Biden's Press Conference!

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(09-02-2020, 12:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: George Floyd failed to follow numerous instructions
Elijah McCain resisted arrest
Philando Castille failed to follow LEO's instructions to not reach for his gun

Hell, you cannot remember the shooting that started the BLM movement?

Taylor was killed because of a flawed law that had just been changed. If the lawe said only "no knock" on black folks door you might have a problem.

But let me ask you a question and I respect your candor enough to take it for your true answer.

Do you think Leo's are more apt to shoot someone because they are black or because they fail to follow instructions. 

I feel like all this civil unrest and general hate towards cops is only going to increase failure to follow orders and to be honest I’m surprised that the majority of cops have not just quit at this point. At least the ones in the cities. Basically if you do your job you can get fired and your life ruined and if you don’t do your job you could be dead. Or if not that then what’s the point of having a cop that’s not upholding the law.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(09-02-2020, 01:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't disagree with what you're saying here, for the most part. I would argue that if the Democrats running those cities really tried to crack down on things they would also be called fascists, which is why they aren't acting. My question to you is, though, do you think it is ridiculous to try to claim that this is "Biden's America" as Trump has tried to say?

Clearly the country is divided. And the vote was 51/49 or whatever in individual votes for Hillary. The President isn’t the end all be all of what happens in America otherwise he would be more of a King. I think America was doing well and honestly the Democrats are going to fan the flames as hard as they can to make America in general look worse and worse so they can get what they want during elections. You don’t see this crap happening much at all outside of Democrat run areas.

And to be fair I believe this is two elections in a row where we do not have a good candidate on either side.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-31-2020, 10:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Personal attacks are against the CoC when some people do them. (FWIW, you just displayed a lack of ignoring them)

There's absolutely 0 trolling. The post you quoted was in response to someone introducing Trump and his supporters into the discussion which had 0 to do with the OP. The OP (Original Post) made no such comparison, but folks couldn't discuss Biden's comments on their own merit. 

My point is folks are bringing up Trump to mitigate Biden's comments. You can agree with that or not. But don't feign aloofness and insult others. 

Oh, bullshit.  You've spammed multiple threads asking for a friend if this is whataboutism.  And you keep saying that word, but I don't think you know what it means.  That's trolling.

(09-01-2020, 03:11 AM)Dill Wrote: Looks like Bfritz is implicitly comparing Biden to Trump when he asserts it is sad people might vote him president.

This is exactly right.  In military planning you have specified tasks and you have implied tasks.  Conducting a raid is a specified task.  You'll need to bring your weapon along to conduct the raid is an implied tasks.  They don't tell you to bring your weapon because it is an implied task you need to do to complete the specified task.  They don't tell you to load the rounds into your magazine. That's another implied task to conduct a raid. I would expect you to know this. But, sadly too many military guys have a difficult time recognizing implied tasks if they aren't spoon fed the information.

Brad's second sentence states, "It's sad that people might actually vote this guy in as President!" What's the specified task? Vote.  What's the implied task? Figuring out who you're going to vote for and who you won't vote for.  How do you do that? By learning about the candidate's stance on various issues and comparing them to each other.  Or do you think we casts votes blindly?
Not to mention, Brad already has well established history of comparing Trump's and Biden's speech as an indicator of mental fitness.  Folks would have to be dumb or trolling not to recognize the already existing connection.  And you're not dumb. Which leaves trolling . . . 

Are we going to spend 10 pages on this like we did with windmill noise cancer?

[BmorePat87]

(09-02-2020, 12:22 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Maybe half.

Jacob Blake obviously wasn't.

Tamir Rice was shot very quickly but he didn't immediately show his hands, so I guess you could say he wasn't following commands. He was also 12 years old.

Breonna Taylor was asleep so you can't put her in that category. Her boyfriend shot at the cops but he clearly thought they were people breaking into the apartment (which they were legally or otherwise).

There was Atatiana Jefferson who was killed in her own home during a welfare check because the cop seemingly mistook her for a burglar. The cop claimed he identified himself but I think his body cam showed he shot within a second of identifying himself so...
He was arrested though, so that's nice.

George Floyd was obviously on something and was panicking when put into the back seat of the car and then was choked to death. I guess you could interpret his panicking as not following the cop's commands.

Philando Castille told the cop that he had a gun and then the cop basically panicked and executed him. So you can't really put him in this category.

From what I recall, John Crawford was shot before he even realized the cops were there. I'd have to watch the tape to see if I'm misremembering this. But I don't think he is a case of not following commands. 

Elijah McClain was walking home and was approached by cops. You could probably qualify what he did as resisting arrest, since he was clearly panicking because he was approached by police when he did nothing wrong.

That's just the ones I can recall from memory. You can find a list of the victims here with articles describing the murders if you're interested to learn more:
https://sayevery.name/say-their-names-list

EDIT: actually, it seems like only the ones on their front page link the articles. I guess the others are too far ranging to aggregate articles for all of them.:
https://sayevery.name/

It's a shitty game they get to play, "they resisted". Someone like Elijah McClain, who fits the profile of someone on the spectrum, is confronted and grabbed by police. As soon as someone who hasn't done a thing wrong has a normal, not at all malicious, reaction to that physical contact, they're accused of "resisting". 

A 5 foot 6, buck forty kid walking down the street dancing a bit to music, and they're manhandling him as he's vomiting and crying that he can't breathe. This kid is having an uncontrollable reaction to being thrown to the ground and restrained. 


The car was still moving before Rice was shot. They tackled his sister as she ran to her dying brother. 

Castile tries to let the cops know that he carries a gun, he's trying to be responsible, and they shoot him as he tries to go for his ID as they asked for. The cop responds to him saying that he had a gun with "Okay, don't reach for it, then ... don't pull it out." Castile says "I'm not pulling it out". He wasn't going for his gun, his hand had been on his wallet. The cop may have meant, don't go for the wallet either, but that's unclear and the end result is a dead man who at no point threatened anyone. He had been pulled over because he had a "wide nose" like a suspect they were looking for...

George Floyd was erratic but not violent. He was on something, but he didn't need a knee on his neck for 8 minutes. What he did was irrelevant to that fact.

[CJD]

(09-02-2020, 12:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: George Floyd failed to follow numerous instructions
Elijah McCain resisted arrest
Philando Castille failed to follow LEO's instructions to not reach for his gun

Hell, you cannot remember the shooting that started the BLM movement?

Taylor was killed because of a flawed law that had just been changed. If the lawe said only "no knock" on black folks door you might have a problem.

But let me ask you a question and I respect your candor enough to take it for your true answer.

Do you think Leo's are more apt to shoot someone because they are black or because they fail to follow instructions. 

Like I said, George Floyd and Elijah McClain likely fall into the camp of "not obeying commands" because they were both panicking.

For Philando Castile, as far as I know we only have dash cam and audio. We don't have video of the inside of the car. So when he tells the officer that he has a gun  the police officer told him not to pull it out. Philando said he isn't. And then the cop killed him. 

Was he reaching for something as he was saying that? In the video, you can see Philando's head shape through the back window and it didn't angle down or even turn away from the cop. You can note the difference between that occurrence and when he asked for Philando's license and insurance, where you can clearly see Philando's head arch down as he was fishing out his documents. So I find it highly unlikely he was doing anything other than looking at and talking to the cop. 

Besides that, the idea that a person would tell the cop they have a gun before taking it out, presumably to kill the police officer, is so absurd that I don't think we need to explore whether or not that was actually what he was doing. If he intended to shoot anyone, he definitely would not have told them that. What's vastly more likely is that the cop simply panicked when he heard that he had a gun and killed him out of fear.

I guess you could say he "missed a 3 foot putt."

But I digress. 

To answer your question, I think LEOs shoot people when they perceive there to be a threat to their lives. This is often in the form of failing to follow instructions, but I think race has a hand in it as well. There is undeniably a cognitive bias that black men are "more dangerous" than white men and I think LEOs approach them with more caution instinctively. You can see it with the George Floyd body cam where the cop pulls his gun within seconds of George opening his car door, when the only reason the police were called seemed to be a counterfeit bill. This inherent fear/caution/apprehension to dealing with black people seems to be a major contributor to the black men being killed during their interaction with police.

I don't think this is a LEO only problem either. There is the often cited occurrence of people crossing the street when they see a black man at night or clutching their purse as they pass etc. It's so ingrained in our culture I find it hard to believe anyone hasn't heard or experienced it directly, regardless of race.

If not following LEOs commands resulted in people being shot, there'd be so many dead people. So I don't think it is in your or my interest to set that standard that we should always obey LEOs in every single circumstance or else risk being shot. Police should be able to assess situations for their actual level of danger and act accordingly. The stories that reach the national news fail that test in almost every regard.

[Millhouse]

(08-31-2020, 03:10 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: The difference is that Trump had a plan and was and is mentally stable and competent. 

How can someone be mentally stable and competent when they reject the entire world of science on humans negatively impacting climate change?

[Belsnickel]

(09-02-2020, 01:16 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Clearly the country is divided. And the vote was 51/49 or whatever in individual votes for Hillary. The President isn’t the end all be all of what happens in America otherwise he would be more of a King. I think America was doing well and honestly the Democrats are going to fan the flames as hard as they can to make America in general look worse and worse so they can get what they want during elections. You don’t see this crap happening much at all outside of Democrat run areas.

And to be fair I believe this is two elections in a row where we do not have a good candidate on either side.

So is that a yes or no?

[Belsnickel]

(09-02-2020, 01:23 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Oh, bullshit.  You've spammed multiple threads asking for a friend if this is whataboutism.  And you keep saying that word, but I don't think you know what it means.  That's trolling.

Which was in itself a violation of the CoC. But yeah.

[Dill]

(09-02-2020, 01:23 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Brad's second sentence states, "It's sad that people might actually vote this guy in as President!" What's the specified task? Vote.  What's the implied task? Figuring out who you're going to vote for and who you won't vote for.  How do you do that? By learning about the candidate's stance on various issues and comparing them to each other.  Or do you think we casts votes blindly?
Not to mention, Brad already has well established history of comparing Trump's and Biden's speech as an indicator of mental fitness.  Folks would have to be dumb or trolling not to recognize the already existing connection.  And you're not dumb. Which leaves trolling . . . 

Are we going to spend 10 pages on this like we did with windmill noise cancer?

Excellent analogy.

[Dill]

(09-02-2020, 01:16 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Clearly the country is divided. And the vote was 51/49 or whatever in individual votes for Hillary. The President isn’t the end all be all of what happens in America otherwise he would be more of a King. I think America was doing well and honestly the Democrats are going to fan the flames as hard as they can to make America in general look worse and worse so they can get what they want during elections. You don’t see this crap happening much at all outside of Democrat run areas.

And to be fair I believe this is two elections in a row where we do not have a good candidate on either side.

Did you watch the RNC?  "Cities burning" "They're coming for you in the suburbs" ring a bell?

Why wouldn't you say that Republicans are "going to fan the flames as hard as they can to make America in general look worse and worse so they can get what they want during elections"?

[NATI BENGALS]

(09-02-2020, 01:16 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Clearly the country is divided. And the vote was 51/49 or whatever in individual votes for Hillary. The President isn’t the end all be all of what happens in America otherwise he would be more of a King. I think America was doing well and honestly the Democrats are going to fan the flames as hard as they can to make America in general look worse and worse so they can get what they want during elections. You don’t see this crap happening much at all outside of Democrat run areas.

And to be fair I believe this is two elections in a row where we do not have a good candidate on either side.

Do you think the leader of our country has any responsibility for the things that happen in the country he is the leader of?

And also. What did maga mean? If you want to talk about fanning the flames and making America look bad...

Somehow trumps America is on fire and instead of assigning any blame to the lifelong conman who took office shortly after settling a lawsuit for one of his many cons who lives on hyper partisan tabloid headlines and ratings who has promoted police brutality and division who has supporters who proudly display the flag of traitors and nazis. Faux news told us to blame democrats so we will... ah makes sense.

[Big Boss]

(09-02-2020, 09:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: And none of this changes the fact that this isn't "Biden's America," because Biden isn't the president. Inept leadership at the local, state, and national level is responsible for the damage and destruction that is going on, and not just the current leadership but decades of people failing to address the systemic issues in a meaningful way. I do not, have not, and will not blame this all on Trump because he doesn't own it. He hasn't helped things out much and I do think he has stoked the flames more, but I have said for a long time that he is a product of our systems and not the cause of our problems. It's ridiculous to blame Trump for all this, and it is even more ridiculous to try to claim this is Biden's doing.

Very fair assessment.

I hate Donald Trump with a passion, but even I know better than to throw this entire situation squarely at his feet.  Can I criticize his response to it, and the fact that he seems to be fanning the flames more than anything?  Absolutely.  But systemic racism and police brutality have existed long before him, and they will continue to exist after he's gone.  These are issues bigger than the president alone.

At the same time, these are events transpiring under Trump's presidency.  Right here, right now, in "his" America.  Trying to paint this as "Biden's America" is desperately pathetic.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-02-2020, 01:33 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's a shitty game they get to play, "they resisted". Someone like Elijah McClain, who fits the profile of someone on the spectrum, is confronted and grabbed by police. As soon as someone who hasn't done a thing wrong has a normal, not at all malicious, reaction to that physical contact, they're accused of "resisting". 

A 5 foot 6, buck forty kid walking down the street dancing a bit to music, and they're manhandling him as he's vomiting and crying that he can't breathe. This kid is having an uncontrollable reaction to being thrown to the ground and restrained. 


The car was still moving before Rice was shot. They tackled his sister as she ran to her dying brother. 

Castile tries to let the cops know that he carries a gun, he's trying to be responsible, and they shoot him as he tries to go for his ID as they asked for. The cop responds to him saying that he had a gun with "Okay, don't reach for it, then ... don't pull it out." Castile says "I'm not pulling it out". He wasn't going for his gun, his hand had been on his wallet. The cop may have meant, don't go for the wallet either, but that's unclear and the end result is a dead man who at no point threatened anyone. He had been pulled over because he had a "wide nose" like a suspect they were looking for...

George Floyd was erratic but not violent. He was on something, but he didn't need a knee on his neck for 8 minutes. What he did was irrelevant to that fact.

George Floyd was already in the police vehicle when the police removed him before kneeling on his neck until the killed him.

[CJD]

(09-02-2020, 01:33 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's a shitty game they get to play, "they resisted". Someone like Elijah McClain, who fits the profile of someone on the spectrum, is confronted and grabbed by police. As soon as someone who hasn't done a thing wrong has a normal, not at all malicious, reaction to that physical contact, they're accused of "resisting". 

A 5 foot 6, buck forty kid walking down the street dancing a bit to music, and they're manhandling him as he's vomiting and crying that he can't breathe. This kid is having an uncontrollable reaction to being thrown to the ground and restrained. 


The car was still moving before Rice was shot. They tackled his sister as she ran to her dying brother. 

Castile tries to let the cops know that he carries a gun, he's trying to be responsible, and they shoot him as he tries to go for his ID as they asked for. The cop responds to him saying that he had a gun with "Okay, don't reach for it, then ... don't pull it out." Castile says "I'm not pulling it out". He wasn't going for his gun, his hand had been on his wallet. The cop may have meant, don't go for the wallet either, but that's unclear and the end result is a dead man who at no point threatened anyone. He had been pulled over because he had a "wide nose" like a suspect they were looking for...

George Floyd was erratic but not violent. He was on something, but he didn't need a knee on his neck for 8 minutes. What he did was irrelevant to that fact.

Yea, I hate playing that game. But ultimately, if that is what it takes to engage someone from the other side, I think it's worth dispelling the misinformation and focusing the topic to the cop's actions rather than the victims', as the cops' actions are the ones we can actually change and alter with policy and funding. 

[*bfine32*]

(09-02-2020, 03:14 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: George Floyd was already in the police vehicle when the police removed him before kneeling on his neck until the killed him.

Why was Floyd placed in the Police Car?

As I knew, folks would try to turn this into "So it's ok to kill them". The simple fact is someone being questioned/detained by the police but themselves and the Officers at higher risk when they fail to comply with instructions.

But no one talks about this as a way to mitigate these shootings; it's always because 'Leo's like to shoot black folk". If folks really believe lives matter, to include black Lives, that would be trying to educate them on how to avoid such confrontations instead of fanning flames.

But where's the political gain in that?

[GMDino]

(09-02-2020, 04:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why was Floyd placed in the Police Car?

As I knew, folks would try to turn this into "So it's ok to kill them". The simple fact is someone being questioned/detained by the police but themselves and the Officers at higher risk when they fail to comply with instructions.

But no one talks about this as a way to mitigate these shootings; it's always because 'Leo's like to shoot black folk". If folks really believe lives matter, to include black Lives, that would be trying to educate them on how to avoid such confrontations instead of fanning flames.

But where's the political gain in that?

And there have been multiple examples given of those who were complying who also ended up shot, dead, etc.

But why worry about the real reason for the protests when we can use tired catch phrases about "don't resist".

[*bfine32*]

(09-02-2020, 04:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: And there have been multiple examples given of those who were complying who also ended up shot, dead, etc.

But why worry about the real reason for the protests when we can use tired catch phrases about "don't resist".

I've seen one given; Brianna Taylor, and she's the only one the Leo's were not targeting. 

Not one person has said don't worry about the "real reason" of the protests. Because that would be a thread unto itself as I could give you many examples of why the protest/loot/riot.

But if we know that failing to follow an officers directives puts your life at greter risk why wouldn't we want to push that? Is the goal to be "black folks should be able to not follow LEO's instructions".

BLM was founded on a lie "hands up, don't shot", put people perpetrate that same lie daily.

[GMDino]

(09-02-2020, 05:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've seen one given; Brianna Taylor, and she's the only one the Leo's were not targeting. 

Not one person has said don't worry about the "real reason" of the protests. Because that would be a thread unto itself as I could give you many examples of why the protest/loot/riot.

But if we know that failing to follow an officers directives puts your life at greter risk why wouldn't we want to push that? Is the goal to be "black folks should be able to not follow LEO's instructions".

BLM was founded on a lie "hands up, don't shot", put people perpetrate that same lie daily.

BLM continues because of cases like Taylor's and all the others listed where "complying" still got them shot or killed.

[*bfine32*]

(09-02-2020, 01:23 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Oh, bullshit.  You've spammed multiple threads asking for a friend if this is whataboutism.  And you keep saying that word, but I don't think you know what it means.  That's trolling.

I asked once if responses to the OP and then had a discussion with a few folks about what exactly is considered whataboutisim.

If I consider whataboutisim to be whataboutisim and folks disagree that is NOT trolling.

[*bfine32*]

(09-02-2020, 05:14 PM)GMDino Wrote: BLM continues because of cases like Taylor's and all the others listed where "complying" still got them shot or killed.

Sure it also continues because of why it was founded...lies.