Biden vs. Trump debate

[HarleyDog]

(07-01-2024, 07:40 AM)hollodero Wrote: Well ok, I wouldn't know when the US' policy was anything but America first. 

Many would argue this. We have too many homeless people, but we're giving aid to other countries. That rubs a lot of people wrong.

[hollodero]

(07-01-2024, 10:01 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Many would argue this. We have too many homeless people, but we're giving aid to other countries. That rubs a lot of people wrong.

OK, I get the perspective. What I would say is that solving the homeless problem has probably nothing to do with foreign aid, and I find it questionable to pin those two issues against each other. I have no reason to believe that if the US ceded all foreign aids, any of this money would go to help the homeless. Also, you could still afford to help the homeless even with foreign aid happening. That this does not happen, imho, has different reasons.

Also, and that is just my take, it is somewhat of the human, and also Christian, thing to do to share some of your own fortune to help those in dire need. As far as I know most wealthy countries do some form of humanitarian aid, even while still putting their interests in front of others. And it might not even be about that, giving financial help also might prevent violence and wars. And last not least might give the USA some beneficial influence, eg to counterweigh the incrasing Chinese influence in Africa. So I don't think america first and giving aid to other countries are that mutually exclusive.

[JustWinBaby]

(07-01-2024, 07:40 AM)hollodero Wrote: I indeed don't know about that. Not to accuse you of whataboutism directly, I don't take it as a defense of Trump, but this is just this kind of "Dem do it too" argument that doesn't really make things any better. My viewpoints are not at all fueled by wanting to stand up for democrats in the first place, it's just troubling that's all and they sure contributed plenty to get there.

The Dems have been playing this game for years, but seems like you only started paying attention to American politics within the last 10 years if you didn't know about the "granny over the cliff" campaign.  Calling Trump Hitler and fearmongering about concentration camps is pretty beyond the pale, too.  Deplorable smears isn't something unique, much less novel, with Trump.

The point is you can't only be outraged when one side does it and then lament why things never change.  Let's stop calling it "whataboutism" and maybe acknowledge it's calling out hypocrisy, because 90% of this board's "outrage" is highly selective and partisan.

[hollodero]

(07-01-2024, 10:22 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: The Dems have been playing this game for years, but seems like you only started paying attention to American politics within the last 10 years if you didn't know about the "granny over the cliff" campaign.

Yeah that's pretty much the case. It's about 10 years since I followed the country's politics more closely. Most things I know before that stem from anecdotes I heard.
And btw. I do in no way attempt to whitewash Democrats. They sure have their own set of sins.

(07-01-2024, 10:22 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Calling Trump Hitler and fearmongering about concentration camps is pretty beyond the pale, too.  Deplorable smears isn't something unique, much less novel, with Trump.

The point is you can't only be outraged when one side does it and then lament why things never change.  Let's stop calling it "whataboutism" and maybe acknowledge it's calling out hypocrisy, because 90% of this board's "outrage" is highly selective and partisan.

Sure. It's just, none of the deplorable things that democrats said and did over the years diminish anything Trump says and does. These matters are not intrinsically connected, except when you try to prove that my outrage is selective. An assessment I do not find entirely fair (certainly a little fair, I am not unbiased) when it comes to my person. In general, sure, but again that's imho a weak argument for not being bothered by Trump's conduct.
The other issue is that many of the things you listed do not stem from an actual candidate for president. That's just of a different importance.

[Dill]

(06-30-2024, 02:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Deflection.  How Trump may respond to something has no bearing on how Biden would.  Especially as Biden is clearly senile.  I understand why you want to dodge that, but it's not going to be allowed.

"Allowed"???  The debate was staged so we could judge both candidates. How Trump responds to something should have some bearing on how his performance is judged, and his possible performance as president.

(06-30-2024, 02:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is a very poor take.  None of our adversaries tried to pull much of anything when Trump was POTUS.  Iran got their top general smoked and responded with one attack.  This is especially noteworthy when one considers that Putin annexed Crimea while Obama was POTUS (aren't you usually concerned about land grabs?) and then invaded the main body of Ukraine while Biden is POTUS.  This directly flies in the face of your conclusion that Trump is "good" for our adversaries and bad for our allies.

This has been the MAGA take for some time now, rather different from that of the foreign policy establishment of the US and our NATO allies.  Putin is responding to a specific balances of forces and opportunities in his region, not to whom is US president--the one MAGA variable. 

This doesn't "fly in the face" of my conclusion that Trump divides the country, introduces chaos into government--especially our intel services--and generates concern among our allies that we are not a reliable partner. I'm just considering more variables than you. 

(06-30-2024, 02:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Ahahaha, Trump's debate performance raised your concerns?  You really live in an alternate reality, don't you?  
I think anyone advocating for an outright senile POTUS is far less concerned with democracy or the nation's future then they are with partisanship.  You're doing an excellent job of making that point for me here, so my thanks.

Right now, I am defining "alternative reality" as the one where Biden stole the election and now has weaponized the DOJ to against Trump, who has given up his private life to fight for the average American.

So I live in the "reality" which rejects that conspiracy and recognizes it is used to manipulate tens of millions into supporting an autocrat, to the delight of adversaries like Putin.  You had tremendous difficulty recognizing the Trump threat in 2020. No different this time around.

[HarleyDog]

(07-01-2024, 11:02 AM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah that's pretty much the case. It's about 10 years since I followed the country's politics more closely. Most things I know before that stem from anecdotes I heard.
And btw. I do in no way attempt to whitewash Democrats. They sure have their own set of sins.



Sure. It's just, none of the deplorable things that democrats said and did over the years diminish anything Trump says and does. These matters are not intrinsically connected, except when you try to prove that my outrage is selective. An assessment I do not find entirely fair (certainly a little fair, I am not unbiased) when it comes to my person. In general, sure, but again that's imho a weak argument for not being bothered by Trump's conduct.
The other issue is that many of the things you listed do not stem from an actual candidate for president. That's just of a different importance.

The media targets Trump. Many things they say about him are made up and many things taken out of context. I watched a video over the weekend of an interview with Dr. Phil and DJT. It also had some crowd reaction at the end. People felt lied to by the media and how they portrayed him. Many Americans are learning this now. Here's the interview in case you wish to give it a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkBkgqt_mT0

Don't get me wrong, I still think DJT is kind of a douche and egomaniac. But that doesn't disregard the fact that he has been treated unfairly. When he cries witch hunt, is he lying? I don't think so. They have been obsessed over him.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-01-2024, 11:25 AM)Dill Wrote: "Allowed"???  The debate was staged so we could judge both candidates. How Trump responds to something should have some bearing on how his performance is judged, and his possible performance as president.

Indeed so.  So when are you going to start judging Biden?  It's been a few days, but we'll wait.

Quote:This has been the MAGA take for some time now, rather different from that of the foreign policy establishment of the US and our NATO allies.  Putin is responding to a specific balances of forces and opportunities in his region, not to whom is US president--the one MAGA variable. 

It's been the take of anyone with a pulse and a functioning brain.  The fact that "MAGA" has the same take has zero relevance as to its authenticity.

Quote:This doesn't "fly in the face" of my conclusion that Trump divides the country, introduces chaos into government--especially our intel services--and generates concern among our allies that we are not a reliable partner. I'm just considering more variables than you. 

No, you're just considering the variables that benefit your position and ignoring the rather more marked ones that do not.  Tangible reality rather trumps Dill's perception.

Quote:Right now, I am defining "alternative reality" as the one where Biden stole the election and now has weaponized the DOJ to against Trump, who has given up his private life to fight for the average American.

Fascinating.  Also not what we're discussing.  We're discussing the debate, not the events of four years ago.  I absolutely understand why you want to discuss pretty much anything else, but it's rather boring.  There are plenty of threads to engage on this topic.

Quote:So I live in the "reality" which rejects that conspiracy and recognizes it is used to manipulate tens of millions into supporting an autocrat, to the delight of adversaries like Putin.  You had tremendous difficulty recognizing the Trump threat in 2020. No different this time around.

Trump is an autocrat now?  I guess anything to distract you from Biden's bedshitting performance last week. 

So, cards on the table.  After that debate performance are you comfortable with Biden as POTUS?   

[Dill]

(07-01-2024, 10:22 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: The Dems have been playing this game for years, but seems like you only started paying attention to American politics within the last 10 years if you didn't know about the "granny over the cliff" campaign.  Calling Trump Hitler and fearmongering about concentration camps is pretty beyond the pale, too.  Deplorable smears isn't something unique, much less novel, with Trump.

The point is you can't only be outraged when one side does it and then lament why things never change.  Let's stop calling it "whataboutism" and maybe acknowledge it's calling out hypocrisy, because 90% of this board's "outrage" is highly selective and partisan.

A guy who used the DOJ to punish enemies and protect himself and his friends, and then sought directly to overturn a valid election, in part by convincing tens of millions it was stolen, and the DOJ is weaponized against HIM, is more than "beyond the pale."  It is the worst campaign fraud, and internal assault on democracy, in the history of the US. And it is not over. Trump has quite possibly leveraged that Big Lie into another term in office.

So there is definitely something here unique, novel, and dangerous. 

And here you are again speaking of outrage when only when the other side does it, like it's somehow "selective and partisan" to recognize the unique threat that Trump poses to US democracy.  Your great insight this unprecedented historical moment appears to be that "both sides" use Hitler memes and it's "hypocrisy" not to acknowledge that. Carry on, MAGA. 

I'd like to get you on record: Did Biden steal the 2020 election, as Trump says, and has he "weaponized" the DOJ against Trump?  You bought the Trump/MAGA claim the Russia investigation was a hoax. Where do you stand on the Big Lie? 

[HarleyDog]

(07-01-2024, 11:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: So, cards on the table.  After that debate performance are you comfortable with Biden as POTUS?   

Oh how reckless this would be if people voted for him. Personal hatred for a candidate overshadowing what's the best interest of the country. 

[Dill]

(07-01-2024, 11:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This has been the MAGA take for some time now, rather different from that of the foreign policy establishment of the US and our NATO allies.  Putin is responding to a specific balances of forces and opportunities in his region, not to whom is US president--the one MAGA variable. 

It's been the take of anyone with a pulse and a functioning brain.  The fact that "MAGA" has the same take has zero relevance as to its authenticity.

This doesn't "fly in the face" of my conclusion that Trump divides the country, introduces chaos into government--especially our intel services--and generates concern among our allies that we are not a reliable partner. I'm just considering more variables than you. 

No, you're just considering the variables that benefit your position and ignoring the rather more marked ones that do not.  Tangible reality rather trumps Dill's perception.

Doesn't look like you know what variables there are. let alone how to weight them. 
Here is what I'm "considering." 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nato-allies-brace-possible-trump-president/
https://www.dw.com/en/experts-fear-trumps-nato-comments-made-europe-less-secure/a-68238790
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/09/us/politics/trump-2025-nato.html
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4459201-nato-allies-fear-repercussions-trump-reelection/
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/18/opinions/trump-second-term-us-allies-foreign-policy-ghitis/index.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/02/19/trump-nato-russia-republicans-europe/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/18/munich-security-conference-trump-nato-europe/  
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/biden-debate-performance-alarms-us-allies-worried-trump-win-rcna159387 etc etc etc 

So Dill's "perception" appears to be shared by our allies' foreign policy experts, not to mention their governments,
all of which you, apparently, were unaware. It's only in MAGA world that people believe 'the world respected us" when Trump was in office.
(That's what Trump told them to believe.) Now the specter of an unstable and unreliable ally disconcerts our allies to the cheers 
of adversaries of democracy the world over.

[hollodero]

(07-01-2024, 11:39 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: The media targets Trump. Many things they say about him are made up and many things taken out of context. I watched a video over the weekend of an interview with Dr. Phil and DJT. It also had some crowd reaction at the end. People felt lied to by the media and how they portrayed him. Many Americans are learning this now. Here's the interview in case you wish to give it a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkBkgqt_mT0

Don't get me wrong, I still think DJT is kind of a douche and egomaniac. But that doesn't disregard the fact that he has been treated unfairly. When he cries witch hunt, is he lying? I don't think so. They have been obsessed over him.

Yeah, he was treated unfairly at times. But for one, everyone who is president was treated unfairly at times. But mostly, I have a hard time accepting the argument "look at what democrats did" or "look how the media reported inaccurately about him". They all did. But there's just a reality beyond the narratives. Like Trump having a loose morale, eg. he ran a scam university, misappropriated charity money to buy paintings of himself, all these things are true and of course only the top molecules of the iceberg.
You say "witch hunt", something Trump used regarding the Russia investigation, and yeah there's the clash of narratives. Completely vindicated vs. definitely guilty. The reality is that his campaign manager and a close advisor of his were convicted over blatant Russia connections, there was a Russian campaign with organized hacks and social media campaigns reaching way over 100 million users on facebook alone, trump's son only got off because he was deemed too ignorant to know the law, Trump himself did plenty of dubious things, the Mueller report is full of it, and he was explicitely not vindicated. And Trump knew about russia's influence and still publicly said 'might be China, might be a fat guy', he pretended to believe Putin over his own intelligence people in such a matter of national security, that is not a narrative and imho you can not claim witch hunt when all of this took place.

But again, that is all not to say that the media and democrats dd not often overplay their hand and brought nonsense stories, or even bowing to folks like Avenatti, Cohen or his disgruntled niece etc, all real embarrassing stuff that would fill pages to list. I just caution from concluding that Trump is merely a victim whose issues actually are just miniscule. You say he's a douche and an egomaniac, it's appreciated you see the perspective, but I'd argue he's plenty more, like for example clue- and reckless and an authoritarian at heart, and I say things like that because Trump claims to "have fallen in love with Kim", tries his best to overthrow election results and things like that that also would fill pages. The media narrative does not factor into it much when I say this guy is not suited to be president, who imho should meet the minimal requirement of accepting the peaceful transfer of power or not admiring brutal dictators and then some.

PS that is not to say I feel comfortable with Biden as president for four more years. Somehow the self-proclaimed (and arguably actually) greatest country on earth produces the most ill suited candidates for the highest office probably ever wittnessed in any western country. It's time to inform Houston.

[Dill]

(07-01-2024, 11:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Right now, I am defining "alternative reality" as the one where Biden stole the election and now has weaponized the DOJ to against Trump, who has given up his private life to fight for the average American.

Fascinating.  Also not what we're discussing.  We're discussing the debate, not the events of four years ago.  I absolutely understand why you want to discuss pretty much anything else, but it's rather boring.  There are plenty of threads to engage on this topic.

You are putting on a clinic in compartmentalization.

Sorry, but Trump is in the debate as GOP candidate because tens of millions either believe his lie about a stolen election, or don't rank threats to democracy very highly, or both. That lie, in turn, validates his legitimacy as a candidate to those tens of millions, and establishes the platform from which he will decide policy--especially regarding law enforcement.  He was asked DURING THE DEBATE WE ARE DISCUSSING, to confirm or deny that those hundreds convicted of trashing the Capitol and assaulting police officers were "HEROES." Did you catch his answer?  

But you don't want to discuss the fact that Trump power rests on a lie embraced by millions, and how he might use that power to delude and manipulate. 
That's "boring." There are other threads. 

(07-01-2024, 11:40 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Trump is an autocrat now?  I guess anything to distract you from Biden's bedshitting performance last week. 
So, cards on the table.  After that debate performance are you comfortable with Biden as POTUS?   

You aren't sure, or doubt, that Trump is an autocrat? And you've been strongly opposed to any discussion of historical or social-science scholarship on authoritarian government and backsliding democracies, like it's all just partisan name-calling.  

And no, I'm not "comfortable" with Biden as president. But I'm much less comfortable with an autocrat who tried to seize power illegally after four years of chaotic administration, and now, propelled back into power by a mass of true believers, promises retribution if he gets into office.  This looks like incredible partisanship to you because now, as back in 2020, you don't see any special threat in Trump; complaints about his criminality, disregard for democracy, and power over the "perceptions" of millions, are so "four years ago."  

[Luvnit2]

(07-01-2024, 12:48 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, he was treated unfairly at times. But for one, everyone who is president was treated unfairly at times. But mostly, I have a hard time accepting the argument "look at what democrats did" or "look how the media reported inaccurately about him". They all did. But there's just a reality beyond the narratives. Like Trump having a loose morale, eg. he ran a scam university, misappropriated charity money to buy paintings of himself, all these things are true and of course only the top molecules of the iceberg.
You say "witch hunt", something Trump used regarding the Russia investigation, and yeah there's the clash of narratives. Completely vindicated vs. definitely guilty. The reality is that his campaign manager and a close advisor of his were convicted over blatant Russia connections, there was a Russian campaign with organized hacks and social media campaigns reaching way over 100 million users on facebook alone, trump's son only got off because he was deemed too ignorant to know the law, Trump himself did plenty of dubious things, the Mueller report is full of it, and he was explicitely not vindicated. And Trump knew about russia's influence and still publicly said 'might be China, might be a fat guy', he pretended to believe Putin over his own intelligence people in such a matter of national security, that is not a narrative and imho you can not claim witch hunt when all of this took place.

But again, that is all not to say that the media and democrats dd not often overplay their hand and brought nonsense stories, or even bowing to folks like Avenatti, Cohen or his disgruntled niece etc, all real embarrassing stuff that would fill pages to list. I just caution from concluding that Trump is merely a victim whose issues actually are just miniscule. You say he's a douche and an egomaniac, it's appreciated you see the perspective, but I'd argue he's plenty more, like for example clue- and reckless and an authoritarian at heart, and I say things like that because Trump claims to "have fallen in love with Kim", tries his best to overthrow election results and things like that that also would fill pages. The media narrative does not factor into it much when I say this guy is not suited to be president, who imho should meet the minimal requirement of accepting the peaceful transfer of power or not admiring brutal dictators and then some.

PS that is not to say I feel comfortable with Biden as president for four more years. Somehow the self-proclaimed (and arguably actually) greatest country on earth produces the most ill suited candidates for the highest office probably ever wittnessed in any western country. It's time to inform Houston.

Sorry, this makes no sense. Trump has been attacked by Democrats and the left media since 2016. You definitely don't get it if you think Trump colluded with Russia. You mentioned in an earlier thread about Manafort being indicted as a result of the Russian Hoax. You failed to mention Manafort was convicted of not registering as a foreign agent, not Russian collusion. Hunter and Jim Biden never registered as a foreign agent, yet they have never been charged. Why? We know they got millions from foreign countries.

The liberal media brain washed you and others Trump is the devil. Trump exposed them and continues to expose the liberal media as fake news. Yes, they hate him. But the reality is Trump was the POTUS for 4 years. He stopped ISIS quickly as he said he would. He did not get us in another war, only President to accomplish this in decades.
He delivered a huge tax cut to the middle class. He had the economy rolling until Covid hit, then he had to spend trillions to stop the US from going into a depression.

He had year over year inflation of a little of 5%, in contrast Biden is at close to 20% inflation. He kept interest rates in check for mortgages, credit cards and autos. Biden' poor inflation was self-inflicted by reversing Trump immigration and fossil fuel policies.

Biden had the border under control, Biden's border is pure chaos.

Trump would not be my best friend. But remove all the personal BS attacks as not all are real, Trump was a much better POTUS than Biden. I respect Trump's policies.

Do you respect Biden's policies and the results obtained the pass 3+ years?

I can't think of one Biden policy that made the lower and middle class more financially secure. Can you?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-01-2024, 12:47 PM)Dill Wrote: Doesn't look like you know what variables there are. let alone how to weight them. 
Here is what I'm "considering." 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nato-allies-brace-possible-trump-president/
https://www.dw.com/en/experts-fear-trumps-nato-comments-made-europe-less-secure/a-68238790
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/09/us/politics/trump-2025-nato.html
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4459201-nato-allies-fear-repercussions-trump-reelection/
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/18/opinions/trump-second-term-us-allies-foreign-policy-ghitis/index.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/02/19/trump-nato-russia-republicans-europe/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/18/munich-security-conference-trump-nato-europe/  
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/biden-debate-performance-alarms-us-allies-worried-trump-win-rcna159387 etc etc etc 

So Dill's "perception" appears to be shared by our allies' foreign policy experts, not to mention their governments,
all of which you, apparently, were unaware. It's only in MAGA world that people believe 'the world respected us" when Trump was in office.
(That's what Trump told them to believe.) Now the specter of an unstable and unreliable ally disconcerts our allies to the cheers 
of adversaries of democracy the world over.

I honestly don't care at all about any of that.  Trump has been decidedly anti-Russia, going so far as to exhort Europe to prepare to defend against Putin and his use of energy as a weapon/blunt tool for coercion.  Given the choice between a POTUS that our allies are "comfortable with and our enemies walk all over versus a POTUS that makes our allies uncomfortable and our enemies fear I'm taking the later every day and twice on Sunday.

Maybe you should be more concerned about what's in the interest of the US and less concerned about the feelings of our allies?

Lastly, my entire point on this subject was refuting your inane claim that Trump emboldens our enemies when he clearly achieves the exact opposite result.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-01-2024, 01:04 PM)Dill Wrote: You are putting on a clinic in compartmentalization.

That's an interesting way to say I'm staying on topic.

Quote:Sorry, but Trump is in the debate as GOP candidate because tens of millions either believe his lie about a stolen election, or don't rank threats to democracy very highly, or both. That lie, in turn, validates his legitimacy as a candidate to those tens of millions, and establishes the platform from which he will decide policy--especially regarding law enforcement.  He was asked DURING THE DEBATE WE ARE DISCUSSING, to confirm or deny that those hundreds convicted of trashing the Capitol and assaulting police officers were "HEROES." Did you catch his answer?  

But you don't want to discuss the fact that Trump power rests on a lie embraced by millions, and how he might use that power to delude and manipulate. 
That's "boring." There are other threads. 

Sure you can discuss it.  I'm just wondering when you're going to get to the other party in the debate, Biden.  You don't seem to have much to say about him and I find that odd.

Quote:You aren't sure, or doubt, that Trump is an autocrat? And you've been strongly opposed to any discussion of historical or social-science scholarship on authoritarian government and backsliding democracies, like it's all just partisan name-calling.  

I'm strongly opposed to your bedwetting analysis being purported as fact, that is true.

Quote:And no, I'm not "comfortable" with Biden as president. But I'm much less comfortable with an autocrat who tried to seize power illegally after four years of chaotic administration, and now, propelled back into power by a mass of true believers, promises retribution if he gets into office.  This looks like incredible partisanship to you because now, as back in 2020, you don't see any special threat in Trump; complaints about his criminality, disregard for democracy, and power over the "perceptions" of millions, are so "four years ago."  

I still don't see much of a threat in Trump in that regard.  I think he'll serve four more years, incorrectly claim to be the only POTUS to be reelected after losing the office and we'll get pretty much the same four years we got last time.  I also think we'll get a end to the war in Ukraine and Gaza, one of which certainly won't occur under Biden.

What I find suspiciously absent from your arguments is the fact that a senile man is currently our President and that his handlers, and the media, have been lying to us about his condition for years.  I know that's why you're laser focused on Trump, because to discuss Biden even a little is pulling the covers back on a massive deception, an usurpation of power by unknown parties and a complete lack of interest from the fourth estate in investigating either of those things.  But keep shouting Trump and try and distract everyone from what's actually happening, what what you fear might happen.

[HarleyDog]

(07-01-2024, 01:04 PM)Dill Wrote:  But I'm much less comfortable with an autocrat who tried to seize power illegally after four years of chaotic administration, and now, propelled back into power by a mass of true believers, promises retribution if he gets into office.  

If Trump is re-elected, it won't be because people believe his lies, or that all accusations made against him are untrue. It will only be because the country can't afford another 4yrs of the Biden administration. Some of you are convinced anyone who supports Trump is a brainwashed zombie which is furthest from the truth. They are not running to Trump as much as they are fleeing from Biden. 

[HarleyDog]

(07-01-2024, 01:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I still don't see much of a threat in Trump in that regard.  I think he'll serve four more years, incorrectly claim to be the only POTUS to be reelected after losing the office and we'll get pretty much the same four years we got last time.  I also think we'll get a end to the war in Ukraine and Gaza, one of which certainly won't occur under Biden.

Absolutely. He pledged to do that in before getting into office if elected (however, he was reaching on that and doubt he's going to be able to pull it off until sworn in). 

Quote:What I find suspiciously absent from your arguments is the fact that a senile man is currently our President and that his handlers, and the media, have been lying to us about his condition for years.  I know that's why you're laser focused on Trump, because to discuss Biden even a little is pulling the covers back on a massive deception, an usurpation of power by unknown parties and a complete lack of interest from the fourth estate in investigating either of those things.  But keep shouting Trump and try and distract everyone from what's actually happening, what what you fear might happen.

Refusing to acknowledge dirt in your own house, while criticizing another,  is a common trend with the left. The gaslighting is over the top. And every time the news refuses to report anything bad against the left and only focuses on the GOP, it fuels anger from misinformation to the voters. If the Dems lose this election like I think they will, it will be because of their own doing and the media downplaying their sins.

[Dill]

(07-01-2024, 12:48 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, he was treated unfairly at times. But for one, everyone who is president was treated unfairly at times. But mostly, I have a hard time accepting the argument "look at what democrats did" or "look how the media reported inaccurately about him". They all did. But there's just a reality beyond the narratives. Like Trump having a loose morale, eg. he ran a scam university, misappropriated charity money to buy paintings of himself, all these things are true and of course only the top molecules of the iceberg.

That was a pretty sensible post, overall, and the bolded seems a good balancing point.

It raises the question of what is different about Trump's situation. It can't be just that news media sometimes exaggerated or got him wrong.

So I want to add one thing about the argument that Trump was somehow "mistreated" by media he used pretty well to spread some very dangerous lies.

I'm astonished at how the "media persecution" argument, along with "they just hate Trump," has been so successful at separating cause from effect. Like actual Trump criminality is not really what motivates Trump reporting in the MSM. When stories appear about his obstruction of justice or use of his office to attack election opponents or over throw the government. Rather, people are just out to get Trump because he's orange and has mean tweets. 

Like actual criminality should not figure in assessing a candidates fitness for the highest office in the land and cannot REALLY be the source of negative media.

I thought Obama was treated unfairly rather a lot--daily by the RWM, which by 2008 had coalesced into a systematic attack on his presidency working with the GOP. But time and again accusations began without proof, and evaporated for lack of it (e.g.,Fast and Furious, IRS, SEVEN Benghazi investigations). Much like the recent attempt to impeach Biden.

So many Trump investigations, on the other hand, began with proof and then evaporated or stalled, owing to the difficulty of prosecuting a leader in office with his party behind him. 

[hollodero]

(07-01-2024, 01:14 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Sorry, this makes no sense. Trump has been attacked by Democrats and the left media since 2016. You definitely don't get it if you think Trump colluded with Russia. You mentioned in an earlier thread about Manafort being indicted as a result of the Russian Hoax. You failed to mention Manafort was convicted of not registering as a foreign agent, not Russian collusion. Hunter and Jim Biden never registered as a foreign agent, yet they have never been charged. Why? We know they got millions from foreign countries.

Well, I don't expect you to read everything I write thoroughly. But I would expect you to at least grasp the jist of it before responding. Nowhere did I write "Trump colluded with Russia and that's a fact". I talked about a campaign manager who was deeply in debt with a Russia-linked oligarch and gave him private briefings, about a close advisor coordinating an email dump with the responsible hacker and wikileaks, about Trump denying all interference even when he knew better. And these are all things you would be furious, furious about if these exact same things ever came out about Biden or Hillary.

I will not respond to the rest since this is just Trump campaign speech that has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

[Dill]

(07-01-2024, 01:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I honestly don't care at all about any of that.  Trump has been decidedly anti-Russia, going so far as to exhort Europe to prepare to defend against Putin and his use of energy as a weapon/blunt tool for coercion.  Given the choice between a POTUS that our allies are "comfortable with and our enemies walk all over versus a POTUS that makes our allies uncomfortable and our enemies fear I'm taking the later every day and twice on Sunday.

Maybe you should be more concerned about what's in the interest of the US and less concerned about the feelings of our allies?

Lastly, my entire point on this subject was refuting your inane claim that Trump emboldens our enemies when he clearly achieves the exact opposite result.

Seems you are granting my argument that our allies are "more comfortable" with Biden; their "take" diverges sharply from the MAGA take, which
you falsely attributed to "anyone with a pulse and a functioning brain,"

though you don't seem to be clear about WHY our allies are "uncomfortable" with Trump. 

And you've not really established that our "enemies walk all over us" under Biden. Rght now he's the main reason Putin has not taken Ukraine.
Putin's best hope is that Trump wins and "ends the war in one day." 

Being the leading NATO partner is in the interest of the US. To keep that alliance viable, other members must be able to count on US leadership. 
Ending the war in one day by giving Ukraine to Russia is not a good result. What a mess that would render our NATO alliance.  That's all bad unless, 
of course, one favors the anti-Globalist movement which Putin has been exploiting in Europe as well as the US. 

Outside MAGA world, foreign policy experts assess a range of forces and motivations to explain all of Putin's foreign invasions. None of them
thinks Putin was suddenly emboldened by some Biden "weakness" or --ridiculously--by some Trump "strength." 
That sort of explanation only appeals to people who don't follow foreign policy.  https://www.nytimes.com/article/ukraine-russia-putin.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/melikkaylan/2022/04/04/why-putin-decided-to-invade-ukraine-and-why-it-led-to-war-crimes/
https://www.vox.com/2022/2/23/22948534/russia-ukraine-war-putin-explosions-invasion-explained

Trump's own National Security Advisor thinks that Putin did not invade Ukraine during the Trump presidency because Trump's goals and behavior
aligned so closely with Moscow's wishes.https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/bolton-sheds-light-putin-didnt-invade-ukraine-trump-rcna19045

Outside of you and Trump just saying so, what is the evidence that a Trump presidency doesn't embolden our enemies? 
He's clearly disrupted our intel services. And very publicly praised dictators like Orban and Kim (with whom he exchanges love letters). 
Trump actually held up aid to Ukraine in hopes of damaging Biden's presidential campaign, which led to more political disruption in the form of
impeachment.  Why would you NOT want that guy back if you are an adversary.