Bernie Supporters and Bad Memes

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-15-2015, 12:15 PM)GMDino Wrote: One of my right wing friends (and I do have them) was arguing about "corporate greed" with me a couple weeks ago and demanded I tell him what country has done better than America and its capitalism.

I argued that America and capitalism is NOT the problem.  Greed is.  America did great for a long time in allowing everyone (most) to grow together.  Then for the last 30+ years we turned to profit over people and "trickle down" and killed ourselves as a nation.  Even he agreed there is a difference between working hard and making as much as you can and "greed" that puts other people out so you can make more.

Exactly right.  I am what you would call a "moderate", I guess.  I am a registered independent (and damn proud of that fact), and have only voted for duopoly of corruption candidate once in my entire voting career.  I see the good and bad in "both" sides.

That said, if anyone can't see that trickle down is a farce.....I've got some ocean front vistas in Butte I'd like to discuss with them.  Sight unseen, of course.

(BTW, Germany protects its workers, and last I saw, they were several spots ahead of us in the world economy  )

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-15-2015, 01:08 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: To be honest.... there are a lot of people in my area who are the "baller" welfare people.
I'm not sure how they go about it, but they have the latest iPhone and drive Caddys and such.
What baffles me is that I know of one 19 year old (no children) who COULD work, but doesn't, and only has to pay $18 for one months rent in government subsidized housing.
I also know people who work for $12/hour that are in poverty, who can get no help.
It's no wonder why people give up and take the easy route.
So, what do we do ?
I think we need to make the assistance program a little more restrictive and add a small amount to the minimum wage to close the gap between the working poor and the people "ballin".
I'd really like to see assistance programs tied more into education and training programs, but it would take someone brighter than I to develop such a thing.

I would about bet you dollars to donuts that the ballers are peddling drugs on the side.  I've seen that from neighbors I had during my college years.  It used to piss me off so bad, come home from class to get ready for WORK.....barely affording balogna...while my neighbor was grillin' steaks from his EBT card.  He was rollin' a Caddy, I was ridin' in a multi colored Civic CRX. He was constantly in and out....as well as regular visits from the same cars over and over.  Still get pissed off thinking about that.....

[GMDino]

(07-15-2015, 02:57 PM)Wyche Wrote: I would about bet you dollars to donuts that the ballers are peddling drugs on the side.  I've seen that from neighbors I had during my college years.  It used to piss me off so bad, come home from class to get ready for WORK.....barely affording balogna...while my neighbor was grillin' steaks from his EBT card.  He was rollin' a Caddy, I was ridin' in a multi colored Civic CRX.  He was constantly in and out....as well as regular visits from the same cars over and over.  Still get pissed off thinking about that.....

There is some of that.  I saw it in another job which required me to go into the projects a good bit.

But the only way to catch them is to increase funding to the people who look for fraud.  And increasing any budget for an "entitlement" program ain't gonna happen.

[Rotobeast]

(07-15-2015, 02:57 PM)Wyche Wrote: I would about bet you dollars to donuts that the ballers are peddling drugs on the side.  I've seen that from neighbors I had during my college years.  It used to piss me off so bad, come home from class to get ready for WORK.....barely affording balogna...while my neighbor was grillin' steaks from his EBT card.  He was rollin' a Caddy, I was ridin' in a multi colored Civic CRX.  He was constantly in and out....as well as regular visits from the same cars over and over.  Still get pissed off thinking about that.....

I've often thought a toll-road at any housing development would be a good idea.
Non-residents pay and residents pay for anything over twice in & twice out.
Of course plates would be recorded at the stop. 

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-15-2015, 03:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: There is some of that.  I saw it in another job which required me to go into the projects a good bit.

But the only way to catch them is to increase funding to the people who look for fraud.  And increasing any budget for an "entitlement" program ain't gonna happen.

Or legalize drugs so that dealers don't make that much money. 

[6andcounting]

(07-15-2015, 04:54 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Or legalize drugs so that dealers don't make that much money. 

Become a drug dealer and run the guys you don't like out of business.

[fredtoast]

(07-15-2015, 01:08 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: To be honest.... there are a lot of people in my area who are the "baller" welfare people.
I'm not sure how they go about it, but they have the latest iPhone and drive Caddys and such.

I have driven through a lot of government housing projects in my day (don't ask), and I didn't see ANY nice cars parked there. 

I know that there is a lot of abuse going on, but usually unless people are involved in illegal activity they are still not getting by so well that people with jobs would quit to join them.

The problem is that people on the right and the programmers at Fox news convince people that EVERY person receiving government benefits is a lazy crook with tons of money. the fact is that there are a lot of people working hard at minimum wage jobs who struggle to get by from day to day.

[fredtoast]

(07-15-2015, 04:54 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Or legalize drugs so that dealers don't make that much money. 

And use the tax revenue from selling it legally to treat the addiction problems that keep so many people in poverty to begin with.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-16-2015, 02:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And use the tax revenue from selling it legally to treat the addiction problems that keep so many people in poverty to begin with.

We agree at last. 

[BmorePat87]

lol, what? Dude gets plenty of media coverage.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(07-15-2015, 09:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is the first step.

We have to get past all the people who claim it doesn't exist or that it doesn't matter before we can do anything to address the problems.

Right now there are too many people who think poor people are living the high life with nice cars, plasma TVs, and cell phones without ever having to work.  That type of rhetoric is what is preventing people from wanting to do anything about income inequality.  The fact is that many people who work very hard live in poverty and die young because of it.

We have to convince the voters that poverty really is bad before we can ever do anything to help the situation.

Yeah, if only Bernie can just as good tackling this key issue as Zero has the last 7 years.  

If you can't succeed in America, you deserve to fail.  Sorry, but it's true.  There's nobody holding people back but themselves.  

[fredtoast]

(08-10-2015, 10:14 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: If you can't succeed in America, you deserve to fail.  Sorry, but it's true.  There's nobody holding people back but themselves.  

Sorry, but that is not true at all.

The system is set up to make it impossible for everyone to succeed.  

Even if every single person worked as hard as they could it is impossible for every person to have a well paying job.  There are always going to be a lot of people working in low paying jobs even if every single person had a graduate degree.

The claim that everyone can succeed is a total lie.  It is completely impossible for everyone to be on top because there will always be a limited number of positions on the top and a large number of positions in the middle and lower classes.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-11-2015, 02:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Sorry, but that is not true at all.

The system is set up to make it impossible for everyone to succeed.  

Even if every single person worked as hard as they could it is impossible for every person to have a well paying job.  There are always going to be a lot of people working in low paying jobs even if every single person had a graduate degree.

The claim that everyone can succeed is a total lie.  It is completely impossible for everyone to be on top because there will always be a limited number of positions on the top and a large number of positions in the middle and lower classes.

So you're essentially admitting that Bernie's entire campaign message is a lie?

Thanks for clearing that up. 

[6andcounting]

This is definitely my favorite thread on this new board and I don't think that will change anytime soon.

[fredtoast]

(08-11-2015, 06:24 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: So you're essentially admitting that Bernie's entire campaign message is a lie?

Thanks for clearing that up. 

Strawman of the year award.

I knew you wouldn't have any serious response to the truth.

Bernie and I agree that it is impossible for everyone to be on top. That is why we both feel that social programs are so important.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 10:04 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Strawman of the year award.

I knew you wouldn't have any serious response to the truth.

Bernie and I agree that it is impossible for everyone to be on top.  That is why we both feel that social programs are so important.

And I'd say that you and Bernie are equally ignorant. 

If socialism works so great, then please explain why the Great Society programs have failed?  Are programs like head start, section 8 housing, welfare, medicaid, food stamps, and so many other socialistic welfare programs not designed to level the playing field and get people out of poverty? 

If so, why are they not working? 

You essentially admitted in your previous post that no matter what we do, we're always going to have rich and poor.  That's what I referenced when I stated that you and Bernie's take on the matter was an admission that all of this stuff was nonsense, which of course it is.

You and the other liberal elitist are more than welcome to send in 90% of your earnings to the IRS every year, if you believe it's the right thing to do.  

[fredtoast]

(08-12-2015, 11:41 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: If socialism works so great, then please explain why the Great Society programs have failed?  Are programs like head start, section 8 housing, welfare, medicaid, food stamps, and so many other socialistic welfare programs not designed to level the playing field and get people out of poverty? 

If so, why are they not working? 

The social programs you listed have worked.  They are the reason we do not have millions of people living in filthy ghettos like India and many other third world countries.

Based on your logic we should do away with doctors and medicine.  they have been around for years yet we are still getting sick.  I guess that means they are a failure.

[fredtoast]

(08-12-2015, 11:41 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: You essentially admitted in your previous post that no matter what we do, we're always going to have rich and poor.  That's what I referenced when I stated that you and Bernie's take on the matter was an admission that all of this stuff was nonsense, which of course it is.

None of it is nonsense.  It is reality.  What is nonsense is your position that if everyone works hard then there will be no low paying jobs.

People who face reality know that we need a capitalist system to promote efficiency and progress.  But we also know that unregulated capitalism leads to a tiny wealthy elite class with all the money and power.  So the question is what social programs should be implemented to make sure that people who work hard have a decent living.  There will always be an upper class and a lower class.  But the upper class can not exist without the lower class, so the lower class should not be forced to suffer in abject poverty.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-12-2015, 12:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: None of it is nonsense.  It is reality.  What is nonsense is your position that if everyone works hard then there will be no low paying jobs.

People who face reality know that we need a capitalist system to promote efficiency and progress.  But we also know that unregulated capitalism leads to a tiny wealthy elite class with all the money and power.  So the question is what social programs should be implemented to make sure that people who work hard have a decent living.  There will always be an upper class and a lower class.  But the upper class can not exist without the lower class, so the lower class should not be forced to suffer in abject poverty.

I know very few poor people that don't suffer from one, if not all of the following:

1) Laziness
2) Poor decision-making
3) Drug/alcohol abuse (which could be tied to number 2, I suppose)

We can't regulate those things, no matter how much we'd like to.  I'd rather be poor here than in any country in the world.  The vast majority of our poor have a house or apartment, a car, cable TV, internet, food, clothing, and health care. 

I personally think we should stop making it so comfortable for people in poverty, personally.  We do.  I'm in HR, and while working my way through the ranks of this company, I spent some time in lower-management and worked with a lot of the lower class.  I had people that passed up promotions and more hours because they would lose benefits.  Yes, you heard that right.  We have a system that discourages people from being promoted or working more hours. 

That's insanity, and quite a reflection on what these programs are really designed to do.  Keep these people on the dole, because their vote means more than their quality of life and self-respect.  It's essentially perpetual self-induced slavery.  

[fredtoast]

(08-12-2015, 12:43 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: I know very few poor people that don't suffer from one, if not all of the following:

1) Laziness
2) Poor decision-making
3) Drug/alcohol abuse (which could be tied to number 2, I suppose)

We can't regulate those things, no matter how much we'd like to.  I'd rather be poor here than in any country in the world.  The vast majority of our poor have a house or apartment, a car, cable TV, internet, food, clothing, and health care. 

I personally think we should stop making it so comfortable for people in poverty, personally.  We do.  I'm in HR, and while working my way through the ranks of this company, I spent some time in lower-management and worked with a lot of the lower class.  I had people that passed up promotions and more hours because they would lose benefits.  Yes, you heard that right.  We have a system that discourages people from being promoted or working more hours. 

That's insanity, and quite a reflection on what these programs are really designed to do.  Keep these people on the dole, because their vote means more than their quality of life and self-respect.  It's essentially perpetual self-induced slavery.  

Your logic fails because even if every poor person worked as hard as possible there would still be only a limited number of well paying jobs.  That is the way the system is set up.

The claim that if every person worked hard then every person would be rich defies reality.  It is impossible.  the system does not allow that to happen.