Biden overstepped his authority and SC stopped loan forgiveness

[HarleyDog]

(06-30-2023, 11:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: Hopefully through the next elections.  It would be nice if we could help citizens who are legitimately struggling instead of billionaire people and corporations.

I know, I know...wishful thinking.

If you really felt this way you probably wouldn't support student loan forgiveness. The rich ain't going to pay for it. The little guy is. Despite what the suits say in Washington, money talks. Doesnt matter if it's a Democrat or Republican administration. The purse strings are so tight on so many households, even an increase in the water bill is detrimental, let alone an increase in taxes to pay for student loans.

[GMDino]

(06-30-2023, 12:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The whole thing was a scam to buy votes IMO.  Just like W's obscene $300 check for every American, Biden was bribing voters to cast ballots in his favor.  He did so knowing full well he didn't have the authority to follow through.  As noted even Pelosi called him out on it.  In short Dem voters got played.

Also, the idea of forcing people who did not go to college to pay for the degrees of those who did is inegalitarian in the extreme.  You took out a loan, pay it back.

We all pay for things we didn't do via our taxes.  That's a lame argument.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 12:47 PM)GMDino Wrote: We all pay for things we didn't do via our taxes.  That's a lame argument.

That's your entire rebuttal, we pay for lots of other things so why not this?  I see you've really thought this through.  You took out a loan, pay it back.  No one forced you to take out said loan.  No one forced you to get a degree in a useless field.  No one is forcing you to only take a job in your degree's field either, there are lots of jobs that require a BA/S regardless of the degree.  We have record numbers of homeless, children living in poverty and you think we should be paying for someone's gender studies degree.  Your priorities are rather startling.

[*Nately120*]

(06-30-2023, 12:46 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: The purse strings are so tight on so many households, even an increase in the water bill is detrimental, let alone an increase in taxes to pay for student loans.

That's what is interesting about this stuff, a lot of people who didn't take out a billion loans to get a degree in basket weaving are struggling.  As comforting as it is to act like people in student loan debt could have just been smarter and worked harder and they'd be A-OK, there are still people who worked smart and hard and still get wiped out via medial bills or other stuff that isn't all that avoidable.

It's hard for us to admit that these days working hard and "being smart" with your life and money aren't the easy road to success and security that they once were, so we like to act like people who aren't making it did something to deserve to not make it.  

Generic rant, but this stuff here just illustrates our goal to be to consider ourselves victims of circumstance and others victims of their own poor decisions.

[*Nately120*]

(06-30-2023, 12:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You took out a loan, pay it back.

I'll admit it's easier to hear this coming from you and not some GOP politician who accepted nearly half a million in PPP loan forgiveness.  

Again, we can be against student debt forgiveness, but people acting like this is some sort of surprise or insane idea that taxpayers should pay off other people's debt seems a bit self serving. This is pretty much what we as a country do...but we are good at deciding who deserves the tax payers' money and who is being greedy and stupid.

Paying off my debt is smart and helpful, paying off other people's debt is unfair and encourages poor work ethic and financial stupidity.

[KillerGoose]

(06-30-2023, 12:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's your entire rebuttal, we pay for lots of other things so why not this?  I see you've really thought this through.  You took out a loan, pay it back.  No one forced you to take out said loan.  No one forced you to get a degree in a useless field.  No one is forcing you to only take a job in your degree's field either, there are lots of jobs that require a BA/S regardless of the degree.  We have record numbers of homeless, children living in poverty and you think we should be paying for someone's gender studies degree.  Your priorities are rather startling.

I am assuming you're not meaning this to be taken literally, but not everyone affected received a useless degree in gender studies or underwater basket weaving. There are plenty of genuine degrees that end up with the recipient not making enough to handle their loans effectively unless they make massive life changes, such as moving back in with their parents or something along those lines. That's always not an option, either. I graduated making roughly ~$52k with a Marketing degree. I didn't take out loans as I went to a community college and then a satellite campus, so I was able to work full time and pay it off with some assistance from work and the Choctaw nation. However, if I had went to a conventional college and accrued $100k in debt + interest, I would have been in trouble. That also would have been a massive financial decision that I honestly wasn't educated to make at 18, and no one really educated me about it. The consensus at the time was "Okay, you're graduating high school, now you go to college." 

I am not going to take a hardline stance that this should have happened, but I will say that something should be done about the loan situation. We can absolutely find ways to improve it. Even taking a step to make the loans no interest is a start. If they want to do a forgiveness package that is more palatable, they could propose a matching program where every dollar that is paid towards the principle is a dollar forgiven. I am of the opinion that higher education is only beneficial for the country and we are seeing financing issues with stagnating wages and rising cost of living. It would be beneficial to rectify that issue. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 01:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll admit it's easier to hear this coming from you and not some GOP politician who accepted nearly half a million in PPP loan forgiveness.

I'd be against that as well. 

Quote:Again, we can be against student debt forgiveness, but people acting like this is some sort of surprise or insane idea that taxpayers should pay off other people's debt seems a bit self serving. This is pretty much what we as a country do...but we are good at deciding who deserves the tax payers' money and who is being greedy and stupid.

Paying off my debt is smart and helpful, paying off other people's debt is unfair and encourages poor work ethic and financial stupidity.

I'd have a lot more disposable income to pump into the economy if the government paid of my mortgage.  So you may have something there. 

(06-30-2023, 01:13 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I am assuming you're not meaning this to be taken intentionally, but not everyone affected received a useless degree in gender studies or underwater basket weaving. There are plenty of genuine degrees that end up with the recipient not making enough to handle their loans effectively unless they make massive life changes, such as moving back in with their parents or something along those lines. That's always not an option, either. I graduated making roughly ~$52k with a Marketing degree. I didn't take out loans as I went to a community college and then a satellite campus, so I was able to work full time and pay it off with some assistance from work and the Choctaw nation. However, if I had went to a conventional college and accrued $100k in debt + interest, I would have been in trouble. That also would have been a massive financial decision that I honestly wasn't educated to make at 18, and no one really educated me about it. The consensus at the time was "Okay, you're graduating high school, now you go to college." 

I am not going to take a hardline stance that this should have happened, but I will say that something should be done about the loan situation. We can absolutely find ways to improve it. Even taking a step to make the loans no interest is a start. If they want to do a forgiveness package that is more palatable, they could propose a matching program where every dollar that is paid towards the principle is a dollar forgiven. I am of the opinion that higher education is only beneficial for the country and we are seeing financing issues with stagnating wages and rising cost of living. It would be beneficial to rectify that issue. 

I'd have zero issue with measures like freezing interest for "x" time period, or lowering interest permanently.  Or allowing people to request a freeze on payments, and interest, for a set time period.  But paying them off with other people's money?  That's a non-starter for me, and beyond Biden's power to bestow.

You also make an excellent point about going to community college first.  Shaving two years off the tuition at a major university is immensely helpful financially.  I have a friend with a law degree from USC who did exactly that, saved tens of thousands of dollars.

[GMDino]

(06-30-2023, 12:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's your entire rebuttal, we pay for lots of other things so why not this?  I see you've really thought this through.  You took out a loan, pay it back.  No one forced you to take out said loan.  No one forced you to get a degree in a useless field.  No one is forcing you to only take a job in your degree's field either, there are lots of jobs that require a BA/S regardless of the degree.  We have record numbers of homeless, children living in poverty and you think we should be paying for someone's gender studies degree.  Your priorities are rather startling.

Of course its not my "entire rebuttal"...it's pointing out that YOUR reason was lame.

But since you are stuck on "gender studies" I know where you talking points are coming from you cute little "democrat" you.  

I paid back my loans.

My wife paid for 15 years on hers before they were forgiven because she works for non-profits.

In fact I've paid back every loan I've ever taken.

Now let's about banks that take insane risks and need bailed out,  police departments that settle suits.  All paid for with my tax money.

I'd love for us to help the homeless, feed the children and help people trapped in medical or school debt.  It *IS* possible to care about a multitude of things without mentioning them while discussing ONE thing (school loans).

Your arguments are weak and inane.  

[*Nately120*]

(06-30-2023, 01:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd be against that as well. 


I'd have a lot more disposable income to pump into the economy if the government paid of my mortgage.  So you may have something there. 

Yeah, well you might have an easier time paying off that mortgage if taxpayers didn't need to pay off loans Matt Gaetz doesn't need help paying off, but he'll take it anyway.  You and I aren't in the club, but we can at least argue about which one of us made the stupider choices to not be born to ultra wealthy and connected parents, I guess.

It's not a shameful handout if the recipient doesn't need it.  I tells ya, that's our fundamental issue in this country.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 01:19 PM)GMDino Wrote: Of course its not my "entire rebuttal"...it's pointing out that YOUR reason was lame.

No, it's pointing out that you think my reason is lame.

Quote:But since you are stuck on "gender studies" I know where you talking points are coming from you cute little "democrat" you.  

Hahaha, you're so predictable.  It's a common trope, hence its inclusion.  People like killergoose can pick up on these things, why do you struggle so mightily with it?

Quote:I paid back my loans.

My wife paid for 15 years on hers before they were forgiven because she works for non-profits.

In fact I've paid back every loan I've ever taken.

Outstanding.

Quote:Now let's about banks that take insane risks and need bailed out,  police departments that settle suits.  All paid for with my tax money.

Indeed.  Where you cool with that?

Quote:I'd love for us to help the homeless, feed the children and help people trapped in medical or school debt.  It *IS* possible to care about a multitude of things without mentioning them while discussing ONE thing (school loans).

Then I'm assuming you're out there advocating for this in real life and taking active steps in that direction.

Quote:Your arguments are weak and inane.  

Again, in your opinion.  Seeing as how your only rebuttal continues to be, "we pay for lot's of other things so why not this", it may be a more cogent argument than you give it credit.  If it was so weak and inane a master wordsmith like yourself should have no problem thoroughly dissecting it and laying it bare for all to see.  I'll stick around and see.  Color me intrigued.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 01:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yeah, well you might have an easier time paying off that mortgage if taxpayers didn't need to pay off loans Matt Gaetz doesn't need help paying off, but he'll take it anyway.  You and I aren't in the club, but we can at least argue about which one of us made the stupider choices to not be born to ultra wealthy and connected parents, I guess.

It's not a shameful handout if the recipient doesn't need it.  I tells ya, that's our fundamental issue in this country.

See, and I think you know this already, I loathe that kind of thing as well.  The rich and powerful are always hooking themselves up.  That said, the cost of Biden's bribe would be rather high;

https://waysandmeans.house.gov/cbo-confirms-bidens-student-loan-giveaway-costs-taxpayers-nearly-half-a-trillion-this-year/


The nonpartisan experts found that the giveaway will add $426 billion – nearly half a trillion – to the U.S. deficit this year. 


And let's be real here, that money should be going to Ukraine. 

[GMDino]

(06-30-2023, 01:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, it's pointing out that you think my reason is lame.



Hahaha, you're so predictable.  It's a common trope, hence its inclusion.  People like killergoose can pick up on these things, why do you struggle so mightily with it?



Outstanding.



Indeed.  Where you cool with that?



Then I'm assuming you're out there advocating for this in real life and taking active steps in that direction.


Again, in your opinion.  Seeing as how your only rebuttal continues to be, "we pay for lot's of other things so why not this", it may be a more cogent argument than you give it credit.  If it was so weak and inane a master wordsmith like yourself should have no problem thoroughly dissecting it and laying it bare for all to see.  I'll stick around and see.  Color me intrigued.

It's a trope like the welfare queen and its as lame as your excuse for using it.

No, obviously, I don't want my tax money being used for bad cops and bad business decisions which why I mentioned them.  You're not dense enough to have not understood that.  I guess.

I explained why it was lame.  You know why it's lame.  So I won't waste your time, or mine, re-explaining.

[KillerGoose]

(06-30-2023, 01:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd be against that as well. 


I'd have a lot more disposable income to pump into the economy if the government paid of my mortgage.  So you may have something there. 


I'd have zero issue with measures like freezing interest for "x" time period, or lowering interest permanently.  Or allowing people to request a freeze on payments, and interest, for a set time period.  But paying them off with other people's money?  That's a non-starter for me, and beyond Biden's power to bestow.

You also make an excellent point about going to community college first.  Shaving two years off the tuition at a major university is immensely helpful financially.  I have a friend with a law degree from USC who did exactly that, saved tens of thousands of dollars.

At the time, I felt kind of "lame" going to a community college. Most of my friends went off to state colleges and were living the life of a college student while I went to my little CC. However, looking back on it, I am so glad I did. It was something like $1,500 per semester. I worked part-time during CC and was able to pay through tuition and books with a little assistance. Same with my final two years going to a smaller school. Looking at tuition costs for Oklahoma University (where most of my friends went), I saved roughly $42k by going to community college. 

[*Nately120*]

(06-30-2023, 01:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: At the time, I felt kind of "lame" going to a community college. Most of my friends went off to state colleges and were living the life of a college student while I went to my little CC. However, looking back on it, I am so glad I did. It was something like $1,500 per semester. I worked part-time during CC and was able to pay through tuition and books with a little assistance. Same with my final two years going to a smaller school. Looking at tuition costs for Oklahoma University (where most of my friends went), I saved roughly $42k by going to community college. 

I try to comfort myself by telling myself that any money I would have saved being smarter about college would just go down the well with the rest of whatever I could accumulate in my meager life when I'm eventually full of cancer.

[CJD]

(06-30-2023, 12:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The whole thing was a scam to buy votes IMO.  Just like W's obscene $300 check for every American, Biden was bribing voters to cast ballots in his favor.  He did so knowing full well he didn't have the authority to follow through.  As noted even Pelosi called him out on it.  In short Dem voters got played.

Also, the idea of forcing people who did not go to college to pay for the degrees of those who did is inegalitarian in the extreme.  You took out a loan, pay it back.

An alternative way of looking at this is that the Democrats showed voters that the reason they can't get the things they wanted is because Trump was elected and was allowed to appoint 3 conservative judges who have subsequently caused several unfavorable (for liberals) rulings. 

This may actually result in more people voting for democrats if the perception is the Republicans are the reason these rulings are going against them.

[*Nately120*]

(06-30-2023, 01:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: See, and I think you know this already, I loathe that kind of thing as well.  The rich and powerful are always hooking themselves up.

I hear ya, just would have been nice to get a slice of the handout pie for a change before it disappears into the never-satiated gut of the ultra wealthy yet again.  I can't beat 'em and I can't join' em.

Sucks to suck. On the plus side, they're getting closer to convincing other poor people in this country to declare war against me.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 01:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: At the time, I felt kind of "lame" going to a community college. Most of my friends went off to state colleges and were living the life of a college student while I went to my little CC. However, looking back on it, I am so glad I did. It was something like $1,500 per semester. I worked part-time during CC and was able to pay through tuition and books with a little assistance. Same with my final two years going to a smaller school. Looking at tuition costs for Oklahoma University (where most of my friends went), I saved roughly $42k by going to community college. 

I think your position then is likely the norm for most kids.  As you say, it's a shame because it can save you serious money and you end up with the exact same degree.

(06-30-2023, 01:38 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: An alternative way of looking at this is that the Democrats showed voters that the reason they can't get the things they wanted is because Trump was elected and was allowed to appoint 3 conservative judges who have subsequently caused several unfavorable (for liberals) rulings. 

This may actually result in more people voting for democrats if the perception is the Republicans are the reason these rulings are going against them.

Sure, but that would display a marked ignorance of how our government is set up.  Pelosi herself correctly pointed out that Biden didn't have the authority.  The legislative branch has ceded a lot more power to the executive than the Frames ever intended, they certainly don't need to continue to do so.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 01:41 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I hear ya, just would have been nice to get a slice of the handout pie for a change before it disappears into the never-satiated gut of the ultra wealthy yet again.  I can't beat 'em and I can't join' em.

Sucks to suck.  On the plus side, they're getting closer to convincing other poor people in this country to declare war against me.

Now, something like UBI I could back.  If it affects every person then I'm all for it  I'd even back limits like no one who nets more than $1 million a year is eligible.  But the idea of poor people paying for other people's college degrees just rankles.  It's patently unfair, as is what you're describing.

[*Nately120*]

(06-30-2023, 01:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think your position then is likely the norm for most kids.  As you say, it's a shame because it can save you serious money and you end up with the exact same degree.

People are going to change the way they go about things, be it trade school or community colleges etc.  The real question if if the new "smart ways" to go about getting a degree or skill aren't going to become new targets for exploitation and grift as traditional colleges became.

Going to a traditional college used to be a wise way to get ahead in life, it is no longer the case...are the next wise avenues going to be immune from this?  We shall see.  Man, when I went to college the smart thing to do was to get into the housing market and start fishing that lake dry before someone else did.  Those were the times.

(06-30-2023, 01:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Now, something like UBI I could back.  If it affects every person then I'm all for it  I'd even back limits like no one who nets more than $1 million a year is eligible.  But the idea of poor people paying for other people's college degrees just rankles.  It's patently unfair, as is what you're describing.

"Life isn't fair" used to be the mantra of the old conservatives in my life.  It blows goats that stuff suddenly had to get fair when I got a shot at a slice of that sweet handout pie.  Damn it all.  Oh well...being poor makes me like, go to heaven or something. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 01:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: People are going to change the way they go about things, be it trade school or community colleges etc.  The real question if if the new "smart ways" to go about getting a degree or skill aren't going to become new targets for exploitation and grift as traditional colleges became.

Going to a traditional college used to be a wise way to get ahead in life, it is no longer the case...are the next wise avenues going to be immune from this?  We shall see.  Man, when I went to college the smart thing to do was to get into the housing market and start fishing that lake dry before someone else did.  Those were the times.

Alternatively, people could keep their goals more reasonable, and thus more easily achieved.