point at their stupidity.

When you hear a nazi say they are for small government, how can anyone take them seriously?

You know, it's really stupid that we are arguing over this crap.

I agree with you 100%.

[BengalHawk62]

(08-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I see all fringe groups, being nazis, white supremeists, white nationalists, anti fascists amd especially anarchists as very confused individuals and only pick the names for shock value not knowing what they truly are.

Seriously, when you hear an anarchist bust out with "WE HAVE TO SET SOME RULES!" over a bullhorn or load speaker, you can only shake your head.

When you hear someone from the klan bust out with "Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior", you just laugh and point at their stupidity.

When you hear a nazi say they are for small government, how can anyone take them seriously?

You know, it's really stupid that we are arguing over this crap.

I just shake my head and mutter, "some people's kids......"

[Millhouse]

(08-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I see all fringe groups, being nazis, white supremeists, white nationalists, anti fascists amd especially anarchists as very confused individuals and only pick the names for shock value not knowing what they truly are.

Seriously, when you hear an anarchist bust out with "WE HAVE TO SET SOME RULES!" over a bullhorn or load speaker, you can only shake your head.

When you hear someone from the klan bust out with "Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior", you just laugh and point at their stupidity.

When you hear a nazi say they are for small government, how can anyone take them seriously?

You know, it's really stupid that we are arguing over this crap.

True. When it comes down to it using rankings of who are the worst of the worst, my top 3 in order are: 1. Nazis 2. KKK 3. Anarchists.  Isis and radical Islam doesn't make it because weirdly enough we rarely ever hear them do protests or whatnot. But they still aren't worse than the Nazis though. 

[Dill]

(08-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I see all fringe groups, being nazis, white supremeists, white nationalists, anti fascists amd especially anarchists as very confused individuals and only pick the names for shock value not knowing what they truly are.

Seriously, when you hear an anarchist bust out with "WE HAVE TO SET SOME RULES!" over a bullhorn or load speaker, you can only shake your head.

When you hear someone from the klan bust out with "Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior", you just laugh and point at their stupidity.

When you hear a nazi say they are for small government, how can anyone take them seriously?

You know, it's really stupid that we are arguing over this crap.

It is important to find out why people are grouping together and reacting this way--why people choose fascism or anti-fascism to exert whatever power they can.

By the way, anarchists aren't necessarily against rules. They are against government.

[Dill]

(08-16-2017, 03:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So you're equating Antifa with the Allies in WW2?  Or is this your clever way of trying to make that comparison ina  deniable way?

I've never equated them to the KKK or Nazis.  I've equated them to what they are, thugs who use violence against people who's political views they disapprove of.

Tell the guy who got hit in the head with a bike lock for no reason.  As much as he's a troll, Milo is no KKK member or Nazi.  So yeah, they absolutely do seem to use violence on people they disagree with.

Yet another exculpatory simplification couched to cast Antifa in a positive light.  Try as you might you and GMDino just can't stop yourself from trying to excuse the violence coming from left leaning groups.  Say it with me, violence is not an acceptable response to speech, even really vile speech.  I'm not sure why this concept is difficult to grasp.

Making a distinction between motivations is not necessarily "excusing" violence. If there is a law against breaking windows and an antifa member and a KKK member each break a window during a demonstration then each should be arrested and get the same penalty.  Whether one is anti-racist and the other is pro-racist should not matter in court. If an Antifa member hits some with a bicycle lock, that would be assault, and anti-fascism would hardly mitigate punishment.

For analytical/explanatory purposes, individual and group motivations certainly are important and do make a difference. You are using the word "disagree" over generally and ambiguously when you refer to Antifa. They don't use violence on EVERYONE they disagree with. The Allies certainly went to war with the Axis powers because they disagreed with them. But the Allies don't record history that way because they think the specific reasons are what counted. They didn't go to war with EVERYONE they disagreed with--just the fascists.  

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(08-17-2017, 04:34 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I see all fringe groups, being nazis, white supremeists, white nationalists, anti fascists amd especially anarchists as very confused individuals and only pick the names for shock value not knowing what they truly are.

Seriously, when you hear an anarchist bust out with "WE HAVE TO SET SOME RULES!" over a bullhorn or load speaker, you can only shake your head.

When you hear someone from the klan bust out with "Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior", you just laugh and point at their stupidity.

When you hear a nazi say they are for small government, how can anyone take them seriously?

You know, it's really stupid that we are arguing over this crap.

There's a super Christian fellow that uses a bullhorn on a street corner around here.  I've always wondered what inspires people to do such things. Dude seems crazy to me.  Watch out for people bullhorns! :andy:

[*PhilHos*]

(08-18-2017, 12:06 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: There's a super Christian fellow that uses a bullhorn on a street corner around here.  I've always wondered what inspires people to do such things. Dude seems crazy to me.  Watch out for people bullhorns! :andy:

Even as a Christian, I'm annoyed by these idiots. I can't imagine that in my lifetime this has EVER been successful in bringing someone to Christianity. And even if it has, that number is probably far over shadowed by the number of those turned OFF by Christianity by these dumbbells.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(08-17-2017, 03:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Not necessarily, but don't call yourself an anti-facist while doing the very thing a facist would be doing! Besides I don't think this would be the first time a group of facists opposed other facists.

I'll be honest, I haven't really invested much into the topic other than what I've read in the newspapers.  And from what I've read there were a bunch of Nazis, white nationalist, and klans members protesting the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee.  Then in turn a bunch of people who are offended by racist assholes protested against them.  To me it's really that simple. 

I'm wondering how people are calling others fascist for standing up to racist assholes.


I believe it was Vlad that was advocating that history shouldn't be sanitized?  And I absolutely agree.


Now if the people that are offended by racist assholes try to enact laws that prohibit the racists assholes free speech then yes I would agree that is wrong.

I absolutely believe in free speech or free press. But be prepared to be met with opposition if you're a racist asshole...that's all I'm really saying.