Austria to close seven mosques

[SunsetBengal]

(06-08-2018, 11:25 AM)Au165 Wrote: So then they aren't doing anything blatant enough to prosecute, but it's vague enough to close places of worship? Seems like a good argument for them to make around a war on their religion. Just because it's easier this way doesn't necessarily make it right, or even a good idea.

Could you imagine if the U.S. Government rolled in and shut down all the Catholic churches because enough of them had pedophiles that it's easier to just shut them all down?

That is part of why this story is interesting, because their laws and policies are different than what we are used to in the States.  Having an Austrian citizen on the board, such as Hollodero, gives the opportunity to get a fuller understanding of how things work in his country.

[Millhouse]

(06-08-2018, 11:25 AM)Au165 Wrote: So then they aren't doing anything blatant enough to prosecute, but it's vague enough to close places of worship? Seems like a good argument for them to make around a war on their religion. Just because it's easier this way doesn't necessarily make it right, or even a good idea.

Could you imagine if the U.S. Government rolled in and shut down all the Catholic churches because enough of them had pedophiles that it's easier to just shut them all down?

Thing is though is it a place of just worship, or is it a front? If it is deemed a front, then it should be shut down Like some pizza shop or a restaurant in New York City decades ago that was actually a front for mafia.

[hollodero]

(06-08-2018, 11:17 AM)Au165 Wrote: So you can't fear what may happen (as you told me earlier) if you do this and create terrorists, but you can fear that inaction may create terrorists? It's an interesting example of perspective because you can easily say both decisions are based on fear, as are most decisions in life. 

Hm. I don't quite know. I'm not in fear of creating terrorists, I'm in fear of creating parallel societies, a nucleus of people not interacting with the state and not respecting the laws of the land. A terror attack just being the most obvious - and most unlikely - outcome resulting from that.
But sure, it's mainly about an act of symbolism, the direct results won't be quite that spectacular successes. But what do you do if a foreign state opens a recruitment camp for extremists in your country. Which that one mosque I'm talking about certainly was.
And that's not so much about religion for me, it's rather like Cuba opening a recruitment camp for dedicated anti-American Castro followers within US borders. What would you do with these places?

(06-08-2018, 11:17 AM)Au165 Wrote: Also if these places were such blatant locations of extremist indoctrination, why couldn't you walk in and arrest those people doing it? It almost seems your contradictory in that they are disguised, but not so well that you can easily point to the mosques and close them in a large sweeping action.

Arrests are a tough call. You'd have lengthy court actions, a tough task regarding proof, creating some severe questions about free speech and such, create martyrs, further polarize people and probably don't solve any problem. Taking the illegal funding approach is way safer.

[Au165]

(06-08-2018, 11:34 AM)hollodero Wrote: Hm. I don't quite know. I'm not in fear of creating terrorists, I'm in fear of creating parallel societies, a nucleus of people not interacting with the state and not respecting the laws of the land. A terror attack just being the most obvious - and most unlikely - outcome resulting from that.
But sure, it's mainly about an act of symbolism, the direct results won't be quite that spectacular successes. But what do you do if a foreign state opens a recruitment camp for extremists in your country. Which that one mosque I'm talking about certainly was.
And that's not so much about religion for me, it's rather like Cuba opening a recruitment camp for dedicated anti-American Castro followers within US borders. What would you do with these places?



Arrests are a tough call. You'd have lengthy court actions, a tough task regarding proof, creating some severe questions about free speech and such, create martyrs, further polarize people and probably don't solve any problem. Taking the illegal funding approach is way safer.

The funding thing is interesting, so only Muslim religious entities can't be funded from out of country funds? 

[Millhouse]

(06-08-2018, 11:32 AM)Au165 Wrote: What about one with rampant sexual assaults against minors? This church also protected those sexual predators by not reporting them and even went so far as to move them across country to hide them.

Seems like a pretty good candidate to me for shutting them all down since trying to find everyone in this organization involved would be really difficult.

The scenario I brought up is the closest thing to a Mosque being a front tied to radical Islam. Your scenario is not the same because Catholic churches were not a front for pedophilia. And no, I am not a fan of the Catholic Church nor am I trying to defend their cover-ups on this issue either.

[hollodero]

(06-08-2018, 11:37 AM)Au165 Wrote: The funding thing is interesting, so only Muslim religious entities can't be funded from out of country funds? 

It sure was a law with a specific aim. Honestly, I don't know exactly, I just assume no one would even bother looking at the funding of synagogues or Buddhist temples, since we have no issue with those guys.

But again, Erdogan uses a lot of funds to build outposts (for politics rather than religion) all over western Europe and I'm in favour of using laws, even tricky ones, to oppose that.

[Au165]

(06-08-2018, 11:39 AM)Millhouse Wrote: The scenario I brought up is the closest thing to a Mosque being a front tied to radical Islam. Your scenario is not the same because Catholic churches were not a front for pedophilia. And no, I am not a fan of the Catholic Church nor am I trying to defend their cover-ups on this issue either.

If they were such obvious fronts arrests would be made as well. Lack of arrests tied to this hurts any argument that there was a legitimate threat rather than a perceived one. 

[Millhouse]

(06-08-2018, 11:52 AM)Au165 Wrote: If they were such obvious fronts arrests would be made as well. Lack of arrests tied to this hurts any argument that there was a legitimate threat rather than a perceived one. 

Well over here arrests would have to be made first, then it would be shut down. Over there since they are closer to radical Islam coming from the Middle East, they are just taking a better safe than sorry approach based on how they were tracking money. It doesnt bother me what they do or dont do though. But if they try to close all the mosques down, then that would be bothersome.

[hollodero]

(06-08-2018, 12:04 PM)Millhouse Wrote: But if they try to close all the mosques down, then that would be bothersome.

That's still not even close to happening. But as I said, most of these shutdowns are questionable to me, that Turkish one though is not. That there are no arrests doesn't mean the threat is just percieved, we have quite a good understanding how Erdogan uses these places to do his political bidding within the large Turkish immigrant group here. They do get radicalized politically there, also very much against the host country. You have a legal tool to counteract, you should probably use it. This is about western values, including being tolerant of other faiths and beliefs. The Grey Wolves most certainly are not that.

[Au165]

(06-08-2018, 12:04 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Well over here arrests would have to be made first, then it would be shut down. Over there since they are closer to radical Islam coming from the Middle East, they are just taking a better safe than sorry approach based on how they were tracking money. It doesnt bother me what they do or dont do though. But if they try to close all the mosques down, then that would be bothersome.

It kind of bothers me as it is additional fuel for radicalization that will affect others as those terrorists won't get deployed only to Austria. Sure, they can spin anything to be a recruitment tool, but this one is easy enough to spin that a child could recruit with it. 

[SunsetBengal]

(06-08-2018, 12:12 PM)Au165 Wrote: It kind of bothers me as it is additional fuel for radicalization that will affect others as those terrorists won't get deployed only to Austria. Sure, they can spin anything to be a recruitment tool, but this one is easy enough to spin that a child could recruit with it. 

So, what is the answer?  Allow them to continue about their business, right under the government's nose, or get rid of the known infected mosques in one fell swoop?

[Au165]

(06-08-2018, 12:15 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, what is the answer?  Allow them to continue about their business, right under the government's nose, or get rid of the known infected mosques in one fell swoop?

Arrests. Catch them in the act of indoctrination through infiltrating the group. Germany has done this for years and it is a much better approach to keep the religious side of this separated as much as possible.

[SunsetBengal]

Here's a much larger article on the story.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5820445/Austrias-right-wing-government-plans-shut-mosques-expel-imams.html

[BmorePat87]

(06-08-2018, 11:22 AM)hollodero Wrote: It's more or less a given here as well, sadly the right-wing populists are trying to change that.

That being said, again that one turkish mosque is run by the Grey Wolves, which is these guys. To be more precise, it is run by a splinter group who thought the Grey Wolves are too moderate. This doesn't fall within the realms of constitutional protection and I'm happy that one mosque is closed down. That's political Islam in its most radical showing.

As for the overstep... there are certain laws in place regarding the funding. If funding comes from abroad, we have the legal tools to close a mosque down. And I don't consider that an attack on religious freedom, especially when it's really not so much about theology, but about recruitment of radical Erdogan followers.

Right wing Nazi loving militias are allowed to exist in the US. We draw the line at crime, calling for violence, and terrorism.

So to me, until it comes to that, it seems like an infringement. 

[BmorePat87]

(06-08-2018, 11:22 AM)Millhouse Wrote: In a way though they are reaching out to the Muslim girls by saying if you are going to attend our schools, we dont want you to be constricted by some sect in your religion so you can mix right in with the rest of the girls. Otherwise these girls will grow up thinking that wearing a head scarf out in public is what a woman should do because the men said so in some old book.

I know, a bit over the top there, but I just never have agreed with women wearing and looking a certain way just because of their religion when the men dont have the same rules to follow. In some Muslim countries this taken to the extreme by women only allowed to show their eyes in public. Such a shame. My grandma who passed many years ago was in a Kentucky Southern Baptist kinda church. All the women members in the church never cut their hair so it was usually in a big bun, never wore pants, etc. Nicest people on the planet and when they all got together to make big church dinners up the food was amazing. But I just never agreed with how they had to look even back when I was a kid. It just seemed un-American to me so to speak back then.

But you're not actually teaching of that with a ban. You're teaching them that their religious leaders claims that their ways are under attack are then vindicated. 

You need the actual outreach component where you explain to them the benefits of a free and open society to them and you find ways to make them understand that they're not going to be persecuted for their religion. Make them want to remove the hijab if they feel like they need to.

[hollodero]

(06-08-2018, 12:49 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Right wing Nazi loving militias are allowed to exist in the US. We draw the line at crime, calling for violence, and terrorism.

So to me, until it comes to that, it seems like an infringement. 

I understand. Technically, we have the law, we execute the law, we do have a supreme court that's not shy at all to get involved and shut laws down - and did not, so overall that's not an infringement to me. We laid out the rules, the rules were broken, there are consequences.
Personally, I can get behind opposing inofficial foreign strongholds within one's own borders. And to have laws against foreign funding of places where unconstitutional ideas are spread.

But sure, we're not like the US here, and chances are we just can't afford to be. We're a small country with a large turkish minority that increasingly opposes western values, including tolerance and such. With how much tolerance can you treat the intolerant until this value gets corrupted in a small society.

I know Americans see that differently. But infringement is a strong word. We just use a slightly different code of law.

[BmorePat87]

(06-08-2018, 01:02 PM)hollodero Wrote: I understand. Technically, we have the law, we execute the law, we do have a supreme court that's not shy at all to get involved and shut laws down - and did not, so overall that's not an infringement to me. We laid out the rules, the rules were broken, there are consequences.
Personally, I can get behind opposing inofficial foreign strongholds within one's own borders. And to have laws against foreign funding of places where unconstitutional ideas are spread.

But sure, we're not like the US here, and chances are we just can't afford to be. We're a small country with a large turkish minority that increasingly opposes western values, including tolerance and such. With how much tolerance can you treat the intolerant until this value gets corrupted in a small society.

I know Americans see that differently. But infringement is a strong word. We just use a slightly different code of law.

And that's why I prefaced my first post with "As an American". I think allowing radicals, especially those who are targeting youths, to see themselves as victims is a terrible strategy, but Austria is not the US. 

[hollodero]

(06-08-2018, 01:06 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: And that's why I prefaced my first post with "As an American". I think allowing radicals, especially those who are targeting youths, to see themselves as victims is a terrible strategy, but Austria is not the US. 

I get your thought. I'm way more torn on that decision than it might appear. There's a counter-argument to your point that by tolerating intolerance, you're normalizing it, which might appear as approval to many. Setting a signal that this is not a desireable development within a country that in general is good to people and immigrants can have a positive effect as well. I really dont know.

[Millhouse]

(06-08-2018, 12:11 PM)hollodero Wrote: That's still not even close to happening. But as I said, most of these shutdowns are questionable to me, that Turkish one though is not. That there are no arrests doesn't mean the threat is just percieved, we have quite a good understanding how Erdogan uses these places to do his political bidding within the large Turkish immigrant group here. They do get radicalized politically there, also very much against the host country. You have a legal tool to counteract, you should probably use it. This is about western values, including being tolerant of other faiths and beliefs. The Grey Wolves most certainly are not that.

Oh I know thats not happening, I was just saying that for discussion.

And I honestly didnt know who the Grey Wolves are until I was just reading up the basics on them. Yeah, they have no place at all in our culture in Europe and over here.

[hollodero]

(06-08-2018, 01:21 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Oh I know thats not happening, I was just saying that for discussion.

I figured... I still wanted to point out that we're still a democratic nation of laws :)

(06-08-2018, 01:21 PM)Millhouse Wrote: And I honestly didnt know who the Grey Wolves are until I was just reading up the basics on them. Yeah, they have no place at all in our culture in Europe and over here.

I wouldn't expect you to know about them. And as I said, that one "mosque", and I really have to use the quotes there, is run by a group that thinks the Grey Wolves are too moderate.