Arizona communities would 'collapse' without cheap prison labor, Corrections director

[Belsnickel]

(07-19-2022, 01:50 PM)hollodero Wrote: What would be an example of such a law initially designed to put freed slaves in place that is still in effect today?

The remaining of the overt Black Code laws were shot down by SCOTUS in 1972. There are scholars that contend that things such as the sentencing disparities seen for crack and powder cocaine, as SSF mentioned, are modern day continuities of this. There is also evidence from research that shows there are sentencing disparities in most criminal cases where black defendants are sentenced more severely than white defendants, or defendants of other races as well.

Truthfully, though, we could rid ourselves of all of these policies and eliminate any subjectivity in sentencing and the statistics that SSF is talking about wouldn't change much. We have seen a century of this in the US. The black communities in this country have not been given the opportunity to gain intergenerational wealth, to exercise political power. When they did, they were met with violence like the destruction of Black Wall Street. The pressures from the systems in place helped shape the culture that we see now. It created the culture that spawned the gangs we see in inner cities. It has become a perpetual motion machine.

[hollodero]

(07-19-2022, 02:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The remaining of the overt Black Code laws were shot down by SCOTUS in 1972. There are scholars that contend that things such as the sentencing disparities seen for crack and powder cocaine, as SSF mentioned, are modern day continuities of this. There is also evidence from research that shows there are sentencing disparities in most criminal cases where black defendants are sentenced more severely than white defendants, or defendants of other races as well.

I see, and I was always under this impression, that sentencing is racially biased. I'd say that to some part is one of those self-enhancing effects. Blacks have high incarceration rates, hence blacks are more prone to be criminals, hence there's less reason to give this particular black person a harsher sentence.

(07-19-2022, 02:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Truthfully, though, we could rid ourselves of all of these policies and eliminate any subjectivity in sentencing and the statistics that SSF is talking about wouldn't change much.

That's why I asked. I thought the same thing.

(07-19-2022, 02:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: We have seen a century of this in the US. The black communities in this country have not been given the opportunity to gain intergenerational wealth, to exercise political power. When they did, they were met with violence like the destruction of Black Wall Street. The pressures from the systems in place helped shape the culture that we see now. It created the culture that spawned the gangs we see in inner cities. It has become a perpetual motion machine.

I fully get that in comparison to white folks. But isn't that, at least to some extent, also the case for other ethnicities? Many Asians came as railroad workers and the like, not the basis to build intergenerational wealth, many hispanics came as immigrants and had to get by without inherited wealth... how is that factor so particularly effecting black people and the other groups (at least when serving as explanation for incarceration rates) not as much?

[*michaelsean*]

(07-17-2022, 01:09 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I've been against private, for profit, incarceration since it's been a thing.  Incarceration should solely be the purview of the state.  


Which, again, is why private "prisons" need to go.  I do find it interesting that their population is decreasing despite a rise in crime.  I expect that in CA, where so many DA's decide not to do their job, but I am surprised to see that in AZ.

I agree with this.  If you are going to incarcerate people, then you need to be solely responsible for them.  You don't get to hand it off.

As to your later post about crack vs powder, crack caused way more problems in society than powder.  Jesus I think even Fred made that point.

[Belsnickel]

(07-19-2022, 02:18 PM)hollodero Wrote: I fully get that in comparison to white folks. But isn't that, at least to some extent, also the case for other ethnicities? Many Asians came as railroad workers and the like, not the basis to build intergenerational wealth, many hispanics came as immigrants and had to get by without inherited wealth... how is that factor so particularly effecting black people and the other groups (at least when serving as explanation for incarceration rates) not as much?

Asian and Hispanic immigrants did not arrive here as chattel. Were they low-wage laborers? Yes. Were they seen as less-than by the racist thoughts of the day? Also yes. However, they were not deprived of the ability to accumulate wealth and pass it along to their descendants in the same way that our black communities were. They were not targeted by laws to the same extent that our black communities were.

This isn't me saying it didn't happen; it absolutely did. However, they were never targeted to the same degree and at the same consistency as the African American population.

[hollodero]

(07-19-2022, 02:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Asian and Hispanic immigrants did not arrive here as chattel. Were they low-wage laborers? Yes. Were they seen as less-than by the racist thoughts of the day? Also yes. However, they were not deprived of the ability to accumulate wealth and pass it along to their descendants in the same way that our black communities were. They were not targeted by laws to the same extent that our black communities were.

This isn't me saying it didn't happen; it absolutely did. However, they were never targeted to the same degree and at the same consistency as the African American population.

I get the chattel part for sure; I'll have to believe the subsequent explanation. I do, for I know you know what you're talking about. It is, however, not that easy to do so, eg. when regarding that the US once put people of Japanese descent in concentration camps, long after slavery was abolished, or that native americans were almost killed off entirely, or regarding the cliché of severely disadvantaged Puerto Rican immigrants brought to me by flicks like West side story. But as I said, I accept your explanation, as I pretty much always do.

[Belsnickel]

(07-19-2022, 02:58 PM)hollodero Wrote: I get the chattel part for sure; I'll have to believe the subsequent explanation. I do, for I know you know what you're talking about. It is, however, not that easy to do so, eg. when regarding that the US once put people of Japanese descent in concentration camps, long after slavery was abolished, or that native americans were almost killed off entirely, or regarding the cliché of severely disadvantaged Puerto Rican immigrants brought to me by flicks like West side story. But as I said, I accept your explanation, as I pretty much always do.

Obviously, discussing those instances and getting into the nuances far exceeds the capabilities of this message board. Things to keep in mind with this, though:

Japanese internment was a short, albeit horrendous period in history that did effect the Japanese American community. But, because of the narrow focus on the Japanese and the shortened timeframe in comparison, the systemic damage was not the same. As for Asian communities in general, they have never been a large enough portion of the population to be considered as much of a threat to the established political systems for them to be targeted like the black communities.

Our shitty treatment of the First Nations was quite truthfully worse than that of the Africans brought here. That is not something I will deny, nor will I deny our continued shitty treatment of them. Most people have no idea of the absolutely atrocious conditions they live in on reservations to this day. The one redeeming part for reservation life, however, is self-governance. Their under-representation in our criminal justice system is due in large part to the self-governance of reservations and their ability to take care of their own. I know quite a few reservation natives and have heard how this system tends to work.

And lastly, the Puerto Ricans. Well, I am not going to deny that situation, either. After all, I am one often on here talking about their status as second-class citizens, at best, because of their lack of representation in our government. Honestly, we don't even need to look at the Puerto Ricans living on the mainland to see the oppression that our systems places upon them. But here again, because they were always coming here as paid laborers and not as chattel, the effects are not the same. There are laws put in place that target them and other Hispanic communities in places where they are present. I see it here in some of the zoning ordinances and whatnot. They also were not a presence during the heyday of these laws. They weren't the threat to the establishment at that time. So we see more instances of it, now.

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-19-2022, 11:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Like most things the roots of this go way back.  Consider that the people who founded this nation were considered religious extremists in their home countries.  They had very strict views on crimes and their punishments.  This has never gone away and likely won't any time soon.  Because of this a prisoner in the US will generally serve a much longer sentence than their European counterpart.  A very important question regarding the criminal justice system is why the black population accounts for such a large percentage of overall crime.  I know people wince when they hear that, but the numbers are there and they are frighteningly consistent.  Use the UCR for literally any year, here is 2019 (Also, note that for "white" the initial number includes Hispanics, who are often listed not as a race but as an ethnicity);

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-43


This, of course, leads us to the discussion of why this is the case. Systemic racism is certainly part of the issue, as is poverty and lack of opportunity.  But it cannot explain all of it, because if those were the driving factors then you would see similar disproportions for Hispanics, who are only slightly over represented, and Native Americans, who are also over represented, but nothing close to the same degree.  And Asians are very much under represented.  There are so many factors that even attempting to discuss all of them would be exhausting under this format.  But, if this problem could be solved, or even mitigated significantly, it would result in a very large drop in overall crime rate.  As inner city gangs account for the vast majority of "mass shootings" this would also make an enormous dent in that issue as well.

BTW, you're one of the people here I'd even have this discussion with.  Many would use this as an opportunity to hurl predictable accusations of racism, which, while predictable, gets old real fast.

One of the reasons I feel (certainly not the only one) is just location/residence. A large percentage of blacks live in and close around bigger cities. There's dozens and dozens even hundreds of police in and around their living areas and hangouts. They're on the streets and visible.

There's a good portion of the white criminal element/drug dealers and so on who live in the more rural areas, smaller cities, even up a holler. They're out of sight and out of mind. They can easily disappear into the outback. I know even in my little town I can take you to a half dozen known drug houses and very little is done. 

This is by far not the only reason. Racism is certainly much higher on the list of problems. But I do feel it's a factor. It's just easier to get away with it when you're not under the bright lights with a cop on every corner.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-19-2022, 01:48 PM)hollodero Wrote: Again, not to be controversial, but this seems to be in apparent contradiction to your stance that the country is too soft on criminals. That doesn't sound so soft.

It's not as that isn't my position.  The soft on crime DA's are largely concentrated in large cities with deep blue voting patterns.  Also, the "progressive" DA is a fairly recent thing, I think the POS Krasner in Philly was the first in 2017 and the rest came around two ore more years later.  Outside of these areas it's pretty much business as usual.

Quote:Also, while this might explain a difference towards other western countries, the US not only beats out Europe, but every country in the world. Including the real authoritarian ones with draconian sentences for disobedience or disagreeing with leadership etc.

A couple of points to that.  One, we have a functioning legal system that isn't horribly corrupt.  Two, find me a country like that where you get accurate numbers and that don't just disappear people on the regular.  The latter happens in Mexico all the damned time, and Mexico is in much better shape than a fair number of the countries that would fit your description.

Quote:I am pretty certain these are the major factors, overall. I understand it's not a wholesome explanation though. But I'd guess especially fighting powerty effectively would go a long way.
(Btw. I'd rather trust democrats over republicans on that one, but that's a sidenote)

I can understand that, given recent history.  

Quote:Ah well. As for Hispanics, I guess many of them are immigrants, more than black people for sure. Who are often less prone to crime than natural born citizens, that's the case here too. I guess it's because you'd risk not only sentencing, but being thrown out of the country. Also, those who immigrate, I'd wager, are usually not the rapists and murdereres Trump sees in them, that think raping and murdering is so much more fun in the US than in their home country. They rather are ambitious people that want to create something through hard work and not so much through crime.

You don't have to tell me, I've lived in Southern California most of my life.  It's usually their kids that get mixed up in criminal activity, but that has been the case for every immigrant group in the US throughout history.

Quote:Asians (and maybe also hispanics and native americans) possibly are faced with a little less prejudice as well, at least when it comes to crime. My impression would be that the stereotypical criminal for many people rather is a black person than an Asian person. So it might be that systemic racism hits blacks harder than the other groups.

They've been just as subject to racism as any other group.  What they do well is work their ass off and keep it in the family, so to speak.  Initial Asian immigrants tend to keep to themselves and their fellow immigrants.  Their kids are really the ones that start branching out.

Quote:Of course I could think of other explanations, but I usually have to delete comments of mine touching this hot iron. I come across as ignorant and slightly racist even to myself - and others - when talking about my thoughts about that. But I will say (and leave it this time) that I think the grim picture painted about the black experience in the US plays a part in it, a picture that is dystopian, often declaring it pretty much pointless to even try to achieve something as a poor black person. The system is so rigged against you and gives you no chance, that's what large parts of the media and popular culture seem to hammer home time and again, employers will harbor prejudice against you, police will beat you up, the man will hold you down in so many different ways. If I were to grow up with the constant affirmation that my race is a disadvantage I - not being a genius or particularly gifted - most likely can never overcome, I'd probably be quite hopeless too and possibly see no other way than to be part of a gang or selling drugs or going the unlawful way in some other manner.

And it apparently starts at a young age, as your figure shows. There might be a neglection factor, which is to be expected when so many adults are already in prison instead of home with their children. A sentiment that might put me in a position contrary to yours, as in I'd possibly advocate being somewhat soft on crime for this reason alone. A parent in prison puts the child on a path. In that and possibly other senses, high incarceration rates amongst a certain community imho have a self-enhancing effect.

I've mentioned this before, but I really wish I had the link to the study we had in one of trainings that showed the number one predictor of a child entering the criminal justice system, other than being male, was having no father in the home, or one largely absent. I can't tell you how many kids I've arrested that I also had arrested their father in the past.  Really if you boil it down, we are all in agreement on the vast majority of this, we being myself, Bel and you.  This is a problem that can be solved, but to solve it we have to acknowledge the entire picture, not just what is expedient, obvious or easy.  Hard questions need to be asked, and answered, from all parties involved, otherwise we'll just keep spinning our wheels on this issue.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-19-2022, 03:24 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Our shitty treatment of the First Nations was quite truthfully worse than that of the Africans brought here. That is not something I will deny, nor will I deny our continued shitty treatment of them. Most people have no idea of the absolutely atrocious conditions they live in on reservations to this day. The one redeeming part for reservation life, however, is self-governance. Their under-representation in our criminal justice system is due in large part to the self-governance of reservations and their ability to take care of their own. I know quite a few reservation natives and have heard how this system tends to work.

And here is where the racism is the only factor issue really falls apart.  Noe one has gotten the shit end of the stick in this country more than the native populations.  You are correct that the ability to self govern and maintain a community identity has certainly helped, but even so that does not explain why they are nowhere near as overrepresented as the black community.  As we all agree, it's a toxic combination of numerous reasons.


I will add that it's a pleasure to be able to discuss this like adults without having to worry about racism accusations for daring to ask uncomfortable questions.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-19-2022, 02:25 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I agree with this.  If you are going to incarcerate people, then you need to be solely responsible for them.  You don't get to hand it off.

As to your later post about crack vs powder, crack caused way more problems in society than powder.  Jesus I think even Fred made that point.

Not really, when you consider that you can't make crack without powdered cocaine in the first place.  It was certainly associated with more street level violence, which is always going to attract more attention and ire.

(07-19-2022, 03:32 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: One of the reasons I feel (certainly not the only one) is just location/residence. A large percentage of blacks live in and close around bigger cities. There's dozens and dozens even hundreds of police in and around their living areas and hangouts. They're on the streets and visible.

There's a good portion of the white criminal element/drug dealers and so on who live in the more rural areas, smaller cities, even up a holler. They're out of sight and out of mind. They can easily disappear into the outback. I know even in my little town I can take you to a half dozen known drug houses and very little is done. 

This is by far not the only reason. Racism is certainly much higher on the list of problems. But I do feel it's a factor. It's just easier to get away with it when you're not under the bright lights with a cop on every corner.

There's definitely some truth to this.  Being in a high crime area means you are more likely to be caught for anything you do.  Engaging in criminal conduct is not exactly unknown for young adolescent boys of any ethnicity, but if you're more likely to get caught for this youthful "exuberance" then you're more likely to enter the system.  And once you're in the system it's much easier to stay in it than to get in it initially.  There have been some advances in this area with diversion programs, but IMO they start them at too late an age, around 12-13.  You need to get to the high risk kids much earlier than that, I'm talking second or third grade.  Trust when I tell you that teachers can easily identify their high risk kids at that age.  

[treee]

(07-19-2022, 05:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I will add that it's a pleasure to be able to discuss this like adults without having to worry about racism accusations for daring to ask uncomfortable questions.

Often people who bring up black crime statistics on the internet are being racist and have racist motivations. And frankly someone could interpret your insistence that there is some other aspect besides systematic racism for black crimes rates as a dog whistle unless you explain your perspective further. 

I assume you're going to attempt to argue it as a cultural issue but that argument is demarked by how monumental the MSM has been over the course of history in shaping the public consciousness.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-19-2022, 05:54 PM)treee Wrote: Often people who bring up black crime statistics on the internet are being racist and have racist motivations. And frankly someone could interpret your insistence that there is some other aspect besides systematic racism for black crimes rates as a dog whistle unless you explain your perspective further. 

I assume you're going to attempt to argue it as a cultural issue but that argument is demarked by how monumental the MSM has been over the course of history in shaping the public consciousness.

You assume incorrectly.  As I've stated, numerous time in this very thread, there are many reasons for this extreme discrepancy, racism definitely being one of them.  But I do appreciate your illustrating exactly why this issue will never begin to be resolved, because if you dare discuss it you get responses like this that presume ill intent despite having no evidence on which to base this conclusion.

[treee]

(07-19-2022, 06:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You assume incorrectly.  As I've stated, numerous time in this very thread, there are many reasons for this extreme discrepancy, racism definitely being one of them.  But I do appreciate your illustrating exactly why this issue will never begin to be resolved, because if you dare discuss it you get responses like this that presume ill intent despite having no evidence on which to base this conclusion.

I'm telling you how your post can be perceived and the reason for it. I'm asking you to expand your argument. I understood your position to be that there is additional factors contributing to black crime rate other than the ripple effects from systematic racism. If I misunderstood your assertion then that's all you have to say. I'm just looking for clarification in your stance.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-19-2022, 07:02 PM)treee Wrote: I'm telling you how your post can be perceived and the reason for it. I'm asking you to expand your argument. I understood your position to be that there is additional factors contributing to black crime rate other than the ripple effects from systematic racism. If I misunderstood your assertion then that's all you have to say. I'm just looking for clarification in your stance.

There's literally several posts explaining some of my thoughts on that.  Also, as I already said, there are far too many factors to even begin to fully discuss this here a sentiment echoed by Bel shortly thereafter.  I am left wondering why you felt to need to inquire as to my, already stated, reasoning, but not Bel or Hollo?

[*michaelsean*]

(07-19-2022, 05:33 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not really, when you consider that you can't make crack without powdered cocaine in the first place.  It was certainly associated with more street level violence, which is always going to attract more attention and ire.


There's definitely some truth to this.  Being in a high crime area means you are more likely to be caught for anything you do.  Engaging in criminal conduct is not exactly unknown for young adolescent boys of any ethnicity, but if you're more likely to get caught for this youthful "exuberance" then you're more likely to enter the system.  And once you're in the system it's much easier to stay in it than to get in it initially.  There have been some advances in this area with diversion programs, but IMO they start them at too late an age, around 12-13.  You need to get to the high risk kids much earlier than that, I'm talking second or third grade.  Trust when I tell you that teachers can easily identify their high risk kids at that age.  

It was also a much bigger epidemic than powder. Highly addictive and cheap, and it was destroying thousands of families. Maybe comparing it to meth and sentencing and races would be more accurate.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Hollo, here's an interesting series of essays/opinion pieces by people on this subject of mass incarceration and the "progressive DA" movement.

https://outsidevoices.substack.com/p/crime-incarceration-and-reform-prosecutors

[hollodero]

(07-20-2022, 02:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hollo, here's an interesting series of essays/opinion pieces by people on this subject of mass incarceration and the "progressive DA" movement.

https://outsidevoices.substack.com/p/crime-incarceration-and-reform-prosecutors

Thanks.

This will take a while.