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(09-15-2020, 11:59 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The idea of saying the party of Trump has "class" is laughable by itself, but I will add this to your list:
the recent protests in Oregon saw Trump supporters indiscriminately shooting people on the streets with paintballs while spraying mace and throwing canisters of chemical irritants.
SERIOUSLY?!
I can't believe the things you continuously post.
It's part a typical liberal and part just because you think I'm stupid.
You call them "protests" while acting like they were outside of the government building with signs when really they were looting stores and hurting people. They come out with intentions of destroying property and hurting people, but it's a crime to take action in defense?
Here's a Trump supporter shot dead in your "peaceful protests."
It was a Trump rally and it says that people were throwing rocks, but it doesn't say which side was throwing/shooting first, which is a typical left-wing tactic because it makes it sound like Trump supporters were riding around in their trucks looking for people to shoot with paintballs, when that obviously wasn't the case, or do you think they showed up to a Trump rally just hoping that Biden supporters would be there to shoot with their paintball guns and mace?
Please note that I haven't broken any rules in this post for people who will complain to the mods to try and get me suspended because they have no response.
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(09-15-2020, 01:44 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: SERIOUSLY?!
I can't believe the things you continuously post.
It's part a typical liberal and part just because you think I'm stupid.
You call them "protests" while acting like they were outside of the government building with signs when really they were looting stores and hurting people. They come out with intentions of destroying property and hurting people, but it's a crime to take action in defense?
Here's a Trump supporter shot dead in your "peaceful protests."
It was a Trump rally and it says that people were throwing rocks, but it doesn't say which side was throwing/shooting first, which is a typical left-wing tactic because it makes it sound like Trump supporters were riding around in their trucks looking for people to shoot with paintballs, when that obviously wasn't the case, or do you think they showed up to a Trump rally just hoping that Biden supporters would be there to shoot with their paintball guns and mace?
Please note that I haven't broken any rules in this post for people who will complain to the mods to try and get me suspended because they have no response.
I don't think you're stupid. I just know that you're not very well informed on politics, so I try to help you out considering that I've been teaching the subject for a decade.
The protests I was referring to were Trump supporter demonstrations. They were met by counter protestors. There's videos of them yelling before someone on the Trump supporter side starts shooting paintballs and then someone on that side sprays mace.
There's other videos of trucks driving through the streets shooting paintballs and at the counter protestors.
Glad I could help.
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(09-15-2020, 01:25 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: See, i'm not calling anybody on either side names or insinuating that either side is classless.
You pick out some people shooting paintballs and using irritants, assume they are Trump supporters instead of possibly people sick of the BS and then ignore all the human suffering caused by the violent mob for over 100 days now. What exactly are they protesting again? I don't even know at this point. Maybe they just hate their own community and want to burn it down? CHOP? 2 killed not by Trump supporters.
In summary: Anyone who supports Trump is classless and a few people shooting paintballs and using irritants (bad people) vs over 100 days of arson, death, violence and anarchy that have destroyed peoples livelihoods (Peaceful protesters). Seems fair.
Just to be clear, they were at a pro Trump demonstration, they had Trump flags, and they later posted online in support of him. If a truck drives around with giant Trump flags, it's safe to call the people in it Trump supporters.
I'm also not ignoring anything. Someone said Trump supporters don't do something, so I posted another example of them doing it.
Seems fair?
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Trump responded to the use of paintballs against random people by saying "paint is a defensive mechanism. Paint is not bullets".
He went on to say that the other side killed someone before defending Kyle Rittenhouse who killed two people.
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(09-15-2020, 01:57 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Those are individuals or a few individuals, how does that compare to mobs of people doing things like knocking hats off people harassing people, beating people, looting and rioting?
This is bad debating. Here's some tips:
You responded to a post about Conservatives and the media by saying that Conservatives have "more class" because Liberals knock off Trump hats and pull up signs, which didn't make any sense to begin with.
Then when someone challenged that with evidence you took it from individuals knocking off hats to "mobs of people" and "looting and rioting". This is called moving goalposts.
When you dismiss direct evidence that challenges your point by applying uneven standards to "your side", it makes your arguments weak, especially when your argument typically ends with something along the lines of "if Trump did that, the media would freak out", implying that you believe an unequal standard exists.
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(09-15-2020, 01:53 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Just to be clear, they were at a pro Trump demonstration, they had Trump flags, and they later posted online in support of him. If a truck drives around with giant Trump flags, it's safe to call the people in it Trump supporters.
I'm also not ignoring anything. Someone said Trump supporters don't do something, so I posted another example of them doing it.
Seems fair?
Fair enough.
It is interesting though how nothing is ever posted about the Riots?
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(09-15-2020, 02:06 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This is bad debating. Here's some tips:
You responded to a post about Conservatives and the media by saying that Conservatives have "more class" because Liberals knock off Trump hats and pull up signs, which didn't make any sense to begin with.
Then when someone challenged that with evidence you took it from individuals knocking off hats to "mobs of people" and "looting and rioting". This is called moving goalposts.
When you dismiss direct evidence that challenges your point by applying uneven standards to "your side", it makes your arguments weak, especially when your argument typically ends with something along the lines of "if Trump did that, the media would freak out", implying that you believe an unequal standard exists.
Liberals assault people and try to intimidate them.
That's not moving goalposts because you're saying all is bad when I'm saying some is a lot worse.
It's like saying that murder is worse than shoplifting is moving the goalposts.
Mobs of people aren't peacefully protesting, especially when they attack Trump supporters, and they wouldn't show up if they didn't intend to start trouble because they would otherwise leave when the people started "randomly" shooting paintballs at them. Logic tells you that shooting was in the response to rocks being thrown at the truck because how else would they know who is a Trump supporter and who is there to protest?
When you ignore evidence and logic, it makes your argument weak.
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(09-15-2020, 01:05 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Bold 4. From what I have read and listened to on the Breona Taylor case, it appears that everything was legal and legit.
That is probably because the only news source you listen to is from your own side.
An Officer was fired a long time ago because of his screw up and the city just agreed to pay $12 million to her family for their screw up.
The police used outdated information to get a "no knock" warrant.
The police claimed they announced themselves as police officers before breaking down the door and starting to shoot, but lots of neighbors called 911 and not a single one of them, even the next door neighbor just a few feet away, claimed they heard anyone say they were the police.
The police then tried to argue that the guy in the apartment who returned fire should be held without bond because he was such a threat to the community, but all he did was try to defend the apartment from strange men busting down his door.
The officer that was fired showed no regard for human life and some of his shots even went into to neighboring apartments.
And, finally, the District Attorney tried to cover the damage by offering the drug dealer who was the target of the operation a plea deal if he would implicate Breonna Taylor in criminal activity. The defendant refused and the plea offer went public.
If the police and District Attorney had been truthful from the beginning then they could have avoided a lot of this mess.
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(09-15-2020, 02:21 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Fair enough.
It is interesting though how nothing is ever posted about the Riots?
We have at least 4 threads about rioting, they just may not be named directly. Part of it is that over 90% of protests have been peaceful. Nearly everyone condemns the violence, but the arguments come up over whether that should be the focus over the legitimate protesting of the 90+%
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(09-15-2020, 04:04 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Logic tells you that shooting was in the response to rocks being thrown at the truck because how else would they know who is a Trump supporter and who is there to protest?
I don't follow. How do you think the rock throwers were able to identify the Trump supporters?
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(09-15-2020, 04:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't follow. How do you think the rock throwers were able to identify the Trump supporters?
They were the only ones there not it Birkenstocks
"Throw rocks at anyone with a closed toe shoe"
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(09-15-2020, 04:04 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Liberals assault people and try to intimidate them.
That's not moving goalposts because you're saying all is bad when I'm saying some is a lot worse.
It's like saying that murder is worse than shoplifting is moving the goalposts.
Mobs of people aren't peacefully protesting, especially when they attack Trump supporters, and they wouldn't show up if they didn't intend to start trouble because they would otherwise leave when the people started "randomly" shooting paintballs at them. Logic tells you that shooting was in the response to rocks being thrown at the truck because how else would they know who is a Trump supporter and who is there to protest?
You said conservatives aren't doing things like pulling up signs, so Benton supplied a list of them doing much worse. You then said "well they're not looting and rioting", which was not part of the initial argument.
That's moving goal posts. This isn't a debate as I am telling you a fact.
![[Image: Moving_the_Goalposts.jpg]](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/uy/accounts/wwwlogicallyfallaciouscom/library-public/Moving_the_Goalposts.jpg)
Quote:When you ignore evidence and logic, it makes your argument weak.
Which is what you do when you excuse the behavior of Donald Trump slurring or mispronouncing words in a speech during a thread where you suggest that the same behavior from Biden is dementia.
That's also called a double standard.
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(09-15-2020, 04:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't follow. How do you think the rock throwers were able to identify the Trump supporters?
Probably because they had flags on their trucks, they were driving into the rally or parked there, had Trump shirts, or any number of any other possibilities.
Was that a real question?
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(09-15-2020, 04:22 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Probably because they had flags on their trucks, they were driving into the rally or parked there, had Trump shirts, or any number of any other possibilities.
Was that a real question?
Yeah, sorry, I misread your comment.
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(09-15-2020, 04:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is probably because the only news source you listen to is from your own side.
An Officer was fired a long time ago because of his screw up and the city just agreed to pay $12 million to her family for their screw up.
The police used outdated information to get a "no knock" warrant.
The police claimed they announced themselves as police officers before breaking down the door and starting to shoot, but lots of neighbors called 911 and not a single one of them, even the next door neighbor just a few feet away, claimed they heard anyone say they were the police.
The police then tried to argue that the guy in the apartment who returned fire should be held without bond because he was such a threat to the community, but all he did was try to defend the apartment from strange men busting down his door.
The officer that was fired showed no regard for human life and some of his shots even went into to neighboring apartments.
And, finally, the District Attorney tried to cover the damage by offering the drug dealer who was the target of the operation a plea deal if he would implicate Breonna Taylor in criminal activity. The defendant refused and the plea offer went public.
If the police and District Attorney had been truthful from the beginning then they could have avoided a lot of this mess.
I try to get news from different sources, but thanks for assuming. 
You don't have to announce if you have a no knock warrant. Maybe they lied about announcing, but they didn't have to.
Just because there was a settlement doesn't mean it was justified. Lot's of times it's just easier, especially if the public is whipped up into a tizzy.
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(09-15-2020, 01:57 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Those are sick individuals or a few sick individuals, so how does that compare to mobs of people doing things like knocking hats off people, harassing people, beating people, looting and rioting?
I haven't seen mobs of people knocking off hats. I've seen an individual or three knock hats off during large confrontations. Usually, I don't see any context.
But the thing is, the rioting and looting and massive groups aren't all protesting trump. Some, sure. But it's not fair to say everything in this country is pro trump or anti trump. Likewise, it's not fair to say either side has the market cornered in disrespectful, self centered, or violent members.
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(09-15-2020, 01:25 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: See, i'm not calling anybody on either side names or insinuating that either side is classless.
You pick out some people shooting paintballs and using irritants, assume they are Trump supporters instead of possibly people sick of the BS and then ignore all the human suffering caused by the violent mob for over 100 days now. What exactly are they protesting again? I don't even know at this point. Maybe they just hate their own community and want to burn it down? CHOP? 2 killed not by Trump supporters.
In summary: Anyone who supports Trump is classless and a few people shooting paintballs and using irritants (bad people) vs over 100 days of arson, death, violence and anarchy that have destroyed peoples livelihoods (Peaceful protesters). Seems fair.
Just as a side note--I don't think you are calling anyone names, Mickey.
So far you have been very civil, and even if I disagree with some of what you say, I do appreciate the care you take to avoid unnecessarily denigrating those who disagree with you. If you are a Trump supporter then certainly not all Trump supporters are classless. Same goes for other T-supporters in the forum who keep their cool.
We need to keep our criticisms directed at stuff happening outside the forum, not at each other. That said, it is ok to question whether Trump has "class," if he says and does things like call women ugly or refer to some countries as "shitholes." That is not attacking people who have not made those comments.
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(09-15-2020, 07:41 PM)Dill Wrote: Just as a side note--I don't think you are calling anyone names, Mickey.
So far you have been very civil, and even if I disagree with some of what you say, I do appreciate the care you take to avoid unnecessarily denigrating those who disagree with you. If you are a Trump supporter then certainly not all Trump supporters are classless. Same goes for other T-supporters in the forum who keep their cool.
We need to keep our criticisms directed at stuff happening outside the forum, not at each other. That said, it is ok to question whether Trump has "class," if he says and does things like call women ugly or refer to some countries as "shitholes." That is not attacking people who have not made those comments.
Agreed and thanks. :)
And another lunatic tries to assassinate another cop. This crap HAS to stop. Neither Trump nor Biden is the devil, evil, hitler, a dictator, etc, etc. Can't we all just come together as AMERICANS. FFS!!!!!!
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(09-15-2020, 01:05 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Bold 1. You took what he said literally, I didn't.
So did Dr. Birx. And Trump didn’t correct her for taking him literally. What are the context clues that suggests he was speaking allegorically? I’m surprised that a guy who says exactly what he means so rarely, if ever, means what he says.
Quote:Bold 2. I believe in opening fully with no masks or social distancing. A huge percentage of deaths are from the elderly and/or people with underlying health conditions. Very few healthy people with no comorbitities are actually dying from just Covid. That 194,000 number may very well be inflated also, based on how some Covid deaths are reported. A nurse I know told me to my face that they have seen first hand deaths not related to Covid, but where the patient tested positive for Covid and it was marked as a Covid death. We need to keep the at risk part of the population safe while letting the rest of the people get back to normal. This was blown way out of proportion for political reasons. That's my opinion.
Despite steps to contain the pandemic and protect the high risk we have almost 200,000 dead. What do you think will happen when we stop trying to contain it?
I don’t agree with your suggestion, but I’m willing to change my mind if you have data to support current infectious disease controls. Do you?
Quote:Unbolded. I cannot comment as I do not know enough about those situations.
That’s fair.
Quote:Bold 3. Can you please explain?
Is this in relation to asking why do we have monuments to traitors? If you take up arms or conspire with the enemy against the country their shouldn’t be monuments honoring your treason.
Quote:Bold 4. From what I have read and listened to on the Breona Taylor case, it appears that everything was legal and legit. Shots were fired from inside at the cops through the closed door first and they returned fire accidentally hitting Breona. I also believe that it has been proven that she was receiving drug packages at her apartment, but don't quote me on that. So no, no outrage on that one. Whoever shot at the cops and caused them to return fire is who the outrage should be directed at. Ben Shapiro had a really good segment talking about this case.
Kenny Walker, licensed and legal gun owner shot first. He has the legal right to shoot an intruder. The police have a legal right to self-defense. The police claim they announced themselves, but Walker disputes that. There is the chance he is lying. There is also the chance he really didn’t hear them when startled out of sleep at almost 1 am.
But, as of tonight the city of Louisville has reached a settlement with her family and pledged to change police practices.
Quote:George Floyd. Sort of. Two rookie cops I believe and another keeping the crowd back. Chauvin is just a piece of s@!t who should have been fired long ago. Floyd is also a piece of s!@t criminal who should have been in jail. Floyd was involved in drug abuse, theft, criminal trespassing, aggravated robbery as well as entering a woman’s home and pointing a gun at her stomach while looking for drugs and money. So, no, not nearly as much outrage on that one. Also watching the whole video shows the cops were decent at the beginning and that Floyd was acting kinda crazy and was uncooperative, plus a screaming mob of lunatics doesn't help you to think clearly. That's a lot different than two innocent cops doing nothing wrong almost being executed. I would like to know where the outrage is over all the black on black killings is? Chicago strictest gun laws? That is the real danger for the black community. 90% of all black murders are by other blacks. We need to fix that.
Neither of those cases has any proof that race was a motivating factor.
The police had Floyd handcuffed and in the vehicle before they removed from the vehicle and kneeled on his neck until they killed him. Floyd’s criminal history and actions that night didn’t warrant death.
Quote:Bold 4. I get what Trump was trying to do and I am personally ok with it. It just doesn't bother me. I have read up on the steps that they have taken since January and I believe Trump and his admin have done a very good job. This was an unprecedented situation. My opinion. Not looking to argue about it. Again, not a huge Trump supporter. I read what I could find from different sources and believe they did a good job.
If I told you that you had an infection, but down played it so you would think it was less serious than I knew it to be and you subsequently died, I’d be guilty of malpractice. Trump is essentially guilty of malpractice, figuratively, on a national level.
I’m not okay with that and it does bother me.
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