Bad Boys II

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-11-2020, 08:54 AM)GMDino Wrote: After catching up a bit it's good to see that we can agree that police need more and better training and that there is an admission that they are human and get frustrated and do bad things.  Problem is it's less acceptable (to me) for them to do bad things because they hove much more protection as "part of their job".

The more power and responsibility your job entails the more accountability, of course.  Where people err on this issue is lumping in reasonable uses of force, even lethal, with the bad.  This muddies the waters and eventually creates an atmosphere in which all use of force is seen as wrong or excessive.  Mike Brown is a perfect example.  He is still continually brought up as a victim of state sanctioned murder even though the Obama DOJ did an exhaustive investigation and concluded that his shooting was entirely justified.  In fact the whole "hands up, don't shoot" started with that and it was proven that it's based on a complete falsehood.

Quote:*I* can't be having a bad day and yell at the officer but *I* am to remain calm and "do as I'm told" in a stressful situation.  Cross an imaginary line, don't show the officer enough "respect", "sound nervous", anything and I lose my freedom (even temporarily), have to pay fines, etc.

Officer has a long, bad day and accidentally kills someone and we're to collectively shrug our shoulders because they're human and just a few bad apples are staining the whole bunch?

Not sure that's the proper way to look at it from my perspective.

And you just provided an example of what I'm talking about above.  LEO's get treated like shit on a regular basis.  In 99.99% of those occasions they do not respond inappropriately.  Quit perpetuating this kind of BS trope if you're actually serious about having this conversation.

Quote:But we're moving in the right direction.  It's just going to take time and be painful so naturally people are resisting it.

Maybe we are, but I'm rather concerned there is going to be the classic over-correction.  While I feel for the law abiding citizens there I hope Minneapolis does abolish the police in their city so the rest of the country can learn from the inevitable shitstorm that will result.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-11-2020, 08:04 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I would argue that it is the war on drugs that has left black communities without male role models. The data shows that they aren't there in the neighborhoods. If it was the welfare state then they would be around even if not in the household.

I agree, as stated in my original post, except it didn't start with that.  The decay obviously began in the early 70's. 

Quote:That being said, our shitty welfare system is in part to blame for the violence. The strongest correlation to non-state/criminal violence around the world is income inequality. Considering we, here in the US, have inequality on par more with developing nations rather than our WEIRD nation cohorts, I'd say that plays a strong role.

Income inequality is an interesting area to study, especially in contrast with Europe.  The average take home income in the US is higher than pretty much every European nation.  I know people in Europe who've stated that people have comparatively little disposable income there and almost everyone rents.  I am aware you get a lot more services in Europe due to the high tax rate.  It does disturb me that the average family income in the US is under $60k especially as that's usually with two earners in the family.

[Belsnickel]

(06-11-2020, 11:39 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I agree, as stated in my original post, except it didn't start with that.  The decay obviously began in the early 70's. 

Well, except the War on Drugs really started during the '70s. No, not officially in name, but that is when the policies really started.

(06-11-2020, 11:39 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Income inequality is an interesting area to study, especially in contrast with Europe.  The average take home income in the US is higher than pretty much every European nation.  I know people in Europe who've stated that people have comparatively little disposable income there and almost everyone rents.  I am aware you get a lot more services in Europe due to the high tax rate.  It does disturb me that the average family income in the US is under $60k especially as that's usually with two earners in the family.

The average take home income may be higher in the US, but income inequality is higher meaning that there is much more disparity between the wealthy and the poor in our country. So when you realize that we have a higher take home income, but also a higher income inequality, it can make you realize just how much of a disparity there is to make it that our take home income average is higher.

I hope that made sense. It made sense in my head but I was having a hard time articulating it.

[GMDino]

(06-11-2020, 11:50 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, except the War on Drugs really started during the '70s. No, not officially in name, but that is when the policies really started.


The average take home income may be higher in the US, but income inequality is higher meaning that there is much more disparity between the wealthy and the poor in our country. So when you realize that we have a higher take home income, but also a higher income inequality, it can make you realize just how much of a disparity there is to make it that our take home income average is higher.

I hope that made sense. It made sense in my head but I was having a hard time articulating it.

Well when we say early 70's and then find out that is when the war on drugs started then, um...there is no racism?

All seriousness aside without a deep dive into a lot of subjects it's not hard to just say "there is no systematic racism".  Saying that just makes people feel better.  All of these things are connected and they all need addressed.  But just like police brutality and reform it will take time, there will be more mistakes made (an over-correction) and then a move toward fixing things.

As an aside those who fear "over-corrections" probably do so becuase they fear being treated like they treat others.  Or that it will be a "waste of time" as opposed to to simply doing things as we've always done them and pretending change will be too hard.

[BmorePat87]

(06-11-2020, 11:50 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, except the War on Drugs really started during the '70s. No, not officially in name, but that is when the policies really started.


The average take home income may be higher in the US, but income inequality is higher meaning that there is much more disparity between the wealthy and the poor in our country. So when you realize that we have a higher take home income, but also a higher income inequality, it can make you realize just how much of a disparity there is to make it that our take home income average is higher.

I hope that made sense. It made sense in my head but I was having a hard time articulating it.

and of course a decade prior, you starting seeing urban renewal, where 80%-90% of families displaced were families of color and the majority happening in redlined neighborhoods.

Redlining meant that the home prices in those neighborhoods were already well below market value, so any compensation would be inadequate for purchasing a new home.

As we know, housing discrimination still existed, so even if you could afford moving to a new neighborhood, it was likely that they would refuse to sell you a home.

It's like decade after decade of federal, state, and local policies preventing black people from getting access to loans to build property wealth, access equitable primary/secondary education, enrollment in post-secondary education, and purchasing homes had a devastating impact that ensured that the accumulation of generational wealth could not occur. 

Combined with the war on drugs, deinstitutionalization, Vietnam, and mass incarceration...

[masonbengals fan]

https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/12/lincoln-monuments-defaced-by-anti-racism-rioters-is-what-teaching-fake-history-gets-america/

Who draws the line where this stops?

[GMDino]

(06-12-2020, 10:27 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/12/lincoln-monuments-defaced-by-anti-racism-rioters-is-what-teaching-fake-history-gets-america/

Who draws the line where this stops?

Who finances the Federalist?

https://www.whitehouse.senate.gov/news/speeches/the-third-federalist-society#:~:text=The%20evidence%20is%20that%20the,via%20an%20entity%20called%20DonorsTrust.

[masonbengals fan]

The truth is the truth. Did you even bother to read the article before trying to debunk it. I didn't think so.

[BmorePat87]

(06-12-2020, 10:27 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/12/lincoln-monuments-defaced-by-anti-racism-rioters-is-what-teaching-fake-history-gets-america/

Who draws the line where this stops?

Had you asked the same question with any of the killings, I might be able to approach this post genuinely. 

Some defaced statues though? Yea, that's the real injustice. Statues can replaced, lives cannot.

Also, the commentary at the end of the article is garbage. This is by no means a sign of indoctrination from academia. I am interested in hearing her thoughts on the killings or the promotion of the Lost Cause, given her Karen level of concern over "fake history". 

Like this post, the article stinks of privilege. When you're able to ignore the murder of innocent Americans and instead channel your outrage over some spray paint on statues, things are pretty good. 

[masonbengals fan]

(06-12-2020, 11:51 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Had you asked the same question with any of the killings, I might be able to approach this post genuinely. 

Some defaced statues though? Yea, that's the real injustice. Statues can replaced, lives cannot.

Also, the commentary at the end of the article is garbage. This is by no means a sign of indoctrination from academia. I am interested in hearing her thoughts on the killings or the promotion of the Lost Cause, given her Karen level of concern over "fake history". 

Like this post, the article stinks of privilege. When you're able to ignore the murder of innocent Americans and instead channel your outrage over some spray paint on statues, things are pretty good. 

Who is arguing/ignoring the outright murder of George Floyd ? I sincerely hope an example is set with all bad cops. You like a lot of other people are somehow debating with yourselves.  Totally unable to distinguish that one wrong (And I realize it just isn't one) doesn't justify more. 

Stinks of privilege huh?

[samhain]

(06-12-2020, 11:51 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Had you asked the same question with any of the killings, I might be able to approach this post genuinely. 

Some defaced statues though? Yea, that's the real injustice. Statues can replaced, lives cannot.

Also, the commentary at the end of the article is garbage. This is by no means a sign of indoctrination from academia. I am interested in hearing her thoughts on the killings or the promotion of the Lost Cause, given her Karen level of concern over "fake history". 

Like this post, the article stinks of privilege. When you're able to ignore the murder of innocent Americans and instead channel your outrage over some spray paint on statues, things are pretty good. 

When will the town of Springfield finally force Bart Simpson to answer for the decapitation of it's founding father?

[BmorePat87]

(06-12-2020, 12:31 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Who is arguing/ignoring the outright murder of George Floyd ?

Umm, you? You haven't posted a single thing about it and have instead only complained about protestors in this thread.

Quote: I sincerely hope an example is set with all bad cops. 

I'm glad you've said that after 3 weeks

Quote:You like a lot of other people are somehow debating with yourselves.  Totally unable to distinguish that one wrong (And I realize it just isn't one) doesn't justify more. 

I didn't justify any wrongs, I highlighted your selective outrage and then pointed to the similar selective outrage in the article. 

Quote:Stinks of privilege huh?

When you're more upset with statues being defaced than innocent people dying, that's a pretty good term to use. 

[fredtoast]

(06-12-2020, 10:27 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote: https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/12/lincoln-monuments-defaced-by-anti-racism-rioters-is-what-teaching-fake-history-gets-america/

Who draws the line where this stops?

This is some hilarious shit.

Apparently people who don't think a Constitution that said  blacks were equal to 3/5ths of a human "guarantees freedom and equality" are victims of "fake facts".

Same for people who refuse to say they are proud that we slaughtered the native Americans and built our country on slave labor.

And even though the United Sates has one of the biggest income inequalities among industrialized nations anyone who says that we are among the most unequal countries in the world is spewing a "fake stat"

[masonbengals fan]

What's hilarious although truly sad is that people on this very forum are so indoctrinated they can't even agree that people tearing down monuments to heroes that were on the right side of history is wrong. Should we not both condemn the cops who killed George Floyd (And anyone like them) & the idiots vandalizing national historical sites such as the Lincoln memorial, Union hero Admiral David Farragut' statue and the WW2 memorial.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-12-2020, 09:01 AM)GMDino Wrote: Well when we say early 70's and then find out that is when the war on drugs started then, um...there is no racism?

Who said that?

Quote:All seriousness aside without a deep dive into a lot of subjects it's not hard to just say "there is no systematic racism". 

Who said that?

Quote:Saying that just makes people feel better.  All of these things are connected and they all need addressed.  But just like police brutality and reform it will take time, there will be more mistakes made (an over-correction) and then a move toward fixing things.

Should we not be concerned with over correction?  Is being concerned about a response that will solve nothing being racist?

Quote:As an aside those who fear "over-corrections" probably do so becuase they fear being treated like they treat others. 

Try being a man and actually stating what you're trying to to say instead of alluding to it.  

Quote:Or that it will be a "waste of time" as opposed to to simply doing things as we've always done them and pretending change will be too hard.

First, change is always hard.  But, who said it was a "waste of time"?  One of the most interesting things about this sub forum is watching you be exactly what you profess to despise.  I say this because it's patently obvious.  If you want real solutions then you should be just as concerned about over correction as you are about doing nothing.  Clearly, you don't, which is why I've always found you a less than credible person.  I have significant issues with Fred's positions, but the man is clearly honest, without concern about how his positions will perceived by those among the "woke".  If you had any sense of self awareness you'd be ashamed of yourself.  I await your unoriginal gif response.  

[BmorePat87]

(06-12-2020, 06:39 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: What's hilarious although truly sad is that people on this very forum are so indoctrinated they can't even agree that people tearing down monuments to  heroes that were on the right side of history is wrong. Should we not both condemn the cops who killed George Floyd (And anyone like them) & the idiots vandalizing national historical sites such as the Lincoln memorial, Union hero Admiral David Farragut' statue and the WW2 memorial.

LOL, "indoctrinated". You didn't mention George Floyd on here until a few hours ago when you were called out. He was murdered 18 days ago and your only contribution to threads involving his murder were to complain about protestors damaging property.

Please stop trying to draw some sort of comparison between humans being killed and statues getting graffiti'd. It's pathetic. 

[masonbengals fan]

Again with the arguing with yourself. There is no comparison & I never said there was.

[BmorePat87]

(06-12-2020, 06:39 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Should we not both condemn the cops who killed George Floyd (And anyone like them) & the idiots vandalizing national historical sites such as the Lincoln memorial, Union hero Admiral David Farragut' statue and the WW2 memorial.

(06-12-2020, 07:39 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: There is no comparison & I never said there was.

I understand that you're not going to actually respond to my criticism of the author's selective outrage, the merits of claiming graffiti on statues is a sign of academia "indoctrinating", or why you didn't speak George Floyd's name until 18 days after his death I pointed out that you've only mentioned protestors in this thread, but don't embarrass yourself by claiming you weren't trying to draw a comparison between the two.

[masonbengals fan]

I'm not at all embarrassed by my post.

[GMDino]

The backstory is my dad was in a union...and they caved and deserted the guys at the factory so I grew up no fan of unions.  I've never been in one.

However I understand the need for them to fight back against the money and power held by the businesses.

Public sector unions I know less about.

I have some dealing with our local teachers union and I have supported them in their various fights and causes.

But the police union seems to be a different beast.  They are protecting people who are given wide latitude in their behavior, are rarely punished for violent and illegal acts and want to stop any reforms to help their own members look better.

https://www.storycityherald.com/zz/news/20200612/the-major-stumbling-block-powerful-police-unions-stand-in-way-of-structural-reform-experts-say

Like I said: change is hard.  No one likes it.  Fear of "over-corrections" are well founded but NO correction of the current course is unacceptable in my opinion.