Bad Boys II

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2018, 12:48 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While I get what you're saying here, it is my understanding based on the work of Chris Uggen, that while people of color are more likely to be searched when pulled over for a traffic stop, white people are more likely to have illegal items in their possession. What this points to is that there may (I'm saying may because assigning motive is very difficult with these sorts of things) be something more at play than basing it more on suspicious activity and race may play a greater role than many believe, including the officers themselves.

We have been led to believe for a long time that people of color, black men specifically, are more likely to be criminals. They are arrested, charged, and incarcerated at higher rates for longer sentences than other demographic groups. But the ethnographic data collected points to them not committing crimes at a rate any higher than white men, for instance.

This is one of the issues I have with the idea of "community policing" or other programs founded on the broken windows principles. There is a level of subjectivity there that is very easy to abuse and cause inequity in our application of the criminal justice system. I just wish we had a good way to really fix it, because that is difficult. As you say, LEOs are human beings and they will have the same flaws as anyone else. Same for prosecutors and judges. I don't harbor the notion that we will ever solve this issue 100%, I just wish we could have productive conversations about it.

The Census Bureau issues a crime report based on polling called the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS).  So it is not based on arrest records influenced by police bias.  It shows that blacks are more likely to commit crimes against people and/or property. 

But studies of drug use show that pretty much the same percentage of white people and black people use illegal drugs.  So it is hard to explain why blacks are arrested and sentenced longer (even taking into account criminal history) than blacks. 

There is clearly a bias in the system all the way from police through prosecutors, judges, and even jurors.  And most of it is based on the idea that blacks and other minorities are more likely to be criminals.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-01-2018, 12:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actual police disagree with you

Off Duty black NYP officers claim to be targets of racial profiling...http://gawker.com/nypd-racial-profiling-captures-off-duty-black-cops-1674627902

"A" police officer, is not police, plural.

Quote:St. Louis Police chief fired for ordering officers to concentrate on arresting blacks at a mall....http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/st-louis-county-police-lieutenant-who-allegedly-targeted-blacks-is/article_691eb995-7247-5c0b-a48b-e7048c777b37.html

Some context would help your argument here. Such as, why did he make the order?  I'm not saying the order was right, but was there a reason for making it other than assuming the chief doesn't like black people?

Quote:There are many studies showing that police racially profile.  The most famous is the NYC "stop and frisk" policy where only 9% of the stops involved white people and 98% of the stops found no contraband.  So cop were stopping innocent people for no reason and 91% of them were minorities.

In a study of 313 random traffic stops in Cincinnati in '03-'04 it was found that "Blacks were between three and five times more likely to (a) be asked if they were carrying drugs or weapons, (b) be asked to leave the vehicle, © be searched, (d) have a passenger searched, and (e) have the vehicle physically searched in a study conducted. .  https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1460-2466.2008.00398.x

We know what happened, that doesn't tell us why it happened.  Are there reasons for the higher rate of these instances that aren't based on race?  Simply saying it happens to black people more frequently does not automatically mean it happens because they are black.

Quote:A study from Richmond Virginia in 2001 found that blacks were stopped at a disproportionate rate based on their percentage of population even though whites were more likely to be ticketed or arrested when stopped. http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1098611101004001001

Traffic stops are initiated for a reason.  Many of those reasons are going to be more prevelant for less economically advantaged people, e.g. broken taillight, expired tags, cracked windshield.  Also, from your own link.

"Minority citizens in general, and African Americans in particular, were disproportionately stopped compared with their percentage in the driving-eligible population. However, they were searched no more frequently than Whites; in fact, Whites were significantly more likely than minorities to be the subjects of consent searches. Compared with Whites, and after controlling for variables, minority drivers were more likely to be warned, whereas Whites were more likely to be ticketed or arrested."

EDIT: I missed this bit from the end;

"Examining officer race as a predictor revealed White officers were no more likely than minority officers to stop, search, or arrest minority drivers."

I appreciate your helping me prove my point.

Quote:A 2009 study of traffic stops in West Virginia showed that minorities were 1.5 times more likely ot be stopped and 2.5 times more likely to have their vehicles searched than white people despite the fact that white people were MORE LIKELY to have contraband in their possession.

Odd, as the study above found the exact opposite.  What are to conclude from these findings?

Quote:The list goes on and on.  Police think minorities are more likely to be criminals, so they concentrate more on minorities. 

Speaking in such broad generalities could be perceived as profiling, sir.

Quote:But this turns out to be a self fulfilling prophesy.  Since they concentrate more on minorities they en dup arresting more minorities.

Or not, per your own sources.

(06-01-2018, 12:48 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While I get what you're saying here, it is my understanding based on the work of Chris Uggen, that while people of color are more likely to be searched when pulled over for a traffic stop, white people are more likely to have illegal items in their possession. What this points to is that there may (I'm saying may because assigning motive is very difficult with these sorts of things) be something more at play than basing it more on suspicious activity and race may play a greater role than many believe, including the officers themselves.

Possibly.  However such a subjective conclusion would be impossible to prove.

Quote:We have been led to believe for a long time that people of color, black men specifically, are more likely to be criminals. They are arrested, charged, and incarcerated at higher rates for longer sentences than other demographic groups. But the ethnographic data collected points to them not committing crimes at a rate any higher than white men, for instance.

Fred addresses this later and I'll go into more detail in my response to him, but this is, sadly, not the case.

Quote:This is one of the issues I have with the idea of "community policing" or other programs founded on the broken windows principles. There is a level of subjectivity there that is very easy to abuse and cause inequity in our application of the criminal justice system. I just wish we had a good way to really fix it, because that is difficult. As you say, LEOs are human beings and they will have the same flaws as anyone else. Same for prosecutors and judges. I don't harbor the notion that we will ever solve this issue 100%, I just wish we could have productive conversations about it.

You are correct on this, focusing on obvious crime, such as graffiti, mans LEO's will come into contact with residents of poorer neighborhoods more often.  As these areas skew minority this does mean they will be contacted at higher rates.

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2018, 01:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: "A" police officer, is not police, plural.

Reuters interviewed 25 African American male officers on the NYPD, 15 of whom are retired and 10 of whom are still serving. All but one said that, when off duty and out of uniform, they had been victims of racial profiling, which refers to using race or ethnicity as grounds for suspecting someone of having committed a crime

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-01-2018, 01:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Census Bureau issues a crime report based on polling called the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS).  So it is not based on arrest records influenced by police bias.  It shows that blacks are more likely to commit crimes against people and/or property.

Yes, hard, empirical data proves this.  While there are certainly factors many other factors that come into play, this cannot be disputed. 

Quote:But studies of drug use show that pretty much the same percentage of white people and black people use illegal drugs.  So it is hard to explain why blacks are arrested and sentenced longer (even taking into account criminal history) than blacks. 

It's actually 100% easy to explain and I have done so on several occasions.  Why do rich and middle class drug users not encounter the police at the same level as poor drug users?  A little logic will start you down the correct path.  Failing that, you can search my post history for a more detailed description of why this is the case.

Quote:There is clearly a bias in the system all the way from police through prosecutors, judges, and even jurors.  And most of it is based on the idea that blacks and other minorities are more likely to be criminals.

Actually, Hispanics commit crime, and are incarcerated, at a proportional rate to their population.  Indians and Asians commit crime and are incarcerated at a rate far below their proportion of the population.  A rather large flaw in your arguments about the treatment of "minorities".

Also, perhaps not surprisingly, you failed to answer my question, so I'll reiterate.

Let me ask you something in this vein.  Between a group of Hispanic adult women and a group of white teenage boys, who would first attract the attention of law enforcement?

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2018, 01:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Some context would help your argument here. Such as, why did he make the order?  I'm not saying the order was right, but was there a reason for making it other than assuming the chief doesn't like black people?

The "context" is that he was investigated and fired over it.  More than 4 (some claim as many as 9) officers confirmed the comments.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-01-2018, 01:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The "context" is that he was investigated and fired over it.  More than 4 (some claim as many as 9) officers confirmed the comments.

Apparently you don't know what "context" means or actually read my question.  I'll leave you to responding to one sentence at a time of a multi-paragraph post.

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2018, 01:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Why do rich and middle class drug users not encounter the police at the same level as poor drug users? 

Because police concentrate on minorities.

See the numbers from the NYPD stop and frisk policy.

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2018, 01:30 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Apparently you don't know what "context" means or actually read my question. 

If you want to defend the guy then find something to defend the guy.  Why the hell would I do that for you?

If there was any "context" to excuse his actions then why would he be fired?

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2018, 01:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Let me ask you something in this vein.  Between a group of Hispanic adult women and a group of white teenage boys, who would first attract the attention of law enforcement?

Whichever group appeared to be acting in a suspicious manner.

[Belsnickel]

(06-01-2018, 01:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because police concentrate on minorities.

See the numbers from the NYPD stop and frisk policy.

Stop and frisk is a product of broken windows policing. What SSF is talking about is how middle and upper class drug dealers tend to handle their business behind closed doors. The drug deals that happen out in the open, as those in lower class neighborhoods are at a higher rate, are easier to bust.

[Belsnickel]

(06-01-2018, 01:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Census Bureau issues a crime report based on polling called the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS).  So it is not based on arrest records influenced by police bias.  It shows that blacks are more likely to commit crimes against people and/or property. 

But studies of drug use show that pretty much the same percentage of white people and black people use illegal drugs.  So it is hard to explain why blacks are arrested and sentenced longer (even taking into account criminal history) than blacks. 

There is clearly a bias in the system all the way from police through prosecutors, judges, and even jurors.  And most of it is based on the idea that blacks and other minorities are more likely to be criminals.

(06-01-2018, 01:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Fred addresses this later and I'll go into more detail in my response to him, but this is, sadly, not the case.

Y'all are correct. After looking back over the research I had used it does specify drug crimes. I misremembered the information.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-01-2018, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Whichever group appeared to be acting in a suspicious manner.

Ahh, so acting in a suspicious manner is a far greater determinant for LEO contact than age, gender or ethnicity?  Interesting

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-01-2018, 02:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Stop and frisk is a product of broken windows policing. What SSF is talking about is how middle and upper class drug dealers tend to handle their business behind closed doors. The drug deals that happen out in the open, as those in lower class neighborhoods are at a higher rate, are easier to bust.

Precisely correct.  There is also the factor that upper and middle class drug users have money on hand to purchase said drugs.  Many lower income drug users resort to criminal activity to obtain money for their drug use.  Not to mention that street level drug sales are the purview of criminal street gangs and all the peripheral criminal activity, and law enforcement scrutiny, inherent in that.  So, as we've stated, there is a very logical and fact based reason for this apparent discrepancy that has nothing to do with ethnicity.

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2018, 02:18 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Ahh, so acting in a suspicious manner is a far greater determinant for LEO contact than age, gender or ethnicity?  Interesting

Only between the two choices you gave me.

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2018, 03:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Precisely correct.  There is also the factor that upper and middle class drug users have money on hand to purchase said drugs.  Many lower income drug users resort to criminal activity to obtain money for their drug use.  Not to mention that street level drug sales are the purview of criminal street gangs and all the peripheral criminal activity, and law enforcement scrutiny, inherent in that.  So, as we've stated, there is a very logical and fact based reason for this apparent discrepancy that has nothing to do with ethnicity.

Even when it comes to street sales cops concentrate on minorities selling crack instead of white people selling other drugs


 Katherine Beckett, Kris Nyrop & Lori Pfingst, Race, Drugs, and Policing: Understanding Disparities in Drug Delivery Arrests, 44 CRIMINOLOGY 1, 105 (2006); see KATHERINE BECKETT, DEFENDER ASS’N’S RACIAL DISPARITY PROJECT, RACE AND DRUG LAW ENFORCEMENT IN SEATTLE (2004), available at http://www.soc.washington.edu/users/ kbeckett/Enforcement.pdf. 

 Although the majority of those who shared, sold, or transferred serious drugs in Seattle are white (indeed seventy percent of the general Seattle population is white), almost two-thirds (64.2%) of drug arrestees are black. The racially disproportionate drug arrests result from the police department’s emphasis on the outdoor drug market in the racially diverse downtown area of the city, its lack of attention to other outdoor markets that are predominantly white, and its emphasis on crack. Three-quarters of the drug arrests were crack-related even though only an estimated one-third of the city’s drug transactions involved crack. 

The researchers could not find a “racially neutral” explanation for the police prioritization of the downtown drug markets and crack. The focus on crack offenders, for example, did not appear to be a function of the frequency of crack transactions compared to other drugs, public safety or public health concerns, crime rates, or citizen complaints

 Whites constitute the majority of those who deliver methamphetamine, ecstasy, powder cocaine, and heroin in Seattle; blacks are the majority of those who deliver crack.  Powder cocaine was involved in an estimated 22.7% of outdoor transactions, but accounted for only 3.8% of drug arrests; methamphetamine was involved in 10.7% of outdoor transactions yet only 1.1% of drug arrests; and heroin was involved in 33% of transactions but in only 16.4% of arrests

[*PhilHos*]

(05-31-2018, 06:13 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: It's been a while since I posted on this board and in my first post back I'm actually siding with fredtoast on this. What have you done PhilHos?

I honestly don't understand the question.

(05-31-2018, 06:13 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Anyway.... I'm kind of in disbelief by your statement. What exactly is it about "today's climate" that makes it hard to believe that an average citizen would call the police on some black guys "doing nothing wrong"? 

First off, I don't believe the average citizen in America is racist.
More importantly, this thread wasn't started by the OP because he came across some obscure story. The fact is, that even the hint of someone being openly racism is huge news and while I don't deny the existence of racists and racism, I don't believe the average citizen is racist and I also don't believe the average racist will be open about his or her racism outside of a larger group.

(05-31-2018, 06:13 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: You know what's funny is the remark itself is pretty subjective because it's left up to everyone's personal opinion of what exactly should be considered "doing something wrong" enough for the cops to need to be called. For some people, being black is enough "wrong" for the cops to be called.

I don't deny that. When I say "doing something wrong" I mean "actually doing something wrong". Just because Old Man Whitey McRacist thinks a black man changing a tire is warrant enough to call the cops, doesn't mean the black man did something wrong. Breaking the law IS doing somthing wrong.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-01-2018, 04:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Even when it comes to street sales cops concentrate on minorities selling crack instead of white people selling other drugs


 Katherine Beckett, Kris Nyrop & Lori Pfingst, Race, Drugs, and Policing: Understanding Disparities in Drug Delivery Arrests, 44 CRIMINOLOGY 1, 105 (2006); see KATHERINE BECKETT, DEFENDER ASS’N’S RACIAL DISPARITY PROJECT, RACE AND DRUG LAW ENFORCEMENT IN SEATTLE (2004), available at http://www.soc.washington.edu/users/ kbeckett/Enforcement.pdf. 

 Although the majority of those who shared, sold, or transferred serious drugs in Seattle are white (indeed seventy percent of the general Seattle population is white), almost two-thirds (64.2%) of drug arrestees are black. The racially disproportionate drug arrests result from the police department’s emphasis on the outdoor drug market in the racially diverse downtown area of the city, its lack of attention to other outdoor markets that are predominantly white, and its emphasis on crack. Three-quarters of the drug arrests were crack-related even though only an estimated one-third of the city’s drug transactions involved crack. 

The researchers could not find a “racially neutral” explanation for the police prioritization of the downtown drug markets and crack. The focus on crack offenders, for example, did not appear to be a function of the frequency of crack transactions compared to other drugs, public safety or public health concerns, crime rates, or citizen complaints

 Whites constitute the majority of those who deliver methamphetamine, ecstasy, powder cocaine, and heroin in Seattle; blacks are the majority of those who deliver crack.  Powder cocaine was involved in an estimated 22.7% of outdoor transactions, but accounted for only 3.8% of drug arrests; methamphetamine was involved in 10.7% of outdoor transactions yet only 1.1% of drug arrests; and heroin was involved in 33% of transactions but in only 16.4% of arrests

Your source literally corroborated a majority of my points.  The fact that the study claims they could not find a "racially neutral" factor for the disparity does not mean one does not exist.  Unless your point is that a liberal progressive haven such as Seattle is inherently, systemically, racist.  That would be an interesting assertion.  As far as "crime rate" what does that mean?  Crimes against persons attract more attention than crimes against property.  Are they saying that the crime rate across the board is the same for all these "outdoor drug markets"?  Also, your single study does nothing to dispute the logic or facts presented in my argument.  You can keep trying on this one but I don't see you gaining a lot of traction.

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2018, 04:36 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You can keep trying on this one but I don't see you gaining a lot of traction.

I keep posting scientific studies and actual police admitting that racial profiling exists.

You just keep posting your opinion and calling police liars.

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2018, 04:13 PM)PhilHos Wrote: First off, I don't believe the average citizen in America is racist.

The average citizen is not a thief, but you still lock your doors at night.  And you don't act like everyone who gets something stolen was somehow at fault themselves.

The average person does not have to be a thief for theft to be a BIG problem in this country and effect a lot of people.

[*bfine32*]

(06-01-2018, 04:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I keep posting scientific studies and actual police admitting that racial profiling exists.

You just keep posting your opinion and calling police liars.

Do you have any scientific students of crime committed by demographic?