Biden now calling for Israel to pause???

[Luvnit2]

FYI, Israel continues making huge gestures to help Palestinians get to safety. Why has Hamas done to help their people that were voted in to protect them?
https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/november-11-israel-hamas-war

IDF expands hours for civilian corridor as Palestinians flee northern Gaza
The Israel Defense Forces are expanding the length of humanitarian pauses in their Gaza offensive as thousands of Palestinians flee south. Israel said it neutralized terrorist cells, took control of 11 Hamas posts, located and destroyed an underground terrorist tunnel route, struck Hamas weapons storage facilities and struck military targets inside the Al-Shati Camp over the past 24 hours.

The Israel Defense Forces said Saturday it is expanding its four-hour pauses in fighting to seven hours to allow more Palestinians to flee south.


IDF Arabic-language spokesman Lt. Col. Avichay Adraee posted on X that the Salah al-Din road will be open for civilians to travel south from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. local time. "Please, for your safety, join the hundreds of thousand s of residents who have moved south in recent days, including some senior media figures, as we want to protect you," Adraee said. 

Adraee said Palestinians will also be allowed to evacuate southward along a coastal road on the Gaza Strip. 

He said there will also be "tactical pauses in military activities" in the Jabalia refugee camp on Saturday between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. local time so that residents can move to a humanitarian corridor and evacuate south. 

[Dill]

(11-11-2023, 12:54 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: FYI, Israel continues making huge gestures to help Palestinians get to safety. Why has Hamas done to help their people that were voted in to protect them?
https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/november-11-israel-hamas-war

Er, Israel's "huge gestures" are in response to international pressure and direct pressure from the US. They and many of our own right wingers don't think worry about civilians should impede their war.  https://www.newsweek.com/republican-calls-all-palestinians-die-viral-video-1842599

Palestinians are afraid to flee south because of the stories of refugees being struck from the road.  Aid workers say NO PLACE is safe in Gaza.  

Hamas, and probably a number of Gaza residents, would say that Hamas has "helped their people" by carrying the fight to Israel. 

They've never been able to protect the imprisoned population from Israeli air power and rockets.

Why are you so concerned about what Hamas has done FOR Palestinians, but not about what Israelis have done TO them? 
There would be no Hamas if Israel had not dispossessed Palestinians and penned them occupied territories.   

[GMDino]

(11-11-2023, 12:54 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: FYI, Israel continues making huge gestures to help Palestinians get to safety. Why has Hamas done to help their people that were voted in to protect them?
https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/november-11-israel-hamas-war

IDF expands hours for civilian corridor as Palestinians flee northern Gaza
The Israel Defense Forces are expanding the length of humanitarian pauses in their Gaza offensive as thousands of Palestinians flee south. Israel said it neutralized terrorist cells, took control of 11 Hamas posts, located and destroyed an underground terrorist tunnel route, struck Hamas weapons storage facilities and struck military targets inside the Al-Shati Camp over the past 24 hours.

The Israel Defense Forces said Saturday it is expanding its four-hour pauses in fighting to seven hours to allow more Palestinians to flee south.


IDF Arabic-language spokesman Lt. Col. Avichay Adraee posted on X that the Salah al-Din road will be open for civilians to travel south from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. local time. "Please, for your safety, join the hundreds of thousand s of residents who have moved south in recent days, including some senior media figures, as we want to protect you," Adraee said. 

Adraee said Palestinians will also be allowed to evacuate southward along a coastal road on the Gaza Strip. 

He said there will also be "tactical pauses in military activities" in the Jabalia refugee camp on Saturday between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. local time so that residents can move to a humanitarian corridor and evacuate south. 

Palestine, according to Google, is about 185 miles from North to South.

For reference Florida is about 160 miles wide.

So what I want you to do is back up everything you own, bring your family and start walking.  You have seven hours to get as far away from the bombing as possible.  Again...walk.

The average human walking speed, again from Google, is about three MPH.  So if you're not to bogged down with things you need to live/survive and everyone in your family is healthy and walked at the same speed and you don't stop for the entire seven hours you can get around 21 miles.

Using Jacksonville as an example, which is not on the coast so you have a little head start, this is how far you would get.


Are you far enough away from the fighting and bombing?  Who knows.  But you had seven hours!  

Now you DO get seven hours PER DAY.  So how long would it take to get to the other coast and safety?

140/21 = 6.6
That is using Jacksonville as a starting point approximately 20 miles from the east coast.

You could complete the trip in one week if you never stopped during those seven hours for seven days.  And that is the least amount of time it would take.

In the meantime you never know if you made it far enough to avoid being killed in a fight, by your own people, or bombing or if they decided to bomb just a little further south that day.  Or if that's the day they didn't give you a full seven hours.

That is why so many asked for a cease-fire.  To allow the innocent people a chance to get to safety.  This compromise helps but it is not the grand gesture you seem to be making it out to be.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-12-2023, 02:12 PM)Dill Wrote: Why are you so concerned about what Hamas has done FOR Palestinians, but not about what Israelis have done TO them? 
There would be no Hamas if Israel had not dispossessed Palestinians and penned them occupied territories.   

And here is the apologist rearing his ugly head again.  Hamas wouldn't have to murder and rape Israelis if they weren't forced to by evil Israel.  I've been in this forum long enough to recognize the pattern.  Dill excuses atrocities of Muslim extremists, citing how their behavior is the fault of someone else, e.g. Israel, The US or western policies in general.  Then when called on the fact that he always mitigates, and never condemns their atrocities he gets upset and claims to be viewing the situation from a rational perspective.  No one is buying it, dude.  You've exposed yourself.

[Luvnit2]

(11-12-2023, 02:12 PM)Dill Wrote: Er, Israel's "huge gestures" are in response to international pressure and direct pressure from the US. They and many of our own right wingers don't think worry about civilians should impede their war.  https://www.newsweek.com/republican-calls-all-palestinians-die-viral-video-1842599

Palestinians are afraid to flee south because of the stories of refugees being struck from the road.  Aid workers say NO PLACE is safe in Gaza.  

Hamas, and probably a number of Gaza residents, would say that Hamas has "helped their people" by carrying the fight to Israel. 

They've never been able to protect the imprisoned population from Israeli air power and rockets.

Why are you so concerned about what Hamas has done FOR Palestinians, but not about what Israelis have done TO them? 
There would be no Hamas if Israel had not dispossessed Palestinians and penned them occupied territories.   

Hamas created this war, not 50 years ago, but o October 7. Hamas had no plan to protect the people they are supposed to protect.

Simple, Hamas atrocities created a war, war is ugly. One side Israel continues to help get innocent civilians out of harms way when possible. Hamas cntinue to bomb innocent civilians in Israel and hold women, elderly, children and babies hostage.

It amazes me you continue to blame Israel after October 7th, war was a very appropriate response.

[*pally*]

Oct 7 was another battle in a war that started in 1948.

[Dill]

(11-13-2023, 12:50 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Hamas created this war, not 50 years ago, but o October 7. Hamas had no plan to protect the people they are supposed to protect.

Simple, Hamas atrocities created a war, war is ugly. One side Israel continues to help get innocent civilians out of harms way when possible. Hamas cntinue to bomb innocent civilians in Israel and hold women, elderly, children and babies hostage.

It amazes me you continue to blame Israel after October 7th, war was a very appropriate response.

Whoever drove Palestinians off their land and bottled them up in Gaza started this war.

Stop imputing a defense of Hamas to me. They are the right wing of Palestinian resistance. Their pronouncements on Jews
mirror the pronouncements of right wing Israeli politicians on Palestinians--get rid of them. I don't support any right wing
governments/organizations on any side in any war. I support the secular democrats.

It's not Hamas bombing and killing all those civilians. And there is no way they can protect civilians from Israel.
That's the problem that created Hamas. 

[Luvnit2]

(11-13-2023, 03:24 PM)pally Wrote: Oct 7 was another battle in a war that started in 1948.

Show one time in history Israel killed over 1400 civilians. You expect Israel to follow rules of wars, yet Hamas who never declared war and beheaded babies among their atrocities against elderly, women, children and babies killed without warning. These civilians who died and are being held hostage did nothing wrong.

Israel declared war but is cautiously moving through Gaza to minimize civilian casualties. Hamas has no regard fro human life including for Palestinians. There is video of them firing hand held rockets and grenades as people try to flee south to safety. There is definitive proof tunnels are built under children's bedrooms. They are using the largest hospital in Gaza as a human shield to protect Hamas fighters, not Palestinians.

Just today Hamas refused fuel to start the hospital generators.

I will ask you again, what has Hamas done to protect Palestinian or Israel civilians during the war declared by Israel? Is Hamas using the terms of engagement? If not, why should Israel be expected to use the terms of engagements? They do anyway, they are using the terms of engagement.

War is an ugly thing and why Hamas never should have started it.
 

[Dill]

(11-12-2023, 03:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: And here is the apologist rearing his ugly head again.  Hamas wouldn't have to murder and rape Israelis if they weren't forced to by evil Israel.  I've been in this forum long enough to recognize the pattern.  Dill excuses atrocities of Muslim extremists, citing how their behavior is the fault of someone else, e.g. Israel, The US or western policies in general.  Then when called on the fact that he always mitigates, and never condemns their atrocities he gets upset and claims to be viewing the situation from a rational perspective.  No one is buying it, dude.  You've exposed yourself.

Sounds like the apologist for dispossession and military occupation has reared his ugly head again, and still speaking for everyone.

So it's not "evil" to drive people off their land with violence, rapine and terror, and then hold them and their 
descendants under military occupation for generations, flouting international law? At least not when Israelis do it? 

You present forum members with two choices--

1) validate the dispossession of Palestinians and military occupation of what land remains to them,

2) or be cast as an Israel-hating anti-semite. 

Whoever agrees with you on that abandons universal equality of rights as a premise for international law. 

[Luvnit2]

(11-13-2023, 05:47 PM)Dill Wrote: Whoever drove Palestinians off their land and bottled them up in Gaza started this war.

Stop imputing a defense of Hamas to me. They are the right wing of Palestinian resistance. Their pronouncements on Jews
mirror the pronouncements of right wing Israeli politicians on Palestinians--get rid of them. I don't support any right wing
governments/organizations on any side in any war. I support the secular democrats.

It's not Hamas bombing and killing all those civilians. And there is no way they can protect civilians from Israel.
That's the problem that created Hamas. 

Hamas was voted in. Hamas's and a lot of Muslims in Syria, Iran and Iraq constantly chant death to America, death to Israel. That is common knowledge, we have Jews surrounded by states that want them extinguished. 

You say the far right in Israel want to kill every Palestinian and Muslim in the middle east. Please provide the link:
1. There is a far right in Israel and who are they and what is their charter.
2. Is there also a far left or are you just making crap up?
3. Please show me anything your supposedly far right has down to kill mass innocent civilians in Gaza or anywhere in the middle east.

[Luvnit2]

(11-13-2023, 06:01 PM)Dill Wrote: Sounds like the apologist for dispossession and military occupation has reared his ugly head again, and still speaking for everyone.

So it's not "evil" to drive people off their land with violence, rapine and terror, and then hold them and their 
descendants under military occupation for generations, flouting international law? At least not when Israelis do it? 

You present forum members with two choices--

1) validate the dispossession of Palestinians and military occupation of what land remains to them,

2) or be cast as an Israel-hating anti-semite. 

Whoever agrees with you on that abandons universal equality of rights as a premise for international law. 

I guess it would be OK for the Indians on the reservation to start beheading babies in America in your world??????

[Dill]

(11-13-2023, 05:59 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Show one time in history Israel killed over 1400 civilians. You expect Israel to follow rules of wars, yet Hamas who never declared war and beheaded babies among their atrocities against elderly, women, children and babies killed without warning. These civilians who died and are being held hostage did nothing wrong.

Israel declared war but is cautiously moving through Gaza to minimize civilian casualties. Hamas has no regard fro human life including for Palestinians. There is video of them firing hand held rockets and grenades as people try to flee south to safety. There is definitive proof tunnels are built under children's bedrooms. They are using the largest hospital in Gaza as a human shield to protect Hamas fighters, not Palestinians.

Just today Hamas refused fuel to start the hospital generators.

I will ask you again, what has Hamas done to protect Palestinian or Israel civilians during the war declared by Israel? Is Hamas using the terms of engagement? If not, why should Israel be expected to use the terms of engagements? They do anyway, they are using the terms of engagement.

War is an ugly thing and why Hamas never should have started it.

I think I can show you multiple times. Here, check out these graphics from the United Nations office of Humanitarian Affairs. It tracks the many thousands of civilians killed since 2008. Casualties from the current war--11,000 civilian dead as of today--have not been added. 
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

CNBC puts the number of Palestinian dead since 2008 (mostly civilians) at 18, 600+ 
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/12/israel-hamas-war-data-shows-human-cost-of-conflict-through-the-years.html#:~:text=The%20data%20collated%20by%20CNBC,conflicts%20with%20Israel%20since%202008.

If Israel is "cautiously moving through Gaza to minimize civilian casualties," then why is the international community in such
an uproar about the deaths of civilians. 4,000 children dead already. Entire families wiped out. 
Why do virtually all Americans who don't watch Fox approve of a cease fire? 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/reuters-next-un-chief-says-gaza-deaths-show-something-wrong-with-israel-2023-11-08/
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/07/us/politics/israel-gaza-war-death-toll-civilians.html
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/11/1212326333/proportionality-israel-gaza-war-war-crimes#:~:text=Israel%20is%20coming%20under%20mounting,civilians%20is%20a%20war%20crime.



PS what is your source for the beheaded babies? I've asked that before. Are you holding yourself
to the standard to which you hold the NYT? 

[GMDino]

(11-13-2023, 06:07 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Hamas was voted in. Hamas's and a lot of Muslims in Syria, Iran and Iraq constantly chant death to America, death to Israel. That is common knowledge, we have Jews surrounded by states that want them extinguished. 

You say the far right in Israel want to kill every Palestinian and Muslim in the middle east. Please provide the link:
1. There is a far right in Israel and who are they and want is their charter.
2. Is there also a far left or are you just making crap up?
3. Please show me anything your supposedly far right has down to kill mass innocent civilians in Gaza or anywhere in the middle east.

Putin was voted in.
Erdogan hasn't lost an election in decades.

Hamas won and never held elections again.

Please stop acting like the citizens want terrorists leading them.  


That is republican party. 

[Dill]

(11-13-2023, 06:08 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I guess it would be OK for the Indians on the reservation to start beheading babies in America in your world??????

Sure. That's what anyone would conclude from my defense of universal human rights.

I used to live on the Crow reservation in MT. Native Americans are American citizens who can vote, run for office, 
and travel where they will with no more restriction than you or I have. They can join the US military, since the 
US is their country too. 

There were no walls and barbed wire around that reservation, either, or any other I have been on.
So not much motivation to behead babies--though its not clear that anyone anywhere actually does that.
https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2023/hamas-behaded-babies-israel-unconfirmed-reports-spread/

But imagine there WERE walls and wire, and Indians could not vote or leave without permission,  or join
the military, and it had been that way for generations. Imagine the US had a "right to defend itself"
if ever they tried to break out of their prison. Then maybe your analogy to Gaza holds.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-13-2023, 06:01 PM)Dill Wrote: Sounds like the apologist for dispossession and military occupation has reared his ugly head again, and still speaking for everyone.

So it's not "evil" to drive people off their land with violence, rapine and terror, and then hold them and their 
descendants under military occupation for generations, flouting international law? At least not when Israelis do it? 

You present forum members with two choices--

1) validate the dispossession of Palestinians and military occupation of what land remains to them,

2) or be cast as an Israel-hating anti-semite. 

Whoever agrees with you on that abandons universal equality of rights as a premise for international law. 

Incorrect on every level.  I have stated, repeatedly, in this very forum that Israel is far from innocent.  They have engaged in morally reprehensible behavior in the past and likely will do so in the future.  What I do not do is excuse, mitigate or attempt to justify away the wanton rape and murder conducted by a terrorist organization.  Many people have criticized Israel in this subforum, often rightfully so.  What no one but you does is continually argue in Hamas's favor by excusing or justifying their behavior.  I have also said repeatedly that I'm not the biggest fan of Israel's foreign policy, coincidentally in a thread on the subject before 10/07/23.  I will repeat my point from there, your position on this subject is so massively biased against Israel that any fair minded person would call you out for it.  I don't know if you're an antisemite, but you sure spend a lot of time excusing terrorists ands ignoring their stated objective is the annihilation of Israel and the Jews who reside there.  And you are literally the only one I would make that statement about on this board.

[Luvnit2]

(11-13-2023, 06:19 PM)Dill Wrote:

PS what is your source for the beheaded babies? I've asked that before. Are you holding yourself
to the standard to which you hold the NYT? 

U.S. President Joseph Biden had suggested on Wednesday that he had seen images of children beheaded by militants.


Does POTUS Joe Biden count?


Or this soldier?
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231027-israeli-officer-says-he-found-baby-beheaded-in-hamas-attack



Colonel Golan Vach, head of the military search and rescue service, told AFP he saw the body of a mother protecting a baby while searching debris at the Beeri kibbutz three days after the attacks.



"When I pulled it over I saw a decapitated baby. I took it up with my hands and I carried it, and I put it in the body bag. I personally did it," he said while on a media tour of another kibbutz organised by the military.



But by all means keep defending Hamas who also burned babies alive and also beheaded women. All has been confirmed.

[GMDino]

(11-13-2023, 06:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Incorrect on every level.  I have stated, repeatedly, in this very forum that Israel is far from innocent.  They have engaged in morally reprehensible behavior in the past and likely will do so in the future.  What I do not do is excuse, mitigate or attempt to justify away the wanton rape and murder conducted by a terrorist organization.  Many people have criticized Israel in this subforum, often rightfully so.  What no one but you does is continually argue in Hamas's favor by excusing or justifying their behavior.  I have also said repeatedly that I'm not the biggest fan of Israel's foreign policy, coincidentally in a thread on the subject before 10/07/23.  I will repeat my point from there, your position on this subject is so massively biased against Israel that any fair minded person would call you out for it.  I don't know if you're an antisemite, but you sure spend a lot of time excusing terrorists ands ignoring their stated objective is the annihilation of Israel and the Jews who reside there.  And you are literally the only one I would make that statement about on this board.

Man, saying you "don't know" if some is an antisemite "but" might be crossing a line.  Just saying.


I mean probably not as bad as threatening physical violence but this is why threads get shut down.

[Luvnit2]

https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/november-14-israel-hamas-war

Biden continues to take heat from both sides, this time his own. 400 people from 40 departments demand he demand a cease fire in Gaza.

Meanwhile liberals continue to attack Trump for stupid things like calling enemies vermin....LOL Trump is just so mean.

Four hundred government officials from 40 departments and agencies within President Biden's administration signed a letter opposing the president's handling of the Israel-Hamas war and demanding a cease-fire.

The Tuesday letter, first reported by the New York Times, includes officials from the State Department, White House, National Security Council, and the Justice Department.

"We call on President Biden to urgently demand a cease-fire; and to call for de-escalation of the current conflict by securing the immediate release of the Israeli hostages and arbitrarily detained Palestinians; the restoration of water, fuel, electricity and other basic services; and the passage of adequate humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip," the letter reads, in part.

Biden and other Western leaders have pushed back on calls for a cease-fire in Gaza, arguing it would only serve to benefit Hamas terrorists. Biden's administration has instead pushed for humanitarian pauses in the fighting, which Israel has agreed to.

Fox News' Gillian Turner contributed to this report

[Dill]

(11-13-2023, 06:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Incorrect on every level.  I have stated, repeatedly, in this very forum that Israel is far from innocent.  They have engaged in morally reprehensible behavior in the past and likely will do so in the future.  What I do not do is excuse, mitigate or attempt to justify away the wanton rape and murder conducted by a terrorist organization.  Many people have criticized Israel in this subforum, often rightfully so.  What no one but you does is continually argue in Hamas's favor by excusing or justifying their behavior.  I have also said repeatedly that I'm not the biggest fan of Israel's foreign policy, coincidentally in a thread on the subject before 10/07/23.  I will repeat my point from there, your position on this subject is so massively biased against Israel that any fair minded person would call you out for it.  I don't know if you're an antisemite, but you sure spend a lot of time excusing terrorists ands ignoring their stated objective is the annihilation of Israel and the Jews who reside there.  And you are literally the only one I would make that statement about on this board.

I've said Hamas needs to be destroyed. And reminded Luvint that I don't support ANY right wing politics or organizations anywhere.

So I guess the question is -- where is the evidence that I have "excused, mitigated" or otherwise justified Hamas' behavior?
Where have I "argued in their favor"?

Your "examples" thereof, if you think you have any, will just establish what I said above--you offer forum posters two choices:

Validate Israel's dispossession of Palestinians or, be called a maybe-don't-know-for-sure "anti-semite." 

What sort of "fair-minded person" thinks it's ok to drive Palestinians out of their homes, give their household possessions
to new Jewish settlers, and then pen them up in areas under military control for generations? Then demand that the
robbed acknowledge Israel's right to do this?

Only someone who thinks Palestinians don't have equal rights with Israelis--i.e., someone "massively biased" against them. 
Doesn't matter if you say Israel is "far from innocent" or otherwise mitigate their actions 
if you are still demanding the dispossessed validate their own dispossession.

That dispossession--which is still ongoing--isn't just "morally reprehensible," IT'S WHY WE HAVE THE CURRENT WAR. 
Your response to my recognition of what Israel has done has been to say that I'm "blaming the Jews." As if someone besides
the Israeli military and state were doing this (Russians? Greeks? Chinese?), and as if I were blaming all Jews--which is all
a deflective tactic and more ad hominem. Especially since many Israelis and Jews world wide agree with me. 

You "admit" Israel is far from innocent, but still demand the people whose homes they stole acknowledge Israel's 
right to both steal the homes and keep them afterwards. 

That's why many Palestinians don't recognize the right of Israel to exist--BECAUSE RECOGNIZING THAT RIGHT VALIDATES THEIR
DISPOSSESSION. And those that have recognized Israel's right to exist have found the rate of dispossession just continues.

[Dill]

(11-14-2023, 01:53 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: U.S. President Joseph Biden had suggested on Wednesday that he had seen images of children beheaded by militants.
Does POTUS Joe Biden count?
Or this soldier?
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231027-israeli-officer-says-he-found-baby-beheaded-in-hamas-attack
Colonel Golan Vach, head of the military search and rescue service, told AFP he saw the body of a mother protecting a baby while searching debris at the Beeri kibbutz three days after the attacks.
"When I pulled it over I saw a decapitated baby. I took it up with my hands and I carried it, and I put it in the body bag. I personally did it," he said while on a media tour of another kibbutz organised by the military.
But by all means keep defending Hamas who also burned babies alive and also beheaded women. All has been confirmed.

And yet--the Israeli government has backed off from the claim. Looks like Biden did exactly what you accused Tlaib of doing--taking news
reports seriously before they had been vetted. So here is the link again. 

https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2023/hamas-behaded-babies-israel-unconfirmed-reports-spread/