Biden vs. Trump debate

[JustWinBaby]

(07-01-2024, 11:02 AM)hollodero Wrote: Sure. It's just, none of the deplorable things that democrats said and did over the years diminish anything Trump says and does. These matters are not intrinsically connected, except when you try to prove that my outrage is selective. An assessment I do not find entirely fair (certainly a little fair, I am not unbiased) when it comes to my person. In general, sure, but again that's imho a weak argument for not being bothered by Trump's conduct.
The other issue is that many of the things you listed do not stem from an actual candidate for president. That's just of a different importance.

I have never said I'm not bothered by Trump's conduct.  I am very concerned with much of it.  I have never, and will never, vote for him.  But, as a Libertarian, I am equally alarmed, maybe more so in some cases, by the very anti-democratic behavior from the party that claims to defend it, and justifies abusing the law to "protect democracy".  You're "alarmed" by Trump's behavior, but have shown and admitted that you're oblivious to what the Dems have been slinging for 20+ years.  Failing to explode irrationally over every rumor and transgression from Trump doesn't make me an apologist or defender.  You're outraged over Jan 6.  Fair enough.  What was Russia Collusion?  That was, at the end of the day, pretty much the same damn thing.  You can split hairs that what Trump did was illegal and what the Dems did wasn't, but that's not really a compelling argument.

But my response was to "why do people keep supporting him"?  Clean up your own house first.  Many people, maybe not you specifically look the other way when it's their party doing it.  And it's entirely fair - I don't see you calling out Dems for their abuses, their disdainful rhetoric.  If you do that, then I apologize.  Otherwise, you look like an outsider who's views on American politics begin and end with Trump.

And absolutely everything I said "stem" from an actual candidate for President.  Obama approved and ran the "granny over the cliff" ads.  What has really pissed off Dems about Trump from Day 1 is when they call you a racist, you're supposed to cower and defend yourself.  But Trump just throws it back at them.  That's why he's popular with his base.

[Dill]

(07-01-2024, 01:28 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: If Trump is re-elected, it won't be because people believe his lies, or that all accusations made against him are untrue. It will only be because the country can't afford another 4yrs of the Biden administration. Some of you are convinced anyone who supports Trump is a brainwashed zombie which is furthest from the truth. They are not running to Trump as much as they are fleeing from Biden. 

I'm hoping a guy who claims to dislike "gaslighting" on "the left" can answer a few direct questions.

1. Can you agree that Biden DID NOT steal the 2020 election, and that Trump DID try to steal it?  

2. What sort of damage has Biden done that exceeds Trump's two impeachments and coup attempt, plus the divisions
he's created in our intel services? 

[hollodero]

(07-01-2024, 02:34 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I have never said I'm not bothered by Trump's conduct.  I am very concerned with much of it.  I have never, and will never, vote for him.  But, as a Libertarian, I am equally alarmed, maybe more so in some cases, by the very anti-democratic behavior from the party that claims to defend it, and justifies abusing the law to "protect democracy".

Fair enough.

(07-01-2024, 02:34 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: You're "alarmed" by Trump's behavior, but have shown and admitted that you're oblivious to what the Dems have been slinging for 20+ years.  Failing to explode irrationally over every rumor and transgression from Trump doesn't make me an apologist or defender.  You're outraged over Jan 6.  Fair enough.  What was Russia Collusion?  That was, at the end of the day, pretty much the same damn thing.  You can split hairs that what Trump did was illegal and what the Dems did wasn't, but that's not really a compelling argument.

But my response was to "why do people keep supporting him"?  Clean up your own house first.  Many people, maybe not you specifically look the other way when it's their party doing it.  And it's entirely fair - I don't see you calling out Dems for their abuses, their disdainful rhetoric.  If you do that, then I apologize.  Otherwise, you look like an outsider who's views on American politics begin and end with Trump.

Well, it's difficult to self-evaluate. I think your critizism is somewhat half fair. I am sure not aware of many histiorical events, and I certainly can not claim to look at it from an unbiased perspective. I know well enough that this changes how one weighs certain issues against each other, even when not on purpose. So, yeah, I'm probably guilty of that somehow, it would be inappropriate to claim otherwise. But then again I believe I have posted plenty of harsh critizism towards democrats and liberals too to not deserve to be painted as completely one-sided.

(07-01-2024, 02:34 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: And absolutely everything I said "stem" from an actual candidate for President.  Obama approved and ran the "granny over the cliff" ads.  What has really pissed off Dems about Trump from Day 1 is when they call you a racist, you're supposed to cower and defend yourself.  But Trump just throws it back at them.  That's why he's popular with his base.

I think his brazen and vocal disdain for liberals is his most popular asset. Aside from that, I don't think the extreme refusal of Trump was all just about him defending himself against accusations of racism. It also was about him telling more lies than anyone, being vulgar, uneducated, ignorant, having awful policy solutions like a wall, ragetweeting in an embarrassing manner and so on and so forth. Imho you oversimplify it.

[Dill]

(06-30-2024, 04:04 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: probably about the same thing Biden was gonna do to fix everything and save democracy.
Spend most of the time fighting Congress, and get much of nothing done. 

The Dems will fight him every step of the way, just like if it was reversed. You aren't 18 and still believing in the system are you? You've seen this cycle played out over and over and over again, so I have no idea why you keep swallowing. 

As far as handling a crisis, What exactly did Biden do about Immigration? Nada. What did Trump do about COVID? something.
Score on crisis handling. Trump 1/2, Biden: To busy drooling in his food.

Really don't know what the bolded refers to.  I haven't seen an attempted coup play out "over and over again." 

Nor have I ever seen a US president attempt a coup and then convince millions that wasn't really what happened, or if it did
then it was a good thing and Capitol rioters are "heroes." 

Sorry but Biden has attempted to do something about immigration. Trump was able to block an immigration bill, though not 
elected to office, because followers loyal to him give him that power. 

Trump, when pushed, got vaccine production going, while denying that COVID was a big problem and refusing to wear a mask
--which inspired his followers to also refuse masks and also vaccines. 

I don't see a "senile" Biden disparaging medical experts or calling COVID the "China flu" (followed by a rise in assaults on Asian-americans),
or wasting precious months claiming it would just go away in the spring. Trump was like a deer in the headlights. Have you not 
heard the Woodward interviews?

[Dill]

(07-01-2024, 02:34 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: ...But, as a Libertarian, I am equally alarmed, maybe more so in some cases, by the very anti-democratic behavior from the party that claims to defend it, and justifies abusing the law to "protect democracy".  You're "alarmed" by Trump's behavior, but have shown and admitted that you're oblivious to what the Dems have been slinging for 20+ years.  Failing to explode irrationally over every rumor and transgression from Trump doesn't make me an apologist or defender.  You're outraged over Jan 6.  Fair enough.  What was Russia Collusion?  That was, at the end of the day, pretty much the same damn thing.  You can split hairs that what Trump did was illegal and what the Dems did wasn't, but that's not really a compelling argument.

Trump's campaign personnel sought and accepted numerous contacts with Russian operatives inside the US, enough to finally trigger an investigation, which lead to a number of convictions, jail sentences, and a finding of Trump "obstruction"--that's what RUSSIA COLLUSION was. Our intel services doing their job--though some of it later undone through Trump pardoning friends. (Pretty sure I've explained this to you before.)

That's pretty much NOT "the same thing" as a defeated president convincing tens of millions the election was stolen, then colluding with RNC in seven different states to create a lest of forge electors to present to the VP during certification, just as the mob said president called to Washington descended on the Capitol in hopes of throwing the election to the House. 

That you think the difference between legal action to protect the US and an illegal action to overthrow a valid election is no more than "splitting hairs" is symptom of why US politics have been in such crisis the last 8 years. So many are unable to recognize differences in scale and proportion, much less the legality or illegality of presidential or party actions. Suddenly "rational" is not being "alarmed" over every Trump obstruction, impeachment, coup attempt and return to power, and accepting Trump's version of the Russia investigation.  Balance, right? 

[HarleyDog]

(07-01-2024, 02:59 PM)Dill Wrote: I'm hoping a guy who claims to dislike "gaslighting" on "the left" can answer a few direct questions.

1. Can you agree that Biden DID NOT steal the 2020 election, and that Trump DID try to steal it?  

Sure - I'll take a shot at it. Myself, I don't think the election was stolen. BUT, election day was pretty suspect the way it was handled due to Covid. That's what there are people who are suspicious.

Quote:2. What sort of damage has Biden done that exceeds Trump's two impeachments and coup attempt, plus the divisions

he's created in our intel services? 

The border is a fiasco. He created it through executive orders to overide Trumps policies. He also stopped building the way. His withdrawal from Afghanistan was the worst, including the 13 service members killed. And also the way we failed to protect the citizens who put their lives in danger to help the troops over there. Also, we owe a huge apology to the women in Afghanistan. Who the hell trusts the Taliban and takes their word for anything? These women went from having rights and the ability to get an education, to being prisoners in their own country. These are just a few of his FUBARS. 

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(07-01-2024, 04:42 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Sure - I'll take a shot at it. Myself, I don't think the election was stolen. BUT, election day was pretty suspect the way it was handled due to Covid. That's what there are people who are suspicious.


The border is a fiasco. He created it through executive orders to overide Trumps policies. He also stopped building the way. His withdrawal from Afghanistan was the worst, including the 13 service members killed. And also the way we failed to protect the citizens who put their lives in danger to help the troops over there. Also, we owe a huge apology to the women in Afghanistan. Who the hell trusts the Taliban and takes their word for anything? These women went from having rights and the ability to get an education, to being prisoners in their own country. These are just a few of his FUBARS. 

Not to mention the damage done to the children due to the poor handling of covid, erasing years of educational growth. Erosion of the public trust due to mishandling covid and strong arming social media to push their narrative and influencing the election in Joe Biden's favor. 

[HarleyDog]

(07-01-2024, 04:52 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Not to mention the damage done to the children due to the poor handling of covid, erasing years of educational growth. Erosion of the public trust due to mishandling covid and strong arming social media to push their narrative and influencing the election in Joe Biden's favor. 

Thanks for adding and I encourage others to do so as well.

[BigPapaKain]

Imagine blaming the mishandling of Covid on Biden. Then again, these are the same voters who blamed Hurricane Katrina on Obama.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-01-2024, 02:05 PM)Dill Wrote: Outside of you and Trump just saying so, what is the evidence that a Trump presidency doesn't embolden our enemies? 

Where's the evidence that it does?  You're the one making a claim here.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(07-01-2024, 03:15 PM)Dill Wrote: Really don't know what the bolded refers to.  I haven't seen an attempted coup play out "over and over again." 

Nor have I ever seen a US president attempt a coup and then convince millions that wasn't really what happened, or if it did
then it was a good thing and Capitol rioters are "heroes." 

Sorry but Biden has attempted to do something about immigration. Trump was able to block an immigration bill, though not 
elected to office, because followers loyal to him give him that power. 

Trump, when pushed, got vaccine production going, while denying that COVID was a big problem and refusing to wear a mask
--which inspired his followers to also refuse masks and also vaccines. 

I don't see a "senile" Biden disparaging medical experts or calling COVID the "China flu" (followed by a rise in assaults on Asian-americans),
or wasting precious months claiming it would just go away in the spring. Trump was like a deer in the headlights. Have you not 
heard the Woodward interviews?

The coup, coup, you like a broken record with that shit.

Biden was having record numbers coming thru and didn't do anything til it was you know.. a political issue and he's in danger of not winning.

If if if if if, IDGAF what you THINK Biden would have done. But based on his handling of the Immigration crisis, I can also say IF he was in charge then he would have flubbed it up. 

What we can say based on each of their performaces, is that there wouldn't have been an immigration crisis if Trump had won.

[Dill]

(07-01-2024, 04:42 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: 1. Can you agree that Biden DID NOT steal the 2020 election, and that Trump DID try to steal it?  

Sure - I'll take a shot at it. Myself, I don't think the election was stolen. BUT, election day was pretty suspect the way it was handled due to Covid. That's what there are people who are suspicious.

You only answered half the question.

(07-01-2024, 04:42 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: .2. What sort of damage has Biden done that exceeds Trump's two impeachments and coup attempt, plus the divisions
he's created in our intel services?

The border is a fiasco. He created it through executive orders to overide Trumps policies. He also stopped building the way. His withdrawal from Afghanistan was the worst, including the 13 service members killed. And also the way we failed to protect the citizens who put their lives in danger to help the troops over there. Also, we owe a huge apology to the women in Afghanistan. Who the hell trusts the Taliban and takes their word for anything? These women went from having rights and the ability to get an education, to being prisoners in their own country. These are just a few of his FUBARS. 

Terms like "fiasco" are not very precise. I'm trying to review and compare Biden and Trump's border policies.
Seems the main difference is that Biden did things like stop stop separating parents from children and then send the parents
back home without them.  Trump invoked Title 42 to expel some 400,000 people. Biden kept it in force and expelled two million.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65574725?scrlybrkr=1ce9ec23

If the border is so bad, why would Trump and MAGA Republicans tank a bill addressing it? 

(07-01-2024, 04:42 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: His withdrawal from Afghanistan was the worst, including the 13 service members killed. And also the way we failed to protect the citizens who put their lives in danger to help the troops over there. Also, we owe a huge apology to the women in Afghanistan. Who the hell trusts the Taliban and takes their word for anything? These women went from having rights and the ability to get an education, to being prisoners in their own country. These are just a few of his FUBARS. 

I agree the withdrawal from Afghanistan was bad. But it hardly rates with past military fiascos like the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut or even the withdrawal from Vietnam.   

I was NOT for withdrawing from Afghanistan. Both Trump and Biden were. And in my view, the central problem of the withdrawal was that the government there collapsed before the US withdrawal was complete. I don't see why Trump doesn't share part of the blame for everything you mention here, since he negotiated the US pullout directly with the Taliban (Trump trusted them), cutting out the government. That undermining was the prime reason for its premature collapse. 

Nothing in Biden's border handling or withdrawal from A-stan appear illegal; the problems associated with them look like the problems which usually follow from intractable difficult situations. Attempting a coup is something else, and indicates a willingness to lie massively and go outside the law to keep power. It just looks like we weight that differently--you still seeing Trump as someone deserving of trust, who really didn't do anything all that bad. 

[Dill]

(07-01-2024, 05:20 PM)SSF Wrote: Outside of you and Trump just saying so, what is the evidence that a Trump presidency doesn't embolden our enemies? 

Where's the evidence that it does?  You're the one making a claim here.

I'm not the only one making a claim here. 

You've already seen a good deal of evidence--e.g., that US allies worry about a Trump presidency.
But you're not sure why Putin should like that? 

Trump's own NSC advisor thinks Trump behavior and policy aligned with Moscow's wishes. 

But Trump claims that he was tuff on Russia. Your counter-evidence goes no further than his claims. 
His word is enough for you. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-01-2024, 10:21 PM)Dill Wrote: I'm not the only one making a claim here. 

You've already seen a good deal of evidence--e.g., that US allies worry about a Trump presidency.

Yeah, NATO allies whinging because Trump gives them shit about historically failing to live up to their responsibilities isn't exactly the three alarm fire for me it is for you.  Are you actually suggesting something as stupid as Trump dissolving NATO?

Quote:But you're not sure why Putin should like that? 

Putin doesn't seem to give a shit when a "pro-NATO" POTUS is in office as he consistently invades his neighbors during their tenure.

Quote:Trump's own NSC advisor thinks Trump behavior and policy aligned with Moscow's wishes. 

Good for him.  I don't and don't see any evidence of that.  

Quote:But Trump claims that he was tuff on Russia. Your counter-evidence goes no further than his claims. 
His word is enough for you. 

No, actual facts are good enough for me.  Facts like the following.  Trump warned and exhorted NATO allies to start funding their military to stand up to Putin.  Trump warned NATO allies that Putin is an aggressor who uses energy as a billy club to extort and manipulate them.  Putin was inactive for the entire four years Trump was POTUS.  Before Trump he literally annexed the entire Crimea while Obama did not a damned thing.  Once Biden was in office he initiated a full scale invasion of Ukraine.  You'll have show me what tangible benefits Putin gained during Trump's administration that made him so uncharacteristically docile.  Actual hard proof, not the "belief" of a former employee with who knows what motivations.

C'mon Dill, you like hard facts, why are you so keen to ignore them in this case?

[JustWinBaby]

(07-01-2024, 05:09 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Imagine blaming the mishandling of Covid on Biden. Then again, these are the same voters who blamed Hurricane Katrina on Obama.

I'm sorry, did more people die from Covid under Biden then Trump?

Or not?


And here's the quiet part outloud: Trump left Biden a vaccine!!!!

[Mike M (the other one)]

(07-01-2024, 10:11 PM)Dill Wrote: You only answered half the question.

At least it didn't take him 3 pages of posts to get a half answer. 

(07-01-2024, 10:11 PM)Dill Wrote: Terms like "fiasco" are not very precise. I'm trying to review and compare Biden and Trump's border policies.
Seems the main difference is that Biden did things like stop stop separating parents from children and then send the parents
back home without them.  Trump invoked Title 42 to expel some 400,000 people. Biden kept it in force and expelled two million.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65574725?scrlybrkr=1ce9ec23

If the border is so bad, why would Trump and MAGA Republicans tank a bill addressing it? 

Do you only see what you want to see? 
Yes wonder how many more Biden would have expelled had he not rescinded it in the middle of the crisis. 
Trump has a much more aggressive interior enforcement that Biden killed first day.

You know what, the differences is too much to list out, just read the article yourself. Then we can talk about the differences or lack their of in Immigration policy between them

https://www.piie.com/blogs/realtime-economics/2024/comparing-trump-biden-major-immigration-policies


As far as that bill? Biden could have enacted an EO at ANY Time that pretty much did that, then had Congress ratify it to make it more legally binding and that bill didn't do nearly enough to curb Immigration. there was no such thing as zero people allowed to be processed, they still had a daily number to do even with the shutdown.

(07-01-2024, 10:11 PM)Dill Wrote: I agree the withdrawal from Afghanistan was bad. But it hardly rates with past military fiascos like the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut or even the withdrawal from Vietnam.   

I was NOT for withdrawing from Afghanistan. Both Trump and Biden were. And in my view, the central problem of the withdrawal was that the government there collapsed before the US withdrawal was complete. I don't see why Trump doesn't share part of the blame for everything you mention here, since he negotiated the US pullout directly with the Taliban (Trump trusted them), cutting out the government. That undermining was the prime reason for its premature collapse. 

Nothing in Biden's border handling or withdrawal from A-stan appear illegal; the problems associated with them look like the problems which usually follow from intractable difficult situations. Attempting a coup is something else, and indicates a willingness to lie massively and go outside the law to keep power. It just looks like we weight that differently--you still seeing Trump as someone deserving of trust, who really didn't do anything all that bad. 

After several years it was still a big money sink, we needed to get out. I know you love to blame Trump, but Biden could have reversed course and didn't.

Coup again, why are you changing it to a coup? It was clearly not a coup. But i know it fits your narrative to keep calling it that. It was a peaceful protest that turned into a riot. People on the left keep trying to change it to make it appear worse than what it was. So everytime now you call it a coup, i'm going to correct you. *god this could take a whle.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(07-02-2024, 01:43 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I'm sorry, did more people die from Covid under Biden then Trump?

Or not?


And here's the quiet part outloud:  Trump left Biden a vaccine!!!!

Didn't we just hit 1m with 400k of those from Trumps watch?

[BigPapaKain]

(07-02-2024, 01:43 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I'm sorry, did more people die from Covid under Biden then Trump?

Or not?


And here's the quiet part outloud:  Trump left Biden a vaccine!!!!

So you're blaming Biden for Trump slow playing Covid, letting it run rampant, and then telling his cultists to not take the vaccines?

[hollodero]

(07-02-2024, 10:39 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Coup again, why are you changing it to a coup? It was clearly not a coup.

Well, I respectfully object to the word clearly. The Capitol riot is one thing, but there's also a fake elector scheme, an attempt to get the VP to not certify the election, and the attempt to pressure a state secretary to find votes to overthrow the official result. Even detached from Trump, just looking at these (incomplete) events in a vacuum: I would not know what to call these things, if not a coup attempt.
Or say at the very least I would not deem it absurd to call it that.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(07-02-2024, 10:50 AM)hollodero Wrote: Well, I respectfully object to the word clearly. The Capitol riot is one thing, but there's also a fake elector scheme, an attempt to get the VP to not certify the election, and the attempt to pressure a state secretary to find votes to overthrow the official result. Even detached from Trump, just looking at these (incomplete) events in a vacuum: I would not know what to call these things, if not a coup attempt.
Or say at the very least I would not deem it absurd to call it that.

Did you see any military participation? 
Maybe I missed that report from MSM.