Biden's Press Conference!

[GMDino]

(09-02-2020, 08:42 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I'm sure there's data from Stormfront out there that can be provided to justify arresting innocent black people. 

 

[BigPapaKain]

(09-02-2020, 05:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I just looked at the first name on your list. Thanks. 

That sounds about right.

[BigPapaKain]

(09-02-2020, 06:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Lorenzo Jones was not shot, and the use of force against him was found within policy.

Danquirs Franklin is not so clear cut, there are accounts that the gun was pointed towards the officers.

The other are inexcusable.  Quite honestly the most egregious example I've ever seen is the Daniel Shaver one.

The cops choking George Floyd were found to be within policy, too.

Until the world decided to say **** that.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-02-2020, 10:07 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: The cops choking George Floyd were found to be within policy, too.

Until the world decided to say **** that.

Uh, I don't recall it ever being stated that what that officer did to George Floyd was within policy.  Source?

[GMDino]

(09-02-2020, 10:10 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Uh, I don't recall it ever being stated that what that officer did to George Floyd was within policy.  Source?

Uh....

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/29/george-floyd-experts-say-neck-restraint-allowed-minneapolis-can-kill/5274334002/

Quote:Minneapolis is an outlier in allowing neck restraints

Most police departments in the U.S. don't allow neck restraints, said Andrew Scott, an expert witness on the use of force and former police chief of Boca Raton, Florida.


Minneapolis does. Its manual allows "compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway."



That's allowed in order to control someone with "light to moderate pressure" or "with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure." The latter act is authorized only to protect officer lives with a suspect who is "actively aggressive" and cannot be controlled by lesser methods.

Scott said he's shocked that's allowed.



"I have never seen an agency in writing promote that type of force in such a critical area that is so susceptible to damage or death," Scott said, "and I’ve traveled the country and seen many use of force policies."


Tom Aveni, an ex-cop and co-founder of the Police Policy Studies Council, has trained law enforcement officers since 1983. "I have not seen anyone teach the use of a knee to the neck," he said.


Moreover, the Minneapolis Police Department's policy uses outdated terminology, Scott said. There's no such thing as a "non-deadly" force option. The proper terminology is "less-lethal," Scott said, which recognizes that force has potential to kill if misused.


"Law enforcement has realized over the years that any type of force could potentially kill somebody — even too much pepper spray," Scott said.


At police academies across the country, officers typically receive about 40 hours of training on use of force, Scott and Peters said. But officers should also go through annual training.


The Minnesota Professional Peace Officer Education System said in a statement Wednesday that the tactics seen in the video "do not appear to reflect the training that students receive."

The Police Officers Federation of Minneapolis and a Minneapolis police spokesman did not respond Thursday to requests for comment.


Officer training programs became a point of tension in Minneapolis last year when Mayor Jacob Frey banned officers from taking "warrior-style" training courses, saying it encourages officers to adopt a survivalist mindset at odds with fostering community trust.


The police union said it would work with a national group to offer the training anyway, the Star-Tribune reported.

[Benton]

(09-02-2020, 10:10 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Uh, I don't recall it ever being stated that what that officer did to George Floyd was within policy.  Source?

"The manual of the Minneapolis Police Department states that neck restraints and chokeholds are basically reserved for when an officer feels caught in a life-or-death situation. There was no apparent threat of that nature in Mr. Floyd’s detention."


From a nyt article. On my phone, I'll try to link later. From that and other articles,standing on someone's neck is in policy, but leaves that giant gray area of "when they feel threatened."

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-02-2020, 10:34 PM)Benton Wrote: "The manual of the Minneapolis Police Department states that neck restraints and chokeholds are basically reserved for when an officer feels caught in a life-or-death situation. There was no apparent threat of that nature in Mr. Floyd’s detention."


From a nyt article. On my phone, I'll try to link later. From that and other articles,standing on someone's neck is in policy, but leaves that giant gray area of "when they feel threatened."

Thank you, this was much more informative than that provided above.  Seeing as how he was on Floyd's neck for over eight minutes, Floyd hadn't resisted for some time and he had three officers backing him up I'd say this restraint was not covered by policy.

Noe one has yet covered my question though, what police official, or other official, made the assertion that the Floyd restrain was within policy?

[Benton]

(09-02-2020, 10:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Thank you, this was much more informative than that provided above.  Seeing as how he was on Floyd's neck for over eight minutes, Floyd hadn't resisted for some time and he had three officers backing him up I'd say this restraint was not covered by policy.

Noe one has yet covered my question though, what police official, or other official, made the assertion that the Floyd restrain was within policy?

Oh, as far as an official saying it was "legal" I can't recall. 

If only there was someone to be held accountable for his officers' training. Maybe someone who was ultimately responsible for department policy?



I get what you're saying, but the chain of command is ultimately responsible for the actions of staff. There were multiple complaints against the department for the technique. There were multiple complaints against some of the officers involved for excessive force (although I can't say if there were previous complaints against the officers involved for that technique, I've never heard). As long as leadership passively accepts incidents, those maneuvers will continue to be used.

Cobra Kai students used distasteful tactics. Johnny Lawrence found out and shut that down. Police officials should be more like Johnny Lawrence.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-02-2020, 11:58 PM)Benton Wrote: Oh, as far as an official saying it was "legal" I can't recall.

Not legal, although it should certainly be that as well, but within policy. 

Quote:If only there was someone to be held accountable for his officers' training. Maybe someone who was ultimately responsible for department policy?

That would be the City Council for a city police department.  Unless things are done differently in MN.

Quote:I get what you're saying, but the chain of command is ultimately responsible for the actions of staff. There were multiple complaints against the department for the technique. There were multiple complaints against some of the officers involved for excessive force (although I can't say if there were previous complaints against the officers involved for that technique, I've never heard). As long as leadership passively accepts incidents, those maneuvers will continue to be used.

Err, yes and no.  Higher ups can't be responsible for the every day actions of the rank and file.  What I mean by this is if, using me as an example, say I approve the time card of an officer who falsifies his information.  Unless I was in a position that I should have known the time card contained fraudulent information it is not a fault on my part when I approve it.  As to the previous complaints, that's another matter.  LEO's can accrue false complaints, especially when a certain group (i.e. gangs etc.) decides they're causing them too much trouble and organize mass complaints, so you do have to adequately investigate them before making any determination.  But then you run into the issue of how effective such investigations are.

Quote:Cobra Kai students used distasteful tactics. Johnny Lawrence found out and shut that down. Police officials should be more like Johnny Lawrence.

This reminds me, I really have to watch that show.  Seeing William Zabka as a good guy for once (as opposed to Karate Kid, Just One of the Guys (a classic!), and Back to School) will be very interesting.  He was the villain of my childhood. 

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

What are the exact charges that the prosecution is going for against the officer that killed George Floyd? Out of curiosity what would be the legal ramifications of going for a 1st degree murder charge vs a defense arguing that the cop was grossly negligent in his use of handbook allowed neck holds or whatever?

[Benton]

(09-03-2020, 12:16 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not legal, although it should certainly be that as well, but within policy. 



That would be the City Council for a city police department.  Unless things are done differently in MN.



Err, yes and no.  Higher ups can't be responsible for the every day actions of the rank and file.  What I mean by this is if, using me as an example, say I approve the time card of an officer who falsifies his information.  Unless I was in a position that I should have known the time card contained fraudulent information it is not a fault on my part when I approve it.  As to the previous complaints, that's another matter.  LEO's can accrue false complaints, especially when a certain group (i.e. gangs etc.) decides they're causing them too much trouble and organize mass complaints, so you do have to adequately investigate them before making any determination.  But then you run into the issue of how effective such investigations are.


This reminds me, I really have to watch that show.  Seeing William Zabka as a good guy for once (as opposed to Karate Kid, Just One of the Guys (a classic!), and Back to School) will be very interesting.  He was the villain of my childhood. 

I thought it was great (cobra kai, not improper police behavior). The wife and I binged the first two seasons and it's nice to have a show where there's no real good guy. It's all gray. But everyone stays true to character.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-03-2020, 02:10 AM)Benton Wrote: I thought it was great (cobra kai, not improper police behavior). The wife and I binged the first two seasons and it's nice to have a show where there's no real good guy. It's all gray. But everyone stays true to character.

Loved it. Seeing Ralph Macchio look both old and young at the exact same time is just weird. Also, I can't count the number of times I wanted to slap Daniel up the back of his head. Seeing the relationship between Johnny and Miguel, whoo, almost makes me cry. And the way they ended the 2nd season? I was about to crane kick my wall. :angry:

[fredtoast]

(09-02-2020, 10:10 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Uh, I don't recall it ever being stated that what that officer did to George Floyd was within policy.  Source?

Lots of people are supporting Chauvin's legal defense based on this.

• In a memo in support of the motion to dismiss, Chauvin's attorney explained that he acted "according to MPD policy, his training, and within his duties as a licensed peace officer of the State of Minnesota. "
  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-03-2020, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lots of people are supporting Chauvin's legal defense based on this.

• In a memo in support of the motion to dismiss, Chauvin's attorney explained that he acted "according to MPD policy, his training, and within his duties as a licensed peace officer of the State of Minnesota. "
  

I further clarified did any official claim it was within policy?  Of course the officer is going to claim it was, that's just good defense lawyering, eh Fred?