Biden's Paying Illegal Immigrant Families......

[CJD]

(11-01-2021, 05:55 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Quote below kind of kills your entire argument that it's Trump's fault, huh?

I completely forgot about all that!

I believe I actually made a thread (or at least commented) about it!

Quote:Separations under past administrations rare, systematic under Trump

Generally, a child and an adult who arrive together at the border can be separated when border officials cannot establish the custodial relationship; when they believe the custodian may be a threat to the child; or when the custodian is being detained for prosecution.
Immigration experts have told us that family separations were relatively rare under Obama and other past administrations. They did not happen at nearly the scale that they did under the Trump administration.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/jun/21/donald-trump/donald-trump-again-falsely-says-obama-had-family-s/

[Vas Deferens]

(11-01-2021, 05:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe.  Stuff like this is interesting because we want to help people as long as they were born on a certain side of a man-made line in the sand.

Or when the settlement goes into your own pocket.  Me setllement good.  Them settlement bad.

[*Nately120*]

(11-01-2021, 06:02 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/jun/21/donald-trump/donald-trump-again-falsely-says-obama-had-family-s/

No more bullshit, indeed. 

[NATI BENGALS]

So this thread is about the consequences of having a shitty prez? And we are supposed to blame the guy cleaning up the shit and in the bonkers GOP brain it makes sense to fight like hell to get the guy who actually shat on the wall back in power?

Seems par for the GOP course.

[BFritz21]

(11-01-2021, 06:02 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/jun/21/donald-trump/donald-trump-again-falsely-says-obama-had-family-s/

(11-01-2021, 07:11 PM)Nately120 Wrote: No more bullshit, indeed. 

I'm confused.

Does the fact that it happened more under Trump change the fact that it started under Obama?

[CJD]

(11-01-2021, 07:57 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I'm confused.

Does the fact that it happened more under Trump change the fact that it started under Obama?

Nope. Both presidents were unethical with their immigration practices. 

But, like with most things when comparing Trump and trash democrats, Trump was just worse. 

Plus it is my understanding that Obama generally only separated children in the "dangerous" cases (like when it was suspected the adult was a smuggler or the child was otherwise unsafe) while Trump just did it more as a punishment for the parents and deterrent. 

Again, intent matters.  

Plus, based on the context and timing of these lawsuits, it's likely they occurred under Trump, not Obama.

" (the Journal reported about 940 claims have been filed). And, crucially, it involves alleged emotional distress inflicted upon children who were separated from their parents for lengthy periods of time — the kinds of things that are difficult to put a dollar amount on."

[Goalpost]

(11-01-2021, 08:01 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Nope. Both presidents were unethical with their immigration practices. 

But, like with most things when comparing Trump and trash democrats, Trump was just worse. 

Plus it is my understanding that Obama generally only separated children in the "dangerous" cases (like when it was suspected the adult was a smuggler or the child was otherwise unsafe) while Trump just did it more as a punishment for the parents and deterrent. 

Again, intent matters.  

Plus, based on the context and timing of these lawsuits, it's likely they occurred under Trump, not Obama.

" (the Journal reported about 940 claims have been filed). And, crucially, it involves alleged emotional distress inflicted upon children who were separated from their parents for lengthy periods of time — the kinds of things that are difficult to put a dollar amount on."

The Department of Homeland Security, which oversees border enforcement, previously told PolitiFact that Obama’s administration did not count the number of separated families.

It’s unclear exactly how many children were separated from their parents during Trump’s administration, which has acknowledged problems in its logistics and record-keeping. 


 Statistics are apparently omitted, or aren't known, in this conclusion.

[CJD]

(11-01-2021, 08:17 PM)Goalpost Wrote: The Department of Homeland Security, which oversees border enforcement, previously told PolitiFact that Obama’s administration did not count the number of separated families.

It’s unclear exactly how many children were separated from their parents during Trump’s administration, which has acknowledged problems in its logistics and record-keeping. 


 Statistics are apparently omitted, or aren't known, in this conclusion.

True. There are not hard numbers from either administration. Are you contesting that Trump did it significantly more than Obama? 

[BFritz21]

(11-01-2021, 08:01 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Nope. Both presidents were unethical with their immigration practices. 

But, like with most things when comparing Trump and trash democrats, Trump was just worse. 

Plus it is my understanding that Obama generally only separated children in the "dangerous" cases (like when it was suspected the adult was a smuggler or the child was otherwise unsafe) while Trump just did it more as a punishment for the parents and deterrent. 

Again, intent matters.  

Plus, based on the context and timing of these lawsuits, it's likely they occurred under Trump, not Obama.

" (the Journal reported about 940 claims have been filed). And, crucially, it involves alleged emotional distress inflicted upon children who were separated from their parents for lengthy periods of time — the kinds of things that are difficult to put a dollar amount on."

(11-01-2021, 08:17 PM)Goalpost Wrote: The Department of Homeland Security, which oversees border enforcement, previously told PolitiFact that Obama’s administration did not count the number of separated families.

It’s unclear exactly how many children were separated from their parents during Trump’s administration, which has acknowledged problems in its logistics and record-keeping. 


 Statistics are apparently omitted, or aren't known, in this conclusion.

BEAUTIFUL!

People post base off of emotion too much and then just keep doubling down with false information like posting things with rhetorical language will somehow scare me into just accepting what they post. 

[CJD]

(11-01-2021, 08:30 PM)BFritz21 Wrote:

BEAUTIFUL!

People post base off of emotion too much and then just keep doubling down with false information like posting things with rhetorical language will somehow scare me into just accepting what they post. 

Quote:The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services’ inspector general released a report in January noting that, “historically” such family “separations were rare and occurred because of circumstances such as the parent’s medical emergency or a determination that the parent was a threat to the child’s safety.”

Quote:But, the report notes, that changed as a result of the Trump administration’s “zero tolerance” policy last spring. The Department of Homeland Security “separated large numbers of alien families, with adults being held in Federal detention while their children were transferred to the care of the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) within the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS),” according to the report.

Quote:That report also said the department had “thus far identified 2,737 children in its care at that time who were separated from their parents. However, thousands of children may have been separated during an influx that began in 2017 … and HHS has faced challenges in identifying separated children.” The government is under a court order to identify other children who had been separated, but either way, we know the total far surpasses the 1,900 figure used in the meme.

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/08/falsehoods-about-family-separations-linger-online/

I encourage you to read the report that the HHS released, linked in that article. 

Just because we don't have exact numbers for each administration doesn't mean that we don't have a good idea of who did it more. It's settled fact that Trump separated families more. And it makes perfect sense why.

Trump prosecuted most people who crossed the border, whether they had children with them or not. When an adult is prosecuted, they have to be separated from their children as they can't be jailed together under current laws. 

Obama did not prosecute as many illegal crossers and he usually gave exception to those that came with children. 

Using simple deduction, you can come to the conclusion that Trump separated more families than Obama. Plus, you know, all the experts affirm that conclusion. 

No emotion here other than your irrational attempts to justify Trump's treatment of fellow human beings. 

[BFritz21]

(11-01-2021, 08:38 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: https://www.factcheck.org/2019/08/falsehoods-about-family-separations-linger-online/

I encourage you to read the report that the HHS released, linked in that article. 

Just because we don't have exact numbers for each administration doesn't mean that we don't have a good idea of who did it more. It's settled fact that Trump separated families more. And it makes perfect sense why.

Trump prosecuted most people who crossed the border, whether they had children with them or not. When an adult is prosecuted, they have to be separated from their children as they can't be jailed together under current laws. 

Obama did not prosecute as many illegal crossers and he usually gave exception to those that came with children. 

Using simple deduction, you can come to the conclusion that Trump separated more families than Obama. Plus, you know, all the experts affirm that conclusion. 

No emotion here other than your irrational attempts to justify Trump's treatment of fellow human beings. 

So you're not arguing that Obama started it? Maybe more were apprehended and separated under Trump because immigrants know how cruel Obama was and thought they could get away with it under Trump?

That sounds right.

Good call!

[CJD]

(11-01-2021, 08:45 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: So you're not arguing that Obama started it? Maybe more were apprehended and separated under Trump because immigrants know how cruel Obama was and thought they could get away with it under Trump?

That sounds right.

Good call!

...no, I'm not arguing that Obama started it. It was probably started several administrations ago. In order for a family to be separated one of three hings had to happen:

1. The adult was prosecuted and thus the child must be separated from the adult.
2. Someone in immigration services suspected that the child was not safe under the care of the adult. This may have been due to suspicions of human trafficking or just typical child endangerment and abuse being evident. 
3. The adult or child had a medical emergency. 

So it likely happened in every administration since border control became an issue.

The Big difference is Trump made crossing the border a crime in any circumstance. Which led to more of #1, which led to more separations. 

[*Nately120*]

(11-01-2021, 07:57 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I'm confused.

Does the fact that it happened more under Trump change the fact that it started under Obama?

F*** Obama. 

[Belsnickel]

I love wasting my time typing out logical and coherent reasonings for something our government is doing only for the thread to continue down a rabbit hole of ****ery.

Had to censor my own damn f-bomb because that is apparently not a recognized word.

[jmccracky]

(11-02-2021, 09:05 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I love wasting my time typing out logical and coherent reasonings for something our government is doing only for the thread to continue down a rabbit hole of ****ery.

Had to censor my own damn f-bomb because that is apparently not a recognized word.

I read it as having a D and pronounced like hickory.

[*Nately120*]

(11-02-2021, 09:37 AM)jmccracky Wrote: I read it as having a D and pronounced like hickory.

Is that word from the nursery rhyme about the mouse and the clock taboo now?  Then again, some of those old rhymes throw the word ***** around a lot.  I have a mildly amusing story of using that outdated word as a kid.  

[Goalpost]

(11-01-2021, 08:25 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: True. There are not hard numbers from either administration. Are you contesting that Trump did it significantly more than Obama? 

He probably did.  The reason I jumped into this thread was to acknowledge this happened before Trump.  I'm not certain where to place blame to be honest.  With 450,000 in a remedy....I'm reminded of a certain television series where people encounter other lives.  They do so under a 'prime directive'.  And the 'captain' sometimes has to explain why they have it.  It's to protect them, not the people they encounter.  Someone who passes through our country, plausibly wrongly, has resulted in a cost to us, which is what the thread is about imo.  That's money that doesn't go to this country's people.  Just take it out of miscellaneous funds, I guess.

[CJD]

(11-02-2021, 10:42 AM)Goalpost Wrote: He probably did.  The reason I jumped into this thread was to acknowledge this happened before Trump.  I'm not certain where to place blame to be honest.  With 450,000 in a remedy....I'm reminded of a certain television series where people encounter other lives.  They do so under a 'prime directive'.  And the 'captain' sometimes has to explain why they have it.  It's to protect them, not the people they encounter.  Someone who passes through our country, plausibly wrongly, has resulted in a cost to us, which is what the thread is about imo.  That's money that doesn't go to this country's people.  Just take it out of miscellaneous funds, I guess.

They resulted in a cost to us due to the mistreatment they experienced once they got here. It's not like there was a line outside America where each immigrant that walks into the country is being handed $450,000. There was an intermediate step there that was completely unnecessary and extremely neglectful and harmful.

The good news is that, with our current governmental structure, that money was likely never going to go to this country's people anyway. It'll probably just be added to the total debt this country has that's become so comically large that it basically doesn't even matter anymore.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-02-2021, 09:05 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I love wasting my time typing out logical and coherent reasonings for something our government is doing only for the thread to continue down a rabbit hole of ****ery.

Had to censor my own damn f-bomb because that is apparently not a recognized word.

Agreed.  Sadly, I don't see much desire for an actual debate/discussion from those who claim to desire it either.  I took a week or so off after Hollo correctly called me out for making things personal with a certain poster on a regular basis.  I resolved to restrict myself to fact based discussion of an argument rather than expressing my personal feelings on the person posting.  Well, we saw how well that went in the Rittenhouse thread.  Not one single attempt to discuss the fact based position I advanced, not one.  No response to articles posted that clarified or refuted points made.  It really looks like this place has become an echo chamber for some and a place to swing at low hanging fruit for others.  

[CJD]

(11-02-2021, 01:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Agreed.  Sadly, I don't see much desire for an actual debate/discussion from those who claim to desire it either.  I took a week or so off after Hollo correctly called me out for making things personal with a certain poster on a regular basis.  I resolved to restrict myself to fact based discussion of an argument rather than expressing my personal feelings on the person posting.  Well, we saw how well that went in the Rittenhouse thread.  Not one single attempt to discuss the fact based position I advanced, not one.  No response to articles posted that clarified or refuted points made.  It really looks like this place has become an echo chamber for some and a place to swing at low hanging fruit for others.  

I feel like this forum is closer to Smack Talk than Jungle Noise. You come in here more to dunk on the other side when you perceive something bad for their reputation has occurred and not so much to come up with the right path forward.

If people here are actually looking for discussion or debate, I haven't really seen it that much. Most people do not have intentions to debate their strongly held beliefs. If anything, they hope to convert others.

I do think there are certain things that are factually driven, but even those can be hard fought battles in this forum. It can be tiring sometimes. I don't know why I still come here haha.