Arizona Bill Would Let College Students Appeal Grades If They Allege Political Bias

[*Nately120*]

(03-17-2024, 11:59 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: My experience as well.  My philosophy of political science professor was a self proclaimed Marxist.  If you argued against his positions it was known that he'd give you a bad grade.  I got a C in his class and an A in my other four that semester.  In fact, it was my only grade lower than B in any class in my major/minor.  But this bill?  Ugh, opening up a Pandora's box of crap if you ask me.

I had a right wing girlfriend who was in grad school in 2008 or so and she apparently had some sort of legal intervention/threat at the time regarding a professor who supposedly graded her harshly on an assignment because of political bias, so this isn't entirely new even coming from the right wing.  

I personally recall feeling out each professor I had and tailoring my style to best meet what they'd want.  Some professors liked a humorous spin, some hated it, some were more open to me playing devil's advocate and some weren't.  Some wanted you to analyze and formulate opinions based upon sources, some preferred a more "regurgitative" style of citation, etc.

For all we act like college doesn't prepare people for the real world, understanding and giving the people who evaluate you want they want is a life skill that pays off, even if it makes you feel like a putz when you do it. 

[Belsnickel]

(03-17-2024, 01:41 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I had a right wing girlfriend who was in grad school in 2008 or so and she apparently had some sort of legal intervention/threat at the time regarding a professor who supposedly graded her harshly on an assignment because of political bias, so this isn't entirely new even coming from the right wing.  

I personally recall feeling out each professor I had and tailoring my style to best meet what they'd want.  Some professors liked a humorous spin, some hated it, some were more open to me playing devil's advocate and some weren't.  Some wanted you to analyze and formulate opinions based upon sources, some preferred a more "regurgitative" style of citation, etc.

For all we act like college doesn't prepare people for the real world, understanding and giving the people who evaluate you want they want is a life skill that pays off, even if it makes you feel like a putz when you do it. 

Yeah, this is the approach I take. I do not write in a formal way. My writing voice is very playful and much more conversational than typical academic writing. After my first paper in a class I learn how open the professor is to that writing style and how much I need to adjust.

[*Nately120*]

(03-17-2024, 02:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, this is the approach I take. I do not write in a formal way. My writing voice is very playful and much more conversational than typical academic writing. After my first paper in a class I learn how open the professor is to that writing style and how much I need to adjust.

Have you tried crying foul and threatening legal action?

[Rotobeast]

Perhaps this is a task where AI could be quite useful. It could grade accurately, regardless of political slant.

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[SunsetBengal]

(03-17-2024, 09:42 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Perhaps this is a task where AI could be quite useful. It could grade accurately, regardless of political slant.

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You better watch your mouth, you're talking about possibly putting a whole lot of overpaid people out of work.. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-15-2024, 08:10 PM)GMDino Wrote: I still don't think allowing to argue that your grade over political views will lead to anything but trouble.

Agreed, I just don't see how it could realistically be fairly and easily done. Seems like one of those "it may be a problem, but there's no good solution and any bad solution would likely cause bigger problems" issues.

(03-15-2024, 08:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: I was taught by a nun in college who didn't like me either.  It wasn't politics she was just a *****.

[Rotobeast]

(03-17-2024, 10:48 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You better watch your mouth, you're talking about possibly putting a whole lot of overpaid people out of work.. 

They can join the attorneys that raised torches and pitchforks at me for suggesting AI can do their job better.


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[GMDino]

(03-17-2024, 11:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Agreed, I just don't see how it could realistically be fairly and easily done. Seems like one of those "it may be a problem, but there's no good solution and any bad solution would likely cause bigger problems" issues.

 Fortunately I came along after the nuns with rulers age.  In fact I was taught by very few even though I went to Catholic school all my life.  One in grades school that taught both 1st and second grades.  Two or three in high school, and a couple of those were gone before I graduated.  One in college.

[Mike M (the other one)]

The fact that they are implementing this as a law is bad, it should never have come to this.
I only had one Professor that I butted heads with. I withdrew from his class 2x because he kept failing me. Finally on the 3rd one, I went to the Dean of English for help. Got out of there with B that time.

Anyways, i think it's harder to go back when you are older than it is when you are young and inexperienced in the world. Some of those Professors have never worked in the real world so they have this narrow belief that this is how things work and that is not always true.

[Belsnickel]

(03-18-2024, 09:50 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: The fact that they are implementing this as a law is bad, it should never have come to this.
I only had one Professor that I butted heads with. I withdrew from his class 2x because he kept failing me. Finally on the 3rd one, I went to the Dean of English for help. Got out of there with B that time.

Anyways, i think it's harder to go back when you are older than it is when you are young and inexperienced in the world. Some of those Professors have never worked in the real world so they have this narrow belief that this is how things work and that is not always true.

I don't know. I started a second bachelors degree at 30 or 32 (I can't remember) and am now working on a masters at 38. I feel like all of the professors, and students for that matter, I have had saw a value in my lived experience. I can provide a different perspective than is typically brought in the classroom. That being said, I have also lived my entire life around academics, so I may bring a different approach to it than other non-traditional students.

[Dill]

(03-15-2024, 07:37 PM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2024/03/07/arizona-bill-would-let-college-students-appeal-grades-if-they-perceive-political-bias/?sh=76c9db8110b6

Second, who exactly would the Grade Change Department volunteers be? How would they be selected? What qualifications, if any, would they need to have to judge the presence or influence of political bias, let alone the quality of a student’s work in question? Is it not likely that strongly held viewpoints would motivate political partisans to step forward for such duty? That’s exactly the type of person who should not be weighing the merits of alleged political bias.

This reminds me a bit of the kurfuffle over Horowitz' Academic Bill of Rights" and FIRE (Freedom for Individual Rights and Expression) back in 2005-06.
https://www.thefire.org/about-us/mission

He pushed it in various states to get legislators to public universities to adopt it as policy, arguing that "conservatives" were sadly lacking in such schools
and needed a kind of affirmative action to create political instead as well as racial "diversity."  Further, students also had rights to academic freedom of speech and thought. Especially conservative students.  https://studentsforacademicfreedom.org/actions-nationwide/a-campus-movement-is-born/

He came to Pennsylvania with claim that over 100 students had been discriminated against in various institutions by "Marxist" professors who, for example criticized Bush's rush to war in Iraq and ask students to explain Marx without treating his theories as failed.  He moved the legislature to begin examining the question. As they began demanding names and tracking down incidents, the list was quickly reduced to 2 or 3 very questionable, ambiguous stories, and mostly from one private university.  Nothing came of the "real life" examples, but Horowitz did manage to get the PA legislature to push universities to produce statements protecting the academic freedom of students, which he considered a great victory.  https://studentsforacademicfreedom.org/reports/pennsylvanias-academic-freedom-reforms/

I see this as part of a long historical battle over university autonomy which began back in 18th century Germany, where the notion of "Academic freedom" was first elaborated.  It's of a piece with other such moves, like DeSantis' in Florida to control university curricula and teaching from the legislature on the Orban/Hungary model.

That said, I do think that a changing student body is, in some places, challenging traditional notions of academic freedom in harmful ways. But this is not a problem that can be changed through legislation. I think some of its roots are in the K 12 process, as well.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-17-2024, 09:42 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Perhaps this is a task where AI could be quite useful. It could grade accurately, regardless of political slant.

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I've always wondered why with Technology of today, we don't have the entire class being taught from a pre-recorded video and all you need present is a Teachers Aide for Role Call and passing out quizes/test and grading them. Would save loads of money and lower tuition, but put many teachers out of work at the same time.

[Dill]

(03-18-2024, 06:46 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I've always wondered why with Technology of today, we don't have the entire class being taught from a pre-recorded video and all you need present is a Teachers Aide for Role Call and passing out quizes/test and grading them. Would save loads of money and lower tuition, but put many teachers out of work at the same time.

We do have that, where people want it. You tube is full of such. And there is the Great Courses program. The US military has loads of training courses like that.

It was an academic labor/property issue in CA back in the 90s, as certain universities would hire adjunct professors to teach courses, film them, 
then fire them and use the film, along with their syllabi and class notes. No need to rehire them.

What happens if students have questions though? And different students in different classes will have different questions.

It would be the end of Socratic method, for sure.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-18-2024, 07:16 PM)Dill Wrote: We do have that, where people want it. You tube is full of such. And there is the Great Courses program. The US military has loads of training courses like that.

It was an academic labor/property issue in CA back in the 90s, as certain universities would hire adjunct professors to teach courses, film them, 
then fire them and use the film, along with their syllabi and class notes. No need to rehire them.

What happens if students have questions though? And different students in different classes will have different questions.

It would be the end of Socratic method, for sure.

Ask the aide, and just how many classes have you been to where there is always someone asking serious questions? Not very many, most will ask their classmates first if they aren't clear on something. 

I can understand having some as live classes, or maybe have a live Teacher on hand instead of an Aide for some of the more complex classes.

[Dill]

(03-18-2024, 07:29 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Ask the aide, and just how many classes have you been to where there is always someone asking serious questions? Not very many, most will ask their classmates first if they aren't clear on something. 

I can understand having some as live classes, or maybe have a live Teacher on hand instead of an Aide for some of the more complex classes.

I'm a humanities guy, so I was in lots of classes where people asked serious questions, including me. 
Classes often started with "What did you think of the reading?" or "What was X trying to say?" Followed up
by questions like "Does what she says on page 10 agree with what she says on page 44? Why or why not?'
So students were asked to look at texts and social issues from different sides, and to support their take
with textual evidence. I don't see aides being much help unless they were grad students learning to teach 
themselves, and talking to smaller groups.

The sciences are different, at least in the early years; lots of memorizing. People asked questions but it
was mostly like "Could you repeat that?" 

Not disagreeing with you that this could be very appropriate for certain kinds of classes, and work as hybrid for some others.

I also saw video courses abused a lot in the military. "Canned courses" turned out to be mostly about memorization, not thinking.
People just checking boxes. The people administering them also clueless. Promotion points, not knowledge, was the goal.