Biden now calling for Israel to pause???

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-14-2023, 09:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: Man, saying you "don't know" if some is an antisemite "but" might be crossing a line.  Just saying.


I mean probably not as bad as threatening physical violence but this is why threads get shut down.

Sloppy once directly quoted a KKK leader when speaking about black people.  He was rightly called out for this bigotry.  Dill routinely attacks Israel, and only Israel in these discussions.  He consistently excuses and mitigates the conduct of terrorists placing the blame for their behavior not on themselves, but on Israel, the US or western foreign policy.  Since Dill doesn't mind I'll break my rule.  What he does is like excusing the conduct of the Third Reich because the treaty of Versailles and the subsequent behavior of the victors of WW1 was so unfair to Germany.  While it is certainly true that these things contributed to the rise of extremism in Germany using them to ameliorate the subsequent actions of the Nazis would, and should, be rightfully called out as unacceptable.  Dill engages in that exact behavior on a routine basis.  I don't expect you to, ever, disagree with him, but I'd honestly be astonished if you don't see this as well.

(11-14-2023, 12:09 PM)Dill Wrote: I've said Hamas needs to be destroyed. And reminded Luvint that I don't support ANY right wing politics or organizations anywhere.

So I guess the question is -- where is the evidence that I have "excused, mitigated" or otherwise justified Hamas' behavior?
Where have I "argued in their favor"?

Your "examples" thereof, if you think you have any, will just establish what I said above--you offer forum posters two choices:

Validate Israel's dispossession of Palestinians or, be called a maybe-don't-know-for-sure "anti-semite." 

What sort of "fair-minded person" thinks it's ok to drive Palestinians out of their homes, give their household possessions
to new Jewish settlers, and then pen them up in areas under military control for generations? Then demand that the
robbed acknowledge Israel's right to do this?

Only someone who thinks Palestinians don't have equal rights with Israelis--i.e., someone "massively biased" against them. 
Doesn't matter if you say Israel is "far from innocent" or otherwise mitigate their actions 
if you are still demanding the dispossessed validate their own dispossession.

That dispossession--which is still ongoing--isn't just "morally reprehensible," IT'S WHY WE HAVE THE CURRENT WAR. 
Your response to my recognition of what Israel has done has been to say that I'm "blaming the Jews." As if someone besides
the Israeli military and state were doing this (Russians? Greeks? Chinese?), and as if I were blaming all Jews--which is all
a deflective tactic and more ad hominem. Especially since many Israelis and Jews world wide agree with me. 

You "admit" Israel is far from innocent, but still demand the people whose homes they stole acknowledge Israel's 
right to both steal the homes and keep them afterwards. 

That's why many Palestinians don't recognize the right of Israel to exist--BECAUSE RECOGNIZING THAT RIGHT VALIDATES THEIR
DISPOSSESSION. And those that have recognized Israel's right to exist have found the rate of dispossession just continues.

You continue to ignore the most basic, and important, point regarding this conflict.  The Arab world has sought Israel's annihilation form the very beginning.  Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran continue to state there will be no peace until Israel is wiped off the map and, in the process every Jew in the country is dead.  Israel could have done things better, but nothing they could do, would do or will ever do, will satisfy the Islamic extremists who seek their extermination.  You ignore this because to acknowledge it makes your whole house of cards tumble down.  Israel could be at their 1948 borders and the exact same things would be happening because religious extremists demand their extermination.  Hence your continued, and strident efforts to paint Israel as the cause of this conflict, despite this obvious evidence to the contrary, makes you an apologist.  

[Dill]

(11-14-2023, 01:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You continue to ignore the most basic, and important, point regarding this conflict.  The Arab world has sought Israel's annihilation form the very beginning.  Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran continue to state there will be no peace until Israel is wiped off the map and, in the process every Jew in the country is dead.  Israel could have done things better, but nothing they could do, would do or will ever do, will satisfy the Islamic extremists who seek their extermination.  You ignore this because to acknowledge it makes your whole house of cards tumble down.  Israel could be at their 1948 borders and the exact same things would be happening because religious extremists demand their extermination.  Hence your continued, and strident efforts to paint Israel as the cause of this conflict, despite this obvious evidence to the contrary, makes you an apologist.  

So, no examples of Dill excusing Hamas. 

Just want to make sure I understand you before I respond. So two questions:

1. Are you saying that the hostility of the Palestinians and Arab world towards Israel is NOT really because Israel drove hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes in a terror campaign to create its 1948 borders? It's NOT because the dispossession continues in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and NOT because 5 million Palestinians are under military control without basic human rights?

Like NOT harming all those millions would have made no difference in hostility towards them?  So it's not a "cause"? 

2. Are you saying that "the Arab world" would not, at this moment, get behind a single- or two-state solution, both of which would "destroy Israel" but leave all Israeli citizens alive and part of a new state arrangement? 

That's what I'm hearing, but I want to be sure.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-14-2023, 04:35 PM)Dill Wrote: So, no examples of Dill excusing Hamas.

Sure, not a single example in this thread at all. 

Quote:Just want to make sure I understand you before I respond. So two questions:

1. Are you saying that the hostility of the Palestinians and Arab world towards Israel is NOT really because Israel drove hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes in a terror campaign to create its 1948 borders? It's NOT because the dispossession continues in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and NOT because 5 million Palestinians are under military control without basic human rights?

Like NOT harming all those millions would have made no difference in hostility towards them?  So it's not a "cause"? 

No, it wouldn't have made any difference.  History rather backs me up.  Assad and ISIS massacre tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands.  Nary a peep.  Saudi Arabia attacks Yemen on the regular, nary a peep.  Jordan expels Palestinians by the thousands, nary a peep.  The minute you include Jews into the picture and it's the beginning of WW3.  If Israel had done everything completely above board they'd still be getting attacked to this day.  Radical Islam demands the destruction of Israel and the elimination of its Jewish population.  Don't take my word for it, take Hamas's, Hezbollah and Iran's.

Quote:2.

Quote:Are you saying that "the Arab world" would not, at this moment, get behind a single- or two-state solution, both of which would "destroy Israel" but leave all Israeli citizens alive and part of a new state arrangement? 

That's what I'm hearing, but I want to be sure.

OMG, you're literally advocating for the destruction of Israel here.  Of course they'd be behind that, just as, apparently, you are.  The ability to destroy Israel and then deal with the Jews in their midst with impunity?  Literally a Hamas wish list, and apparently on yours as well.  

I've answered two of your questions, now answer one of mine.  In your proposed "solution" do you really think the Jews currently living in Israel would be treated fairly and without rancor by whatever state and people fills the void of what was once Israel?  Do you really think for one second that they wouldn't be subjected to horrific abuse, at best?

[Luvnit2]

(11-14-2023, 12:14 PM)Dill Wrote: And yet--the Israeli government has backed off from the claim. Looks like Biden did exactly what you accused Tlaib of doing--taking news
reports seriously before they had been vetted. So here is the link again. 

https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2023/hamas-behaded-babies-israel-unconfirmed-reports-spread/

The key is 'unconfirmed" not never happened. I am sorry the soldier did not take a picture for your need for definitive proof.

As for Biden, he is the POTUS so his making that type of error is inexcusable since he has access to all evidence, Talaib doe not.

Talaib did back off, she continued to say Israel bombed a hospital and killed innocent children days after the US intelligence had confirmed the bomb was launched inside Gaza by Islamic Jihadists and misfired and landed in the hospital parking lot.

I have to this day never heard her set the record straight, NYT, AP, CNN and others finally did, but not Talaib. Why??? Why not during her censure speech refuse to apologize for spreading major disinformation? Please Dill help us understand as you appear to be aligned with her thinking.

Do you understand what Palestinians (not just Hamas) mean when they quote 'from the river to the sea'? I ask because Talaib wants us to believe she had no idea it meant to eliminate every Jew from the river to the sea in Israel.

[Dill]

(11-13-2023, 06:07 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: 2. Is there also a far left or are you just making crap up?

This gets a separate post.

Yes, there is a "far left" in Israel.  They are present in human rights organizations like Adalah and B't Selem, which opposes Israel as an Apartheid state.
https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid.
They have some humanitarian coverage of Gaza.
https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20231010_revenge_policy_in_motion_israel_committing_war_crimes_in_gaza

There are also "far left" Jewish-Israeli groups who use their bodies as human shields in the West Bank to protect Palestinian
farmers from settler violence.
https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/11/13/rabbi-helps-occupied-west-bank-farmers-amid-rising-israeli-settler-violence

Hadash Ta'al, a Jewish socialist and an Arab party which had 6 seats in the last Knesset are also and example.

There are left-wing newspapers like Ha'aretz, which keep settler violence before the world's eyes--like this recent incident, in which three Israeli peace activists, including a minor, were also beaten.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-21/ty-article-magazine/.premium/beatings-burns-attempted-sexual-assault-settlers-and-soldiers-abused-palestinians/0000018b-530f-d1d7-ab8b-7f5fca1d0000?lts=1699995889091
 Soldiers and settlers detained and handcuffed three Palestinians from the West Bank village Wadi as-Seeq, and for hours, according to the Palestinians, they were severely beaten, stripped to their underwear, and photographed handcuffed, in their underwear. Their captors urinated on two of them and extinguished burning cigarettes on them. There was even an attempt to penetrate one of them with an object.

So yes, there is definitely a "far left" in Israel. And SSF's Nazi analogy would apply as well to them as to me

[Dill]

(11-13-2023, 06:07 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Hamas was voted in. Hamas's and a lot of Muslims in Syria, Iran and Iraq constantly chant death to America, death to Israel. That is common knowledge, we have Jews surrounded by states that want them extinguished. 

Palestinians are learning what happens when you vote in far right leaders. 
"Mulsims" chant "death to America" because the US has enabled the dispossession of Palestinians.  
You seem to think that's no reason to get upset.

(11-13-2023, 06:07 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You say the far right in Israel want to kill every Palestinian and Muslim in the middle east. Please provide the link:
1. There is a far right in Israel and who are they and want is their charter.
2. Is there also a far left or are you just making crap up?
3. Please show me anything your supposedly far right has down to kill mass innocent civilians in Gaza or anywhere in the middle east.

Sure there's a "far right" in Israel--starting with Prime Minister Netanyahu's party, the Likud, which has been pushing illegal settlements in the West Bank to prevent it from ever reverting back to Palestinian hands. Here are five more examples:

His Minister of Agriculture, Avi Dichter, apparently wants Gaza to become a second "Nakba," the word Palestinians use to describe their first dispossession int 1947-48. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909

Netanyahu's minister of information, Galit Distel-Atbaryan, was just forced to resign because of this call to genocide:
Erase Gaza from the face of the earth. Let the Gazan monsters rush to the southern border and flee into Egypt, or die. And let them die badly. Gaza should be wiped off the map, and fire and brimstone on the heads of the Nazis in Judea and Samaria. Jewish wrath to shake the earth around the world. We need a cruel, vengeful IDF here. Anything less is immoral.

Also on the far right is Bezalel Smotrich, proud homophobe who does not think Palestinians should have equal human rights and famously called Hamas an "asset" because it drew support away from liberal/left options for Palestinians. His plan is to annex the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Palestinians who assent to residential status without citizenship can remain in three enclaves. The rest must be expelled or killed. He entered the Knesset as part of a coalition that included the far right religious party Noam, part of Netanyahu's coalition.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/12/bezalel-smotrich-israel-far-right-demagogue-drawing-fringe-beliefs-to-centre
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-home-hopeful-boasts-of-being-proud-homophobe/
https://theintercept.com/2023/10/14/hamas-israel-palestinian-authority/  
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2015-12-10/ty-article/mk-bezalel-smotrich-duma-murder-is-not-terrorism/0000017f-f0d3-dc28-a17f-fcf785ee0000
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909

Another example would be Jewish supremacist Itmar ben gvir of the Otzmah Yehudit party.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/25/world/israeli-minister-racist-claim-intl/index.html
https://www.npr.org/2022/11/26/1139266678/israel-appoints-far-right-politician-with-a-history-of-inciting-racism-as-nation
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66614459

Final example for now is May Golan, the Israeli consul in NY, whose comments have a distinct MAGA flavor.  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/20/may-golan-israel-new-york-consular-role
Golan made a political name for herself by denouncing African refugees in Israel, calling them “Muslim infiltrators”, criminals and rapists. She said many have Aids, suggested they were spreading HIV by working as waiters, and demanded they be expelled from the country.
“If I am racist for wanting to defend my country and for wanting to protect my basic rights and security, then I’m a proud racist,” she said at a political rally in 2013 as a member of the far-right Jewish Power party, a descendent of the Kach party that was outlawed under Israeli anti-terrorism laws.

So yes, there is a far right in Israel--and it's not hard to find since it makes up the ruling coalition, which has for decades aggravated the Palestinians by sidelining the two-state solution and continuing settlements in the West Bank. 

[Dill]

(11-14-2023, 06:52 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Do you understand what Palestinians (not just Hamas) mean when they quote 'from the river to the sea'? I ask because Talaib wants us to believe she had no idea it meant to eliminate every Jew from the river to the sea in Israel.

Yes. It developed in the 1960s as a call for a secular, unified state to replace the ethnic, settler state Israel. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/us/politics/river-to-the-sea-israel-gaza-palestinians.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20231110&instance_id=107408&nl=the-morning&regi_id=115336211&segment_id=149674&te=1&user_id=98d040cfc463129084276e2affe091f0

It would only mean "eliminate every Jew" in more recent formulations of some far right Islamist groups.

Because the US right wants to foreground the latter, it now it can be used as a means of silencing protest.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-14-2023, 07:25 PM)Dill Wrote: Yes. It developed in the 1960s as a call for a secular, unified state to replace the ethnic, settler state Israel. 

Yes, we all know "secular state" and the Middle East go hand in hand. 

[Belsnickel]

(11-14-2023, 10:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, we all know "secular state" and the Middle East go hand in hand. 

Well, at that time it would've been more likely. See Iran before we ****** it up.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-14-2023, 10:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, at that time it would've been more likely. See Iran before we ****** it up.

More likely does not equal likely.  Also, I'm sure I've mentioned this before but I lived in Iran when my dad was stationed there from 76' to 78'. My mother, a radical feminist, told me once that, despite my father being deployed to Vietnam twice, the only time she even began to contemplate leaving him was during his deployment to Iran.  Even before the "revolution" it wasn't exactly a hot bed of western values.

[Dill]

(11-14-2023, 10:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, at that time it would've been more likely. See Iran before we ****** it up.

Yeah, difficult to maintain "western values" when the west wants your oil.

Or see Turkey. It's been a secular republic since 1923.

May not be one in 5 more years though. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-15-2023, 12:53 PM)Dill Wrote: Yeah, difficult to maintain "western values" when the west wants your oil.

Or see Turkey. It's been a secular republic since 1923.

May not be one in 5 more years though. 

It isn't one now.  Find a way to blame that on the west?

[Dill]

(11-15-2023, 01:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It isn't one now.  Find a way to blame that on the west?

??? another impression or do you have some proof?


Despite Erodgan's attempt to roll back the "leftist" influence,
the majority of the Turkish population still support a
secular state, so far as I know. 

"The West" is pretty great, isn't it? 

Why are all these former colonial peoples always attacking it? 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-15-2023, 08:51 PM)Dill Wrote: ??? another impression or do you have some proof?


Despite Erodgan's attempt to roll back the "leftist" influence,
the majority of the Turkish population still support a
secular state, so far as I know. 

"The West" is pretty great, isn't it? 

Why are all these former colonial peoples always attacking it? 

The west is pretty great, despite its flaws.  I'd be interested to hear what cultures you think are equivalent or better.  As for Turkey, this is from five years ago. Have things improved since then or gotten worse?

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/6/3/is-turkish-secularism-under-threat

Also, you ever going to put on your man pants and actually answer my question above?  You know in the post where I actually answered the two questions you asked me.

[Dill]

(11-15-2023, 09:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The west is pretty great, despite its flaws.  I'd be interested to hear what cultures you think are equivalent or better.  As for Turkey, this is from five years ago.  Have things improved since then or gotten worse?

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/6/3/is-turkish-secularism-under-threat

Also, you ever going to put on your man pants and actually answer my question above?  You know in the post where I actually answered the two questions you asked me.

Be careful what you wish for. 

Sure. My answer is typed out. But I'll let it set overnight, fine tune it, it and post it tomorrow, along with some other responses/clarifications. 
It's part of a sequence, a systematic argument, based on a consensus of professional historians, not IDF spokespersons. 

And everyone agrees Erdogan is using religion to turn Turkey to the right. But for the moment, it is still a secular democracy.
Your five-year-old link is not proof it isn't one now. So you were offering another impression.

And I'm pretty fine with Western Culture. I'm upholding it when I uphold IHL. That's one of the divisions between us. 
Probably THE division.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-15-2023, 11:25 PM)Dill Wrote: Be careful what you wish for. 

Sure. My answer is typed out. But I'll let it set overnight, fine tune it, it and post it tomorrow, along with some other responses/clarifications. 
It's part of a sequence, a systematic argument, based on a consensus of professional historians, not IDF spokespersons. 

[GMDino]

(11-16-2023, 12:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:

Honestly, for someone as well educated and well traveled and with so much life experience, you should welcome a thorough answer.  It may help clear up the differences and we can stop with accusations and putting words in people's mouths and have a discussion.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-16-2023, 09:31 AM)GMDino Wrote: Honestly, for someone as well educated and well traveled and with so much life experience, you should welcome a thorough answer.  It may help clear up the differences and we can stop with accusations and putting words in people's mouths and have a discussion.

Honestly Dino, if that's what I was going to get I'd be thrilled.  Unfortunately, what I'll get is a lot of obfuscation.  An overly verbose answer that doesn't actually address the issue while giving the superficial appearance of doing so.  An answer so wordy that anything of actual substance will be like finding a needle in a haystack.  And if you try and actually engage on the small amount of relevant substance you'll get another overly wordy, circuitous, answer with the exact same issues as the first post.  So, I'll join you in trying to be optimistic about what's coming.  Let's see if we're both disappointed.

[Dill]

(11-16-2023, 09:31 AM)GMDino Wrote: Honestly, for someone as well educated and well traveled and with so much life experience, you should welcome a thorough answer.  It may help clear up the differences and we can stop with accusations and putting words in people's mouths and have a discussion.

Isn't it is possible that someone who constantly puts words in peoples' mouths may not welcome a "thorough answer,"
dismissing historically grounded ethical arguments as "obfuscation" where they contradict received media representations?


I'm assuming that will continue to be the case, but I'll give a thorough answer anyway.  

In case others are reading, challenging "official" impressions with historical facts and ethical arguments based on humanitarian
law might prove interesting to some.

[Dill]

(11-16-2023, 11:46 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Honestly Dino, if that's what I was going to get I'd be thrilled.  Unfortunately, what I'll get is a lot of obfuscation.  An overly verbose answer that doesn't actually address the issue while giving the superficial appearance of doing so.  An answer so wordy that anything of actual substance will be like finding a needle in a haystack.  And if you try and actually engage on the small amount of relevant substance you'll get another overly wordy, circuitous, answer with the exact same issues as the first post.  So, I'll join you in trying to be optimistic about what's coming.  Let's see if we're both disappointed.

Umm Nazi analogies and comparisons to Sloppy, along with unfounded accusations that I "excuse" Hamas whenever I return to the
historical and social causes of the conflict, are not really engaging with with even a small amount of what I have posted.

Rather, you have held my arguments at arm's length, firing impressions at them without engaging, and repeating indefensible claims which cannot be
supported by the historical record or humane "Western" ethics without at all addressing the objections leveled at them.
It's not clear that you even recognize or follow those objections.