Biden overstepped his authority and SC stopped loan forgiveness

[Mickeypoo]

(07-03-2023, 09:32 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I don’t know if he does or not, but that’s irrelevant. This is a beneficial step to helping people with crushing student loan debt. It’s not perfect, but it will absolutely help.

I'm not against helping people, but this is not ok.

What about people with crushing personal loans, or crushing auto loans, or crushing credit card payments, or crushing mortgage payments?

I don't disagree with you that getting an education should be affordable and not put someone into extreme debt, but one time forgiveness for a select few with a select single loan type that will solve zero issues is not the way to do it.  IMO it is pure 100% vote buying and Biden straight up scammed those people.

Some things in life are just expensive.  Not everyone will be able to obtain those things.  Prestigious colleges are expensive.  Some people will be able to go and others won't.  Maybe some of those colleges that are worth billions should be providing solutions, not the taxpayers.

I don't know what the answer is, but I am 100% certain what Biden is doing is not it.  

[KillerGoose]

(07-03-2023, 09:49 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I'm not against helping people, but this is not ok.

What about people with crushing personal loans, or crushing auto loans, or crushing credit card payments, or crushing mortgage payments?

I don't disagree with you that getting an education should be affordable and not put someone into extreme debt, but one time forgiveness for a select few with a select single loan type that will solve zero issues is not the way to do it.  IMO it is pure 100% vote buying and Biden straight up scammed those people.

Some things in life are just expensive.  Not everyone will be able to obtain those things.  Prestigious colleges are expensive.  Some people will be able to go and others won't.  Maybe some of those colleges that are worth billions should be providing solutions, not the taxpayers.

I don't know what the answer is, but I am 100% certain what Biden is doing is not it.  

I think we have a misunderstanding of what is going on. Biden isn't forgiving loans (yet, I think he is still trying). The link that I posted is some modifications to how those loans are paid back in order to make it easier on borrowers. Here is the information...

Quote:Specifically, the plan will:

• For undergraduate loans, cut in half the amount that borrowers have to pay each month from 10% to 5% of discretionary income.
• Raise the amount of income that is considered non-discretionary income and therefore is protected from repayment, guaranteeing that no borrower earning under 225% of the federal poverty level—about the annual equivalent of a $15 minimum wage for a single borrower—will have to make a monthly payment under this plan.
• Forgive loan balances after 10 years of payments, instead of 20 years, for borrowers with original loan balances of $12,000 or less. The Department estimates that this reform will allow nearly all community college borrowers to be debt-free within 10 years.
• Not charge borrowers with unpaid monthly interest, so that unlike other existing income-driven repayment plans, no borrower’s loan balance will grow as long as they make their monthly payments—even when that monthly payment is $0 because their income is low.
  

So, it is an income-driven-repayment plan. Basically, there is a threshold where if you make too little money, your payments are "paused". For those who can make payments, the minimum amount to pay has been reduced. The forgiveness window has been reduced from 20 years to 10 years (this window already existed, mind you - this type of "forgiveness" has been happening for as long as I can remember. Biden just reduced the time period). 

That is why I believe that this should be a pretty popular reform. It is addressing some of the underlying issues instead of a forgiveness plan. I do think this is part of the answer, long-term. 

[GMDino]

(07-03-2023, 10:15 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think we have a misunderstanding of what is going on. Biden isn't forgiving loans (yet, I think he is still trying). The link that I posted is some modifications to how those loans are paid back in order to make it easier on borrowers. Here is the information...


So, it is an income-driven-repayment plan. Basically, there is a threshold where if you make too little money, your payments are "paused". For those who can make payments, the minimum amount to pay has been reduced. The forgiveness window has been reduced from 20 years to 10 years (this window already existed, mind you - this type of "forgiveness" has been happening for as long as I can remember. Biden just reduced the time period). 

That is why I believe that this should be a pretty popular reform. It is addressing some of the underlying issues instead of a forgiveness plan. I do think this is part of the answer, long-term. 

The other thing this gets at is something most of us agree on:  The student loan issue goes far beyond just who borrows what and how they'll pay it back.  There are multiple issues at work here from the institutions to the banks to the government to interest rates, etc.

Just forgiving loans isn't enough.  The system needs reworked.

[Mickeypoo]

(07-03-2023, 10:15 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think we have a misunderstanding of what is going on. Biden isn't forgiving loans (yet, I think he is still trying). The link that I posted is some modifications to how those loans are paid back in order to make it easier on borrowers. Here is the information...


So, it is an income-driven-repayment plan. Basically, there is a threshold where if you make too little money, your payments are "paused". For those who can make payments, the minimum amount to pay has been reduced. The forgiveness window has been reduced from 20 years to 10 years (this window already existed, mind you - this type of "forgiveness" has been happening for as long as I can remember. Biden just reduced the time period). 

That is why I believe that this should be a pretty popular reform. It is addressing some of the underlying issues instead of a forgiveness plan. I do think this is part of the answer, long-term. 

Well I hope you are correct.  Seems like some of the points could help.

I am simply against relieving people of debt, at others expense (in this case the taxpayers) that they voluntarily took out.

I have been through some very hard times financially a couple decades ago of my own making and I never once asked or expected anyone to help.  I dug myself out and have not made the same mistakes again.

Maybe I am looking at this wrong, but I feel like getting a very expensive degree is like buying too much of a car or house.  You have to live within your means.  As far as I am aware there are affordable college options.  Community College, trade schools, military.  I do understand that a college degree shouldn't be prohibitively expensive and steps should be taken to help with that, like starting with some of the colleges worth billions.  What are they going to do to make college more affordable?

People bought houses when home prices were very high and then the bubble burst and they were in trouble.  That's on them.  Taxpayers shouldn't bail them out.  I feel the same way about student loans.  Moving forward, yes, let's try to come up with some solutions, but tax payers should not be paying anyone's personal debt.

I have a friend who still owes 20k+ for a social services degree from about 10 years ago.  They are not even working in that field and when they did they weren't making that much.  I went into the military for 4 years, have never had any educational debt and I make very good money imo for having no college degree, especially for my location.  My point is that you don't have to rack up huge college debt to have a decent job.

I am not very articulate with typing back and forth and do much better with face to face flowing discussion/debate.  I definitely don't disagree with you that there should be some reform so people have better/cheaper access to college.

[Mickeypoo]

(07-03-2023, 11:10 AM)GMDino Wrote: The other thing this gets at is something most of us agree on:  The student loan issue goes far beyond just who borrows what and how they'll pay it back.  There are multiple issues at work here from the institutions to the banks to the government to interest rates, etc.

Just forgiving loans isn't enough.  The system needs reworked.

Forgiving loans should not happen imo.  That is a personal responsibility that someone voluntarily agreed to and signed a contract.  If the Gov't wants to pay off someone's personal debt (student loans in this case) then they better be paying off everyone's personal loans, credit card debt, auto loans, mortages, etc.  Those are all loans adults willingly accepted and signed for.

That includes PPP loans even though our Fed Gov't along with other world leaders are responsible for people needing those loans in the first place.

I definitely agree the system needs to be reworked.

[KillerGoose]

(07-03-2023, 11:12 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Well I hope you are correct.  Seems like some of the points could help.

I am simply against relieving people of debt, at others expense (in this case the taxpayers) that they voluntarily took out.

I have been through some very hard times financially a couple decades ago of my own making and I never once asked or expected anyone to help.  I dug myself out and have not made the same mistakes again.

Maybe I am looking at this wrong, but I feel like getting a very expensive degree is like buying too much of a car or house.  You have to live within your means.  As far as I am aware there are affordable college options.  Community College, trade schools, military.  I do understand that a college degree shouldn't be prohibitively expensive and steps should be taken to help with that, like starting with some of the colleges worth billions.  What are they going to do to make college more affordable?

People bought houses when home prices were very high and then the bubble burst and they were in trouble.  That's on them.  Taxpayers shouldn't bail them out.  I feel the same way about student loans.  Moving forward, yes, let's try to come up with some solutions, but tax payers should not be paying anyone's personal debt.

I have a friend who still owes 20k+ for a social services degree from about 10 years ago.  They are not even working in that field and when they did they weren't making that much.  I went into the military for 4 years, have never had any educational debt and I make very good money imo for having no college degree, especially for my location.  My point is that you don't have to rack up huge college debt to have a decent job.

I am not very articulate with typing back and forth and do much better with face to face flowing discussion debate.  I definitely don't disagree with you that there should be some reform so people have better/cheaper access to college.

To the bolded, I think that is ultimately where you and I are going to find common ground. My ultimate goal would be to have free college, but I think that is a bit of a "pie in the sky" type thing right now. More affordable access is still absolutely a win and not only benefits individuals, but the country. You can say that you vehemently disagree with loan relief and I can completely understand. I think there are reasonable arguments for that position. Making the payments easier is a pretty reasonable alternative that I think the vast majority of people would be on board with. We aren't relieving people of debt, but easing the burden of the payments so they are able to use the money they have for housing/transportation/food etc. 

As far as a solution to making colleges cheaper? That I don't know. Higher education is mostly/completely socialized in Europe. That is a tough sell to people in the U.S. right now but that is the model that people tend to look at when it comes to a discussion like this. 

[Mickeypoo]

(07-03-2023, 11:22 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: To the bolded, I think that is ultimately where you and I are going to find common ground. My ultimate goal would be to have free college, but I think that is a bit of a "pie in the sky" type thing right now. More affordable access is still absolutely a win and not only benefits individuals, but the country. You can say that you vehemently disagree with loan relief and I can completely understand. I think there are reasonable arguments for that position. Making the payments easier is a pretty reasonable alternative that I think the vast majority of people would be on board with. We aren't relieving people of debt, but easing the burden of the payments so they are able to use the money they have for housing/transportation/food etc. 

As far as a solution to making colleges cheaper? That I don't know. Higher education is mostly/completely socialized in Europe. That is a tough sell to people in the U.S. right now but that is the model that people tend to look at when it comes to a discussion like this. 

I agree with your whole first paragraph.  I have no issue with some easing to help people as long as they are still obligated to repay the amount they signed on the line for and the taxpayers are not on the hook for the easing.  The only thing that makes it feel a little wrong to me is the targeting of a specific loan to a specific group of people.  Easing the burden of any loan payment of any kind for everybody helps everybody, not just a select few.

I don't know enough or hardly anything about socialized education, so I can't really have an intelligent conversation with you.  That's on me.  lol.

[Leon]

(07-03-2023, 08:21 AM)pally Wrote: Your family was GIVEN an advantage over every other non white, male led family and that was the ability to obtain your land in the first place at a time when most of them were locked out. Your family had access to loans and other sources of cash they didn’t.

Because of this one tiny advantage, and yes hard work, your family was able to be supported in relative comfort for 120 years.  
A 100+ year head start will almost never be made up by hard work alone.

None are so blind as those who refuse to see

theres no talking to you lady. i talk about hard work and you turn it into racism. i talk about pride in my family and farm and you make it sound like i should feel guilty about it. you want to turn everything into findings victims and crapping on folks who just worked hard and made it. 

any white man has to be guilty in your eyes even if they aint done nothing wrong. i aint responsible for what other white men might have done a long time ago. im only responsible for my actions and my actions have been hard work and making my farm bigger and better and helping folks out that need help. not sure why you think i should feel guilty. 

[GMDino]

Interestingly, and this happens often, the current episode of a podcast I was listening too was talking about schools and tuitions and such...unrelated to the court decision.

Now this particular host has had other episodes about how schools if higher learning are not particularly honest or worth the cost.  But this was just an aside which I think fits this discussion.

Princeton has an endowment of (as of 2022) $35.8 BILLION with a growth of 11% over the last twenty years.

And they use disbursements to cover about 2/3 of the operating budget.

Quote:Endowment distributions and other investment income represent 66% of the University’s operating revenue annually. This percentage has steadily increased as the endowment has grown. In 1997, only 33% of the University’s operating revenue was funded by endowment earnings.

An operating budget of $2 Billion.

10% of that budget is for...financial aid.

Meanwhile the entirety of Princeton...including paying for ALL tuition could be paid for from the investment returns from their endowment.

Instead they still require students to find a way to pay to go.  Often with loans.

Now one could argue that no one has to go to Princeton.  True.

One could also argue that if it were free to go their costs would rise with the number of students.  Also True.

But this is just one example of a school making so much money from gifts alone that they COULD be free...and yet never will be.

Instead we have a system where students who want a good, or the best, education must drive themselves into debt to do while those same institutions rake in money from graduates and stock it away for...something.

Free college in the US is probably a pipe dream...I mean its only worked in a lot of other places, how could the greatest country ever do it?!?!

All of this goes back to the fact the entire system needs reworked...and no one will do it because there is too much money being made the way it is.

[Belsnickel]

I mean, this was an inevitability. Biden did overstep and this was never going to work. There is no executive authority that exists that would work. He over promised and he won't be able to deliver. It is what it is. While I would like to see some relief for those overburdened with student debt I am happy that executive overreach was smacked down.

[treee]

(07-03-2023, 06:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I mean, this was an inevitability. Biden did overstep and this was never going to work. There is no executive authority that exists that would work. He over promised and he won't be able to deliver. It is what it is. While I would like to see some relief for those overburdened with student debt I am happy that executive overreach was smacked down.

If you're going to go that route then the blame would be on the congress that made the bill. "Waive or modify" is pretty sweeping in what it could be interpreted as including. 

[*pally*]

(07-03-2023, 03:28 PM)Leon Wrote: theres no talking to you lady. i talk about hard work and you turn it into racism. i talk about pride in my family and farm and you make it sound like i should feel guilty about it. you want to turn everything into findings victims and crapping on folks who just worked hard and made it. 

any white man has to be guilty in your eyes even if they aint done nothing wrong. i aint responsible for what other white men might have done a long time ago. im only responsible for my actions and my actions have been hard work and making my farm bigger and better and helping folks out that need help. not sure why you think i should feel guilty. 

You have every right to be proud of your family and their success. 

What I find sad though, is people, like you, who are so engrossed in their own reality and history that they simply seemingly lack the ability to understand that most of the world doesn't share the same ones.  Their lives today are different from yours because their life and family histories are different and faced different obstacles...some were put in place because of their skin color or sex.  

Your family history was built for you.  You had no say in it.  You weren't responsible for the laws in place 120 years ago that allowed them a step up.  I never said you were. But you should understand that your family history didn't happen in a vacuum and that it reflects the times and locations that it took place in.  

[Luvnit2]

(07-03-2023, 07:22 PM)pally Wrote: You have every right to be proud of your family and their success. 

What I find sad though, is people, like you, who are so engrossed in their own reality and history that they simply seemingly lack the ability to understand that most of the world doesn't share the same ones.  Their lives today are different from yours because their life and family histories are different and faced different obstacles...some were put in place because of their skin color or sex.  

Your family history was built for you.  You had no say in it.  You weren't responsible for the laws in place 120 years ago that allowed them a step up.  I never said you were. But you should understand that your family history didn't happen in a vacuum and that it reflects the times and locations that it took place in.  

I don't recall Leon stating his family was given farm land 120 years ago. My hunch is his family bought the land as an investment. I have no idea is the purchaser was 30 years old or 60 years old, but I assume they earned the money and no one gave it to them because they were white.

Leon also made a decision, to work the farm with his family. Farming is very hard work, you dismiss it because he is a white male. You are right about one thing, it is a far different America in 2023 than it was in 1960. Racism will always exist with the ignorant. A racist can be any color of skin in today' world. We are not a perfect country, but time for everyone to look forward versus what happened a long time ago.

I applaud Leon for his path, I applaud LeBron James for his work ethic to become one of the best BB players (with MJ) of all time. I applaud Obama for becoming the POTUS for not 1, but 2 terms. I am hopeful we will soon see a woman become POTUS, not because she is a woman or the color of her skin, but because the nation feels she is best to run our great country.

[*pally*]

(07-03-2023, 08:55 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I don't recall Leon stating his family was given farm land 120 years ago. My hunch is his family bought the land as an investment. I have no idea is the purchaser was 30 years old or 60 years old, but I assume they earned the money and no one gave it to them because they were white.

Leon also made a decision, to work the farm with his family. Farming is very hard work, you dismiss it because he is a white male. You are right about one thing, it is a far different America in 2023 than it was in 1960. Racism will always exist with the ignorant. A racist can be any color of skin in today' world. We are not a perfect country, but time for everyone to look forward versus what happened a long time ago.

I applaud Leon for his path, I applaud LeBron James for his work ethic to become one of the best BB players (with MJ) of all time. I applaud Obama for becoming the POTUS for not 1, but 2 terms. I am hopeful we will soon see a woman become POTUS, not because she is a woman or the color of her skin, but because the nation feels she is best to run our great country.

I never dismissed his hard work. His forefathers, I'm sure, worked hard to obtain the money to purchase the land as well.  However, he was bragging that no one ever gave his family a thing and that is not true.  He was given, via inheritance, a fully functioning farm with equipment.  Property his family was able to buy at a time when most non-white, non-male citizens were locked out of land purchases.   People like Leon,  apparently don't have the ability to understand that his family benefitted 120 years ago by having an advantage in being able to purchase that land, and as a result, he continues to benefit today by owning property that has increased in value with a great deal of equity.  His ancestor did nothing to obtain that advantage other than being white and male.  Just pointing out facts

[Luvnit2]

(07-03-2023, 10:14 PM)pally Wrote: I never dismissed his hard work. His forefathers, I'm sure, worked hard to obtain the money to purchase the land as well.  However, he was bragging that no one ever gave his family a thing and that is not true.  He was given, via inheritance, a fully functioning farm with equipment.  Property his family was able to buy at a time when most non-white, non-male citizens were locked out of land purchases.   People like Leon,  apparently don't have the ability to understand that his family benefitted 120 years ago by having an advantage in being able to purchase that land, and as a result, he continues to benefit today by owning property that has increased in value with a great deal of equity.  His ancestor did nothing to obtain that advantage other than being white and male.  Just pointing out facts

Do you understand the success rate of any start up business?

Generally, new business success rates are around 10% to 20% over the long term. However, many factors determine potential startup success. The vast majority of owners who run successful startups claim to have relevant qualifications and experience in running their own business, according to Small Business Trends.Mar 16, 2023

How about second generation business owners?

Passing the baton isn't always easy: Only about 30 percent of family businesses survive into the second generation.Jun 12, 2018

I am guessing Leon is successful because he learned the farm business with a hands on approach. I am guessing he was not paid big bucks each year, he was likely underpaid and over worked by his parents. Why? It is not easy to keep a farm afloat and farming is not exactly a business most people become millionaires overnight.

I just fail to understand people like you use racist commentary for white people. He can't change the color of his skin. It appears for every Leon who takes over a business from family, 7 out of 10 fail. Those are facts. I find it amusing you also dismiss the fact white people are also born into poverty.

The poverty rate for native born and naturalized whites is identical (9.6%).

Poverty Rates for Blacks and Hispanics Reached Historic ...


Census Bureau (.gov)
https://www.census.gov › library › stories › 2020/09
Sep 15, 2020 — The poverty rate for Blacks was 18.8%; for Hispanics, it was 15.7%. The historically low poverty rates for Blacks and Hispanics in 2019 reflect ...

These numbers suggest blacks and hispanics income is on the rise which is a good thing. Yes, whites are still better, but 9.6% of white people also start in poverty. If you look at actual numbers, more white people are born into poverty as more white people in the US.

As of 2021, White Americans are the racial majority, with non-Hispanic whites representing 59.3% of the population. Hispanic and Latino Americans are the largest ethnic minority, comprising 18.9% of the population, while Black Americans are the largest racial and the second largest ethnic minority, making up 12.6%.
United States/Population
331.9 million (2021)


Do the math, not even close number of white Americans born into poverty is far greater than any of other race.


These are all facts, in reality does white privilege really exist or is it a political football used by the left to push an agenda whites are racists. Feel free to challenge any of the facts I have shown. Blacks are the second largest ethnic group behind Hispanic and Latino Americans. This little known fact is very important, but rarely discussed. 

Happy 4th of July everyone and I am proud to be an American who lives in an imperfect country and world. I hope all of us have goals to be a better person each day. I hope Americans can learn to love their country again as polls many no longer love their country.

[*pally*]

You act like the massive difference in poverty levels among the races is just a coincidence. and that generational opportunities provided to whites that were not available to blacks and Hispanics had nothing to do with it.

You and Leon are poster children for today's Republican Party...and I know...you're proud of it.

We are supposed to teach our children actual history so they don't repeat the wrongs. MAGA wants their fantasy history taught so that the wrongs continue

[Luvnit2]

(07-04-2023, 01:17 PM)pally Wrote: You act like the massive difference in poverty levels among the races is just a coincidence. and that generational opportunities provided to whites that were not available to blacks and Hispanics had nothing to do with it.

You and Leon are poster children for today's Republican Party...and I know...you're proud of it.

We are supposed to teach our children actual history so they don't repeat the wrongs.  MAGA wants their fantasy history taught so that the wrongs continue

I gave you facts. Simple math, more white people are poor than black people in the US. Please find facts that support your hyperbole. It appears it is you that has fell into the woe is me liberal agenda. Please tell me how things have worsened the past 20 years for any race in the US? I know the Democratic party feeds on conservatives are racists, yet the facts say things are progressing. How did a black man get elected President in a racist country, not once but twice.

Have you ever noticed more homeless people are white versus black.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/555855/number-of-homeless-people-in-the-us-by-race/

Again these are facts, almost 60,000 more white homeless than black homeless.

I will never say there will ever be no racists in the US and I pray someday they go away. But for you to assume most conservatives are racist is appalling. Conservatives are not racists because they love their country in spite of its faults and feel in today's America, regardless of race or gender, anyone willing to work extremely hard can be successful. Trump created more jobs for blacks and hispanics than any POTUS in history so spare us the liberals have done anything to move black Americans above the poverty line. But, Trump did it in 4 years.

[GMDino]

A higher number of whites may be in poverty...but not a higher percentage:

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

AS of 2021.

But of course one the things that helped all in poverty, the Child Tax Credit, was roundly disliked by the gop and thus ended.  Mainly because republicans tend to vote against their own self interest it seems.

And just like loan forgiveness they will talk about all the poor whites being discriminated against but not want to do anything to help get them out of poverty either.

[hollodero]

(07-04-2023, 03:43 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I gave you facts. Simple math, more white people are poor than black people in the US. Please find facts that support your hyperbole. It appears it is you that has fell into the woe is me liberal agenda. Please tell me how things have worsened the past 20 years for any race in the US? I know the Democratic party feeds on conservatives are racists, yet the facts say things are progressing. How did a black man get elected President in a racist country, not once but twice.

Have you ever noticed more homeless people are white versus black.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/555855/number-of-homeless-people-in-the-us-by-race/

Again these are facts, almost 60,000 more white homeless than black homeless.

But this fact alone can not really serve as an argument that there are no differences in poverty levels between the races. A higher total number of whites live in poverty because there are just many more white people around. The percentages are what matters, not total numbers.

[Luvnit2]

(07-04-2023, 07:02 PM)hollodero Wrote: But this fact alone can not really serve as an argument that there are no differences in poverty levels between the races. A higher total number of whites live in poverty because there are just many more white people around. The percentages are what matters, not total numbers.

The fact remains, more white people in poverty than black people. Liberals seem to think all white people are rich and all black people are poor.

Facts tell us all races have a lot of poor people.