Ben Carson and West Point

[BmorePat87]

I'm not sure if anyone followed this, but Ben Carson has mentioned many times how he was offered a full scholarship to West Point but turned it down. Politico began to dig into this and found that Carson never applied to West Point nor was he ever offered entrance into West Point.

In his book, Gifted Hands, Carson said

Quote:Sgt. Hunt introduced me to General Westmoreland, and I had dinner with him and the Congressional Medal winners. Later I was offered a full scholarship to West Point. I didn’t refuse the scholarship outright, but I let them know that a military career wasn’t where I saw myself going.

Politico used Army records to show that General Westmoreland was not in Detroit when Carson claimed he was. They also contacted West Point and found out that Carson never applied to the school nor was he offered entrance.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/ben-carson-west-point-215598

the Washington Post points out that the story should have never made sense as you do not get scholarships to West Point, your tuition is covered because of your subsequent service to the country.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/11/06/why-ben-carsons-west-point-scholarship-claim-made-no-sense-from-the-beginning/

Now, it is possible that a young Ben Carson did not realize this and was told "your costs will be covered". That's understandable. To any 17 year old, this might sound like a full ride. His campaign is now saying that he was told by his commander that he could get in if he applied since he was a top ROTC member in Detroit. Again, it's reasonable to think that a 17 year old understands this as "if I applied, I'd get in".


Is this a big deal?

[GMDino]

(11-07-2015, 10:55 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I'm not sure if anyone followed this, but Ben Carson has mentioned many times how he was offered a full scholarship to West Point but turned it down. Politico began to dig into this and found that Carson never applied to West Point nor was he ever offered entrance into West Point.

In his book, Gifted Hands, Carson said


Politico used Army records to show that General Westmoreland was not in Detroit when Carson claimed he was. They also contacted West Point and found out that Carson never applied to the school nor was he offered entrance.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/ben-carson-west-point-215598

the Washington Post points out that the story should have never made sense as you do not get scholarships to West Point, your tuition is covered because of your subsequent service to the country.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/11/06/why-ben-carsons-west-point-scholarship-claim-made-no-sense-from-the-beginning/

Now, it is possible that a young Ben Carson did not realize this and was told "your costs will be covered". That's understandable. To any 17 year old, this might sound like a full ride. His campaign is now saying that he was told by his commander that he could get in if he applied since he was a top ROTC member in Detroit. Again, it's reasonable to think that a 17 year old understands this as "if I applied, I'd get in".


Is this a big deal?

It was brought up in the "Joseph built the Pyramids" thread too. Also he said he was accepted and decided to not go. That is different from misunderstand how it would be paid for.

I think it just goes to (further) show that Carson is a brilliant surgeon but otherwise an idiot.  Some think its OK if he lied as long as we don't say he's a idiot.

Lying about his past is not at the top of the reason I think he shouldn't be POTUS.

[*bfine32*]

At best it was embellishment, at worst it was deceit. As Carson gains popularity he will be further vetted and exposed by those that oppose him. Unfortunately for Carson all the opponents have to take aim at is his character. We currently have folks going back 18 years to bring up things he said in a speech to a bunch of students associated with his SDA believes.  There is no opportunity to point to inconsistent voting records and the such.

Ben's character is no worse than any other candidate, it is just that it will be focused on more that any other candidate; perhaps with the exception of Trump, but for the same reason. I do think these continuous attempted attacks on his character will only serve to harden the resolve of those that support him.

As to the USMA fabrication: So what? Hell, the current President once attributed his birth to the Selma marches. Only thing wrong with it was he was 4 years old when they occurred,

[BmorePat87]

(11-07-2015, 11:26 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Unfortunately for Carson all the opponents have to take aim at is his character. 

Ben's character is no worse than any other candidate, it is just that it will be focused on more that any other candidate; perhaps with the exception of Trump, but for the same reason. I do think these continuous attempted attacks on his character will only serve to harden the resolve of those that support him.

I think this is a pretty good assessment. I will say that I believe it is fair to address his character since he is basically running on it. We all run on our character when we have no previous experience. It might help his cause if he stopped saying things like this:

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/11/05/ben-carsons-absurd-notion-that-the-founding-fathers-had-no-elected-office-experience/

He later edited his facebook post to say "no federal elected experience", but the damage was done. 


On the other side, those who support candidates with a lot of experience need to understand that character criticism can go both ways. Clinton's character is just as relevant as Carson's. How she handled a situation like Benghazi is relevant to voters who are being asked if she should be the ultimate executive. 

[xxlt]

1. I think it is a big deal, because the man seems to live in a parallel universe where what he understands and thinks is radically different from what reality looks like - in other words, from the first quote I saw in print from him over a year ago, I thought the man was crazy. It isn't because he misunderstood something at 17, it is because he misunderstands things perpetually. This is probably not about what he misunderstood at 17, but another example of delusion and/or willful lying.

2. I am starting to hear many more people express this concern, i.e. that Ben is non compos mentis.

3. Overheard the other day when debates brought up in conversation a seemingly sane sober woman said, "I lived in Detroit and I knew Ben Carson from my neighborhood and/or church [I don't recall her exact words but think she said both]. Was he a nice man? Yes. Crazy as a loon, but a nice man. I knew from the moment I met him he is crazy."

Obviously the woman who said she knew him could have been lying, but I doubt it. I spoke to a US Congressman yesterday. I met a member of W's cabinet once. It really is a small world.

[*bfine32*]

(11-07-2015, 11:35 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I think this is a pretty good assessment. I will say that I believe it is fair to address his character since he is basically running on it. We all run on our character when we have no previous experience. It might help his cause if he stopped saying things like this:

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/11/05/ben-carsons-absurd-notion-that-the-founding-fathers-had-no-elected-office-experience/

He later edited his facebook post to say "no federal elected experience", but the damage was done. 


On the other side, those who support candidates with a lot of experience need to understand that character criticism can go both ways. Clinton's character is just as relevant as Carson's. How she handled a situation like Benghazi is relevant to voters who are being asked if she should be the ultimate executive. 

Of course it is fair to asses his character; it is just that his will be further dissected than others. For instance his religious believes are at the center of the bullseye, while I couldn't even tell you what Clinton's religious believes are off the top of my head.

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2015, 11:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course it is fair to asses his character; it is just that his will be further dissected than others. For instance his religious believes are at the center of the bullseye, while I couldn't even tell you what Clinton's religious believes are off the top of my head.

If Clinton claims that Muslims should not be allowed to elected office without publicly disavowing their religion, or that Christians are persecuted more than gays in the United States then you can bet her religion will become a big issue.

His beliefs are a big issue because he has made them a big issue.  His first big political splash was at the big Prayer Breakfast in DC a few years ago.

[GMDino]

But wait! There's more!

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/11/06/caught-again-two-more-ben-carson-stories-appear-to-be-made-up/

Two More Ben Carson Stories Appear To Be Made Up

Quote:Ben Carson’s classmates and a teacher from Southwestern High in Detroit told the Wall Street Journal they can’t confirm or verify yet another story from Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson.

Carson told the conservative paper – whose editorial department was the first to encourage him to run for President – that in 1968, on the day after Martin Luther King Jr. was killed, he protected white students from attacks from angry black students.

Quote:It is a dramatic account of courage and kindness, and it couldn’t be confirmed in interviews with a half-dozen of Mr. Carson’s classmates and his high school physics teacher. The students all remembered the riot. None recalled hearing about white students hiding in the biology lab, and Mr. Carson couldn’t remember any names of those he sheltered.

“It may have happened, but I didn’t see it myself or hear about it,” said Gregory Vartanian, a white classmate of Mr. Carson’s who served in the ROTC with Mr. Carson and is now a retired U.S. Marshal.

The Journal also uncovered another story from Carson that doesn’t pass the smell test. In his autobiography, Gifted Hands, Carson claimed that a Yale psychology professor told his class – Perceptions 101 – that their final exam papers had burned up and they had to retake the examination. Carson wrote that everyone but him walked out of the class, and then he was told the story was a hoax in order to find and award “the monest honest student in the class.” Carson then claimed a photo of him was taken by a photographer from the Yale Daily News.

The anecdote may have been completely made up:

Quote:No photo identifying Mr. Carson as a student ever ran, according to the Yale Daily News archives, and no stories from that era mention a class called Perceptions 301. Yale Librarian Claryn Spies said Friday there was no psychology course by that name or class number during any of Mr. Carson’s years at Yale.

This latest revelation comes as Carson finds himself under fire for bizarre statements and what appear to be false claims about his background.

CNN was unable to find anyone from his past to verify a story about him stabbing a “close relative” when he was a child, while Politico reported that Carson’s claim that he was offered a “scholarship” to West Point that he turned down also appeared to be untrue.

Carson has positioned himself as the candidate of choice for Christian conservatives, but as his background comes into conflict with the biblical admonishment to not bear false witness, the future may become rocky for the former neurosurgeon.

But I guess we're just focusing on his character too much.

[*bfine32*]

(11-07-2015, 01:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If Clinton claims that Muslims should not be allowed to elected office without publicly disavowing their religion, or that Christians are persecuted more than gays in the United States then you can bet her religion will become a big issue.

His beliefs are a big issue because he has made them a big issue.  His first big political splash was at the big Prayer Breakfast in DC a few years ago.

Where have I disagreed with any of this.

Folks apparently took my comments as some sort of justification of his words. It is just his character is all the opposition have to attack. I can bet that Clinton's believes would receive a lot more focus if not for the opportunity to focus on other things.

Remember when Obama spoke to his Muslim faith? Yet if folks point to his religious believes they are attacking.

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2015, 01:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Remember when Obama spoke to his Muslim faith? Yet if folks point to his religious believes they are attacking.

What exactly did he say about his Muslim faith?  

I have heard him make comments about the Muslim faith, but I have never heard him claim it was "his".  Everything I have heard him say indicates he is a Christian.

[*bfine32*]

(11-07-2015, 01:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What exactly did he say about his Muslim faith?  

I have heard him make comments about the Muslim faith, but I have never heard him claim it was "his".  Everything I have heard him say indicates he is a Christian.

https://youtu.be/bMUgNg7aD8M

[GMDino]

(11-07-2015, 01:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: https://youtu.be/bMUgNg7aD8M

Context?

Nah.

[BmorePat87]

(11-07-2015, 02:06 PM)GMDino Wrote: Context?

Nah.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslimfaith.asp

[Aquapod770]

Not a big deal. Especially when West Point used to advertise "a full government scholarship".

https://books.google.com/books?id=e14EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA153&dq=%22west%20point%22%20tuition%20scholarship&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q=%22west%20point%22%20tuition%20scholarship&f=false

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2015, 02:13 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslimfaith.asp

To bad BFine refuses to even look any any source of information that does not support his own beliefs.

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2015, 02:30 PM)Aquapod770 Wrote: Not a big deal. Especially when West Point used to advertise "a full government scholarship".

https://books.google.com/books?id=e14EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA153&dq=%22west%20point%22%20tuition%20scholarship&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q=%22west%20point%22%20tuition%20scholarship&f=false

Not a big deal if he had applied and been accepted.

But he wasn't.

[JustWinBaby]

Carson is the most animated and interesting I've seen him trying to deflect charges he lied. Like, holy crap, there might actually be a personality in there!

Although a lot of this is semantics. Carson should have run as a Democrat if he wanted people to ignore stuff he "mis-remembered"

[*bfine32*]

(11-07-2015, 02:06 PM)GMDino Wrote: Context?

Nah.

So "in context" he was playing the victim card until called on it. And Muslim connections became Muslim faith.

[GMDino]

(11-07-2015, 02:13 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslimfaith.asp

Kind of what I figured.

(11-07-2015, 04:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So "in context" he was playing the victim card until called on it. And Muslim connections became Muslim faith.

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2015, 04:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So "in context" he was playing the victim card until called on it. And Muslim connections became Muslim faith.

Uh, no.