Biden vs. Trump debate

[HarleyDog]

(07-04-2024, 12:59 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Should she be thrown in jail also?

Yes. Many times over. I think Bill would agree. The things she did to DJT started a lot of this mess. She's a liar and a criminal and should have been arrested. Should still be arrested. I hope the day comes when I see it.

[Dill]

(07-02-2024, 12:10 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, NATO allies whinging because Trump gives them shit about historically failing to live up to their responsibilities isn't exactly the three alarm fire for me it is for you.  Are you actually suggesting something as stupid as Trump dissolving NATO?
Putin doesn't seem to give a shit when a "pro-NATO" POTUS is in office as he consistently invades his neighbors during their tenure.
Good for him.  I don't and don't see any evidence of that.  
No, actual facts are good enough for me.  Facts like the following.  Trump warned and exhorted NATO allies to start funding their military to stand up to Putin.  Trump warned NATO allies that Putin is an aggressor who uses energy as a billy club to extort and manipulate them.  Putin was inactive for the entire four years Trump was POTUS.  Before Trump he literally annexed the entire Crimea while Obama did not a damned thing.  Once Biden was in office he initiated a full scale invasion of Ukraine.  You'll have show me what tangible benefits Putin gained during Trump's administration that made him so uncharacteristically docile.  Actual hard proof, not the "belief" of a former employee with who knows what motivations.
C'mon Dill, you like hard facts, why are you so keen to ignore them in this case?

What a flurry of posts today. 
I almost forget this textbook example of an argument which begins with a conclusion and the adjusts evidence to confirm it.

If we start with the evidence, e.g., why is NATO "whining," we learn that Trump told them, more than once, that the US might pull out of NATO, while demanding they pay their "dues" (which shows he does not understand how the alliance works) or he will be happy to abandon alleged freeloaders to Putin. 

And this from the president who openly admires Putin and publicly took Putin's word over his own Intel services about Russian interference in the US election. That's enough to set our allies discussing contingency plans for security which no longer involve the US., and to turn them more sharply towards China as an economic partner. Even if you believe Trump when he says "no one has been tougher on Putin" his BFF, they do not. Trump, with party backing, could certainly pull the US out of NATO, with even greater damage to our power and credibility than his smashing of the Iran Deal. Even if he doesn't, the threat is disruptive and not "leadership." Today I spoke with a Bulgarian friend who's traveling Europe this summer and she remarked on the fear European governments have of another Trump presidency--except, of course, for Hungary. She says Trump does have support from anti-globalist, pro-Putin political factions in most countries. 

To the community of international foreign policy experts, Putin's invasions of Ukraine are a direct response to events on Russia's own border, and consistent with Putin anxieties about NATO and his announced foreign policy aims.  E.g., 2014 invasion followed the toppling of a pro-Kremlin president in Ukraine. Putin was content to leave the rest of Ukraine alone for the time being, while he continued consolidating power and building his military, as long as it aligned with his policies. And as long as a US-led NATO posed no immediate threat.

The trigger of the 2022 invasion again appears to be the election of an anti-Putin Ukrainian president who initiated a crackdown on Russian propaganda in Ukraine in 2020. Between Dec. 2020 and March 2021, Zelensky publicly stated a policy of de-integration from Russia and a pro-NATO policy aimed at eventual integration with NATO. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm. This followed by Putin's infamous 20-page diatribe on how Ukraine had always been part of Russia. 

Assuming Putin's inactivity during Trump's time in office was tied to fear of Trump, or that his invasions during pro NATO presidencies mean he doesn't give a shit about them, exhibits the same quality analysis displayed by people who blame an increase in gas prices on Biden shutting down the Keystone pipeline. It's based on simplistic notions of cause/effect in a vacuum of information, and it's very Amero-centric, unaware of regional dynamics in other parts of the world which play out independently of whom is US president.

Unless you are prepared to argue that Putin wanted a strong and undivided US, unified with a strong NATO ready to help defend border countries like the Ukraine, then it's hard to make the case that Putin received no "tangible benefit" from a president who diminished US power and influence on a number of international fronts, while driving a US domestic political crisis toward authoritarian solution. And of course Putin, unlike you, could see that coming in 2016. That's why his disinformation war took trump's side during that election.

[*pally*]

(07-04-2024, 12:59 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It appears the only one losing their shit over our constitution is you, the person not a US citizen.

Go back to 2020 election, look at a lot of voting irregularities in cities and states Trump was ahead and then lost.

Add it was a close election, Trump vs. Clinton was not close. Yet, HRC still says the election was stolen. What does she mean when she says it? Should she be thrown in jail also?

Hillary has not said the election was stolen nor has she even implied that the actual voting process was corrupted. She conceded the morning after the election and even attended Trump’s inauguration.

Trump had plenty of opportunities to prove his allegations in court and failed each and every time. The 2016 election was won by essentially the same electoral margin as 2020. Biden had a far larger popular vote victory. Trump had virtually the same % of the vote in both 2016 and 2020. Biden picked up nearly 5% of the vote that went 3rd party in 2016.

Vote counts change throughout the process depending on how fast the counting goes in each locale. It doesn’t matter who was ahead when only 60% of the cast ballots have been counted. It only matters at 100% counted. Small sparsely populated counties of course will finish faster than urban areas with millions of people. You are not going to know who wins in Virginia until the northern counties come in, Michigan until Detroit, Georgia until Atlanta, Pennsylvania until Philadelphia. This is especially true in those Republican run states where they didn’t allow any processing of absentee and mail in voting until the polls closed. Florida and Ohio, also Republican states, allowed those ballots to be processed so the only thing left to do on Election Day was run them through the machines to be counted. They were done at a reasonable hour.

If Democrats were so busy cheating to get the presidency, why didn’t they win governorships, state houses, senate and house races in all of these states. Why would they have cheated only at one level if they were already going to that much effort?

Trump lied to you about the election and he continues to lie to you. And you all don’t care

[Dill]

(07-04-2024, 01:41 AM)pally Wrote: If Democrats were so busy cheating to get the presidency, why didn’t they win governorships, state houses, senate and house races in all of these states. Why would they have cheated only at one level if they were already going to that much effort?

Trump lied to you about the election and he continues to lie to you.  And you all don’t care

Two excellent points here:

1. Why, if Democrats had the power to replace Trump votes with Biden, would they only target one item on the ballot. That would be some precision fraud.

2. MAGA only cares about claimed Biden/Dem lies. They are FINE with re-electing someone who successfully lied to manipulate masses of followers into helping him break the law to stay in power. 

Trump lies and criminal actions are so public and indisputable that it has set the RWMM working around the clock to create Dem lie and coup equivalences to justify their own acceptance of that lying and criminal behavior. They are groomed to dismiss any focus on Trump criminality as TDS but jump at any hyperbolic, false equivalence which puts Biden or Hilary on the same footing. 

"Something was odd about the 2016 election"=refusal to concede, submission of fake electors, and a mob sicced on the Capitol ="both sides" do it?  

My question is how did the judgement of so many voters become so broken that masses of them can actually entertain such false equivalences.

(07-04-2024, 01:07 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Yes. Many times over. I think Bill would agree. The things she did to DJT started a lot of this mess. She's a liar and a criminal and should have been arrested. Should still be arrested. I hope the day comes when I see it.

Whatever did Hilary do to "start this mess"?  What are her "criminal" actions? Has she sexually assaulted anyone? Committed financial fraud, plotted to invalidate an election she lost? 

You've told me you are as skeptical of the RWMM as the liberal press, so where is your information coming from? 

I don't hear you calling for Trump to be arrested, despite his plainly criminal actions.  Why the double standard? 

[Dill]

(07-03-2024, 06:21 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: In order for it to be a coup attempt, it must be planned. You say it was planned. Who planned it and did the DOJ charge them?

Trump, Mark Meadows, Giuliani, the RNC in the seven states that produced the slates of forged electors are the top planners. 
Leaders of the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers have been prosecuted by the DOJ and sentenced to prison.

States are responsible for prosecuting election fraud in their states.
I provided a link above regarding the the 5 states so far that are prosecuting RNC members for the fake elector plot. 

But here is another that I think is more comprehensive. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/20/us/politics/trump-trial-fake-electors-cases.html

PS regarding what you call "voting irregularities" whereby Trump was ahead and then fell behind.

That outcome was explained BEFORE the election--election day votes, predominately Republican, were counted first, then
mail in ballots, predominately Democrat, were counted later. Pollsters and statisticians constantly reminded people of this
on election night--even on Fox. That's not an "irregularity." 

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(07-03-2024, 07:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: As said, it's not about Jan 6 alone. You can very well hear Trump talk to Mr. Raffensperger about finding him enough votes to overturn the election results. It's on youtube for everyone to see. It's also quite undisputable that fake electors were chosen and that Trump tried to get Pence to not certify the election in what would have been a dereliction of his constitutional duty. I call that plenty of evidence.

The finding of votes, I think falls under DJT's mindset of the election being stolen and believing the votes were there to be found, it was just a matter of effort. The election was lost, or in his mind maybe slipping away and he was looking at all possibilities. It is part of the process, and I see no harm in the extra scrutiny, given all the changes and complications to the voting process due to navigating covid. Not to do so would be negligent and unfair to the voters and the process, but in the end you have to accept the findings.

The fake elector thing applies if he is directly orchestrating it, which I do not believe has been proven, though I may be wrong.

I believe asking the vie president to do something that is within his authority to do is not a coup, as Pence had free will to do whatever he wanted. But it is not something Pence could do, as I understand it, as his role in the process is ceremonial, and Pence even told DJT his did not have the authority to change the election outcome. For that reason, this one is dog does not hunt, and is off the table for the consideration of being a coup.

You see evidence, I see smoke.

If it was true evidence, he would be locked up, same as evidence of Joe Biden being involved with Hunter's foreign dealings. If there was hard evidence of access to the Big Guy being sold to China and the Ukraine, Joe Biden would be locked up as well.

Or so I would hope...

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(07-04-2024, 12:47 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I've concluded that it's the victim mentality. They saw an ant hill,  made it into a mountain,  and asked the whole world to believe it and sympathize with them. Jan 6 was blown so badly out of proportion, but it's something the left can cling to with clutched fists. 

Batten down the hatches, because it is going to get worse.

That is all this election cycle will be about from the democrats. Insurrection nonsense, playing to emotions, and shameless pandering to various voter blocks.

[hollodero]

(07-03-2024, 11:32 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: First off, Trump Hates to lose. 
The 2020 election cycle wasn't normal, therefore he probably felt that the Dems cheated (somehow someway).

And why does that matter, exactly? I have to say. I am pretty astonished how much Trump's feelings factor into the evaluation of events, with you and many others. Oh, he really hates losing, he had a feeling he should have won, that excuses his behaviour. As it it were a viable defense, one that I have not seen ever work in court. 'Oh sure violence is wrong, but then again I really hated the guy and I really felt he deserved a beating, so... innocent?'

It's particularly surprising since it comes from the party that usually shames and belittles liberals for being all about emotion and being crybabies and whatnot. But as soon as Trump 'feels' and 'hates', it suddenly counts. I don't get it.

(07-03-2024, 11:32 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: The fake electors were nothing more than an attempt to cause confusion and give Trump something to hang his hat on by saying it was stolen so he had a way out to save face. It was never intended to be a "coup" that's just leftist TDS kicking in, none of this would have ever held up in court (Trump knows it, We all Know it), it was just a sham all around to try to give Trump Supporters the idea that he won, and to setup his campaign for the next time. The protest turning into an "attack" on the capital was just more leftist attempts to do more dot connecting. They are separate events, but just so happen to occur at the same time. 

The fake electors were meant to muddy the waters so Pence has a reason to not certify the election. That's what Trump wanted on Jan 6, it's why he was mad at Pence for not following through, it's also why some of his supporters erected gallows for him. So imho, the events are very well connected.

(07-03-2024, 11:32 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I think that anyone that thinks this was a coup, is entitled to their opinion, just like i am mine.

Sure we are. We are not entitled to not reap contradiction though.

[hollodero]

(07-04-2024, 12:59 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It appears the only one losing their shit over our constitution is you, the person not a US citizen.

Found a new line of attack? Congrats.

(07-04-2024, 12:59 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Go back to 2020 election, look at a lot of voting irregularities in cities and states Trump was ahead and then lost.

Ah. You just said that voter fraud was not happening. Now you imply that voter fraud was happening. Make up your mind.

(07-04-2024, 12:59 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Add it was a close election, Trump vs. Clinton was not close. Yet, HRC still says the election was stolen. What does she mean when she says it? Should she be thrown in jail also?

I mean, you know better, it's not remotely comparable. What were her illegal actions regarding the lost election? What did she do in the face of the loss that would warrant jailtime? Nothing, that's what.

[*pally*]

(07-04-2024, 08:20 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Batten down the hatches, because it is going to get worse.

That is all this election cycle will be about from the democrats. Insurrection nonsense, playing to emotions, and shameless pandering to various voter blocks.

right and Trump appeals to the logical thinking crowd with his thoughtful well spoken campaign speeches carefully laying out how he plans to achieve his agenda

Trump complained the votes were rigged when he didn't win an Emmy for The Apprentice.  He claimed the votes were rigged in each and every 2016 Primary loss.  He even claimed the popular vote was rigged when he lost.

If he honestly thinks he won the 2020 election he is mentally ill.  His delusions are controlling his thinking.  Because of that belief, he led millions off the cliff like lemmings

[hollodero]

(07-04-2024, 08:08 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: The finding of votes, I think falls under DJT's mindset of the election being stolen and believing the votes were there to be found, it was just a matter of effort. The election was lost, or in his mind maybe slipping away and he was looking at all possibilities. It is part of the process, and I see no harm in the extra scrutiny

Hard no. Calling a state secretary and pressuring him to find him votes is not a normal part of the process. Again I will try the "if the shoe was on the other foot" argument. What would you say if Biden could be heard on the phone threatening a state secretary to find him votes to overturn an unfavorable result? All normal, nothing to see here, just a little extra scrutiny? I doubt any of you that defend Trump on that one would not be appalled if a democrat did the same thing.

(07-04-2024, 08:08 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: given all the changes and complications to the voting process due to navigating covid. Not to do so would be negligent and unfair to the voters and the process, but in the end you have to accept the findings.

Something Trump never did though. To this day he runs around and shouts fraud and stolen election and how he actually won in a landslide.

(07-04-2024, 08:08 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: The fake elector thing applies if he is directly orchestrating it, which I do not believe has been proven, though I may be wrong.

I'm not sure either, to be candid. I can not imagine that he wasn't fully aware of the scheme though. His advisor Mr. Navarro astonishingly laid out the plan on TV. And it was a basis for ordering Pence to not certify the election on Jan 6, so his involvement in the whole scheme, imho, is clear enough. There's just no way that Trump did not know about it. So to me he's morally guilty of participating in that conspiracy, legally he might be able to claim ignorance, I don't know.

(07-04-2024, 08:08 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: I believe asking the vie president to do something that is within his authority to do is not a coup, as Pence had free will to do whatever he wanted. But it is not something Pence could do, as I understand it, as his role in the process is ceremonial, and Pence even told DJT his did not have the authority to change the election outcome. For that reason, this one is dog does not hunt, and is off the table for the consideration of being a coup.

That is the first decent defense I've heard so far. I think your assessment is widely true. Though imho, it was clear enough what Trump's intentions were, that he used the fake electors to bolster the claim of an uncertifyable result, and imho it is also undisputable that he wanted to stay in power despite having lost the election, with zero evidence that he actually won in a landslide were it not for massive fraud. And when Pence did not follow through with the plan, Trump wrote angry tweets about him while the violence on the Capitol already played out on live TV. Again, morally, to me that makes him guilty for (clumsily, sure, and without any real chance of success) trying a coup, and there's no way around it. In court, that's something else.

(07-04-2024, 08:08 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: You see evidence, I see smoke.

OK. One instance where I feel it's particularly hard to claim smoke without a fire is the call to Mr. Raffensperger though. Trump can be heard on tape asking him to find him votes, "give me a break", and made clear that it would be a big risk to not follow his wishes.
It's also the instance where legal troubles did ensue, so imho your "he would be locked up if there were evidence" argument falls flat. He quite possibly would be if the justice system weren't so slow, a former president wasn't so particualrly hard to prosecute and if Mrs. Willis weren't so unprofessional.

(07-04-2024, 08:08 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: If it was true evidence, he would be locked up, same as evidence of Joe Biden being involved with Hunter's foreign dealings. If there was hard evidence of access to the Big Guy being sold to China and the Ukraine, Joe Biden would be locked up as well.

Or so I would hope...

Me too, in both instances.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(07-04-2024, 11:17 AM)pally Wrote: right and Trump appeals to the logical thinking crowd with his thoughtful well spoken campaign speeches carefully laying out how he plans to achieve his agenda

Trump complained the votes were rigged when he didn't win an Emmy for The Apprentice.  He claimed the votes were rigged in each and every 2016 Primary loss.  He even claimed the popular vote was rigged when he lost.

If he honestly thinks he won the 2020 election he is mentally ill.  His delusions are controlling his thinking.  Because of that belief, he led millions off the cliff like lemmings

Here we go again...

You do not like DJT, we all get it.

The gymnastics of you calling DJT mentally ill while Biden has been shown cognitively impaired for some time, so much so that he was deemed unfit to stand trail, coupled with your own display of TDS, is adorable.

[hollodero]

(07-04-2024, 11:51 AM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Here we go again...

You do not like DJT, we all get it.

The gymnastics of you calling DJT mentally ill while Biden has been shown cognitively impaired for some time, so much so that he was deemed unfit to stand trail, coupled with your own display of TDS, is adorable.

To be fair though. What was said is that if he honestly believes he won the 2020 election, then he'd be mentally ill - there's clear doubt though that Trump actually believes it, that was the actual point, that he probably knows better and lies about it.

I for one would say that if Trump honestly believes he won in 2020, he at the very least is delusional up to the point where he can not accept reality. Is that less severe than mentally ill, possibly, but it sure also is not good. There's no gymnastics involved and no matter the mental state of Biden, it still would not be good.

[Dill]

Some Independence Day thoughts aimed at everyone and no one in particular about the discussion on this thread.

1. I'm amazed at the distortion/stretching of political/legal definitions required to defend Trump and attack Democrats.
 
E.g., some can't agree that a violent attack on the Capitol coordinated with a forged elector scheme to keep Trump in power constitutes a coup. There is a consensus of political science scholarship on the history of coups and their definition* which shows that the Capitol insurrection was exactly that. But some add stipulations like "the military wasn't involved" or "it couldn't succeed" (as if they know what would happen with Trump still in control of the DOJ) to tailor a definition which saves Trump. Others work backwards, assuming that if Trump has not been convicted, then it must be because it wasn't a coup. That's like saying a lynching wasn't a lynching if no one was convicted for it.
 
On the other hand, efforts by "the media" and those responsible for national security to block disinformation from foreign and domestic actors is now defined by some as "suppression" and THE REAL COUP.  Nevermind that many of the bad actors disseminating or platforming Trump disinformation have been disbarred or forced to pay hundreds of millions in damages.  So an alternative narrative is spun up--if only "the truth" about the HB laptop had been revealed, and if only Dems had not "lied" about Trump's difficulty denouncing white supremacists, then voters would have reacted differently to his COVID mismanagement. Meanwhile, all massive Trump lies about "the steal"--debunked by his own DOJ--not to mention such reprehensible behavior as doxxing innocent election workers, just fall out of sight. Those who believed the lies used to manipulate them to Trump's ends did so "legitimately." 
 
2. The RWMM, especially Fox, has become a party organ, and the party itself has become a regime party, focused on enabling and protecting its leader, accepting his definition of political reality, what happened or did not in 2020, who deserves jail, etc. In consequence, false equivalences to meet any contingency can be generated in two days and widely disseminated in MAGA world in less than a week, to appear in venues like this forum. No difference between a Hilary question about the validity of the election (long after she conceded) and Trump's full blown attempt to actually usurp power. No difference between past, wholly legal construction of alternative electors and Trump/RNC secret plotting to substitute illegal ones in hopes of managing the resulting chaos in their favor. And some purported "media coup," or even the Russia investigation, are as much attempts to usurp state power as an actual, planned, three-pronged attempt to get around a valid election by throwing it all to the House. If MAGA is a cult then so are the Biden dems. If Trump is corrupt then so is Biden (and there was a years-long House investigation which almost proved it) though only Biden should be prosecuted. "Both sides” do it. So easy to take Trump "out of context" when claims the election was stolen or doxxes a judge's family.
 
3. And now we are on the verge of another angry, chaotic Trump presidency, in which he will be set for retribution in the wake of SCOTUS rulings which both enable his mission to revise the executive and pursue revenge, and to protect him from criminal liability. Even his own lawyers would not be able to tell him what is now actually legal or illegal, should they even wish to.  This time around, all the people who tried to keep him inside the law will be gone, replaced by yes men who are only appointed if they agree to accept Trump's alternative reality. Why shouldn't we expect to see the continuance of legal definitions shrunk to protect Trump and expanded to expose his opponents to prosecution and imprisonment? That along with the disruptions promised by Project 2025?
 
4. And finally, there is the refusal to engage in rational debate about the consequences of 1-3 for US democracy, dismissing concerns about the concentration of power in the hands of a vengeful, unstable person ready to abuse it, with the backing of his court, his party, and his media, as “doomsaying” TDS while, embracing Trump's alternative definitions of reality outright (“They’re prosecuting me to protect Joe, the worst president in history; he weaponized the DOJ”), or minimizing their danger. Supposedly four more years of Trump under these new circumstances would be pretty much like his last four years and we survived that just fine with all the impeachments and insurrection and McConnell promises that a president could be held criminally accountable once out of office rendering impeachment conviction unnecessary. A little less stability in foreign and domestic policy and a little less democracy are a small price to pay for saving us from the LGBQT and green-loving "left." 
 
* An example of which I posted in # 283 "The end goal of a coup is placing some person or group of people in control of the state—specifically, people who would not otherwise be in that position under the uninterrupted operation of existing constitutional law. The two irreducible elements are the seizure of power and doing so unlawfully.

[StoneTheCrow]

(07-04-2024, 12:13 PM)Dill Wrote: Some Independence Day thoughts aimed at everyone and no one in particular about the discussion on this thread.

1. I'm amazed at the distortion/stretching of political/legal definitions required to defend Trump and attack Democrats.
 
E.g., some can't agree that a violent attack on the Capitol coordinated with a forged elector scheme to keep Trump in power constitutes a coup. There is a consensus of political science scholarship on the history of coups and their definition* which shows that the Capitol insurrection was exactly that. But some add stipulations like "the military wasn't involved" or "it couldn't succeed" (as if they know what would happen with Trump still in control of the DOJ) to tailor a definition which saves Trump. Others work backwards, assuming that if Trump has not been convicted, then it must be because it wasn't a coup. That's like saying a lynching wasn't a lynching if no one was convicted for it.
 
On the other hand, efforts by "the media" and those responsible for national security to block disinformation from foreign and domestic actors is now defined by some as "suppression" and THE REAL COUP.  Nevermind that many of the bad actors disseminating or platforming Trump disinformation have been disbarred or forced to pay hundreds of millions in damages.  So an alternative narrative is spun up--if only "the truth" about the HB laptop had been revealed, it would have peeled off enough votes to give us four more years of Trump chaos. And if only Dems had not "lied" about Trump's difficulty denouncing white supremacists. Meanwhile, all massive Trump lies about "the steal"--debunked by his own DOJ--not to mention such reprehensible behavior as doxxing innocent election workers, just fall out of sight. Those who believed the lies used to manipulate them to Trump's ends did so "legitimately." 
 
2. The RWMM, especially Fox, has become a party organ, and the party itself has become a regime party, focused on enabling and protecting its leader, accepting his definition of political reality, what happened or did not in 2020, who deserves jail, etc. In consequence, false equivalences to meet any contingency can be generated in two days and widely disseminated in MAGA world in less than a week, to appear in venues like this forum. No difference between a Hilary question about the validity of the election (long after she conceded) and Trump's full blown attempt to actually usurp power. No difference between past, wholly legal construction of alternative electors and Trump/RNC secret plotting to substitute illegal ones in hopes of managing the resulting chaos in their favor. And some purported "media coup," or even the Russia investigation, are as much attempts to usurp state power as an actual, planned, three-pronged attempt to get around a valid election by throwing it all to the House. If MAGA is a cult then so are the Biden dems. If Trump is corrupt then so is Biden (and the was a House investigation which almost proved it) though only Biden should be prosecuted. "Both sides” do it. 
 
3. And now we are on the verge of another angry, chaotic Trump presidency, in which he will be set for retribution in the wake of SCOTUS rulings which both enable his mission to revise the executive and pursue revenge, and to protect him from criminal liability. Even his own lawyers would not be able to tell him what is now actually legal or illegal, should they even wish to.  This time around, all the people who tried to keep him inside the law will be gone, replaced by yes men who are only appointed if they agree to accept Trump's alternative reality. Why shouldn't we expect to see the continuance of legal definitions shrunk to protect Trump and expanded to expose his opponents to prosecution and imprisonment? That along with the disruptions promised by Project 2025?
 
4. And finally, there is the refusal to engage in rational debate about the consequences of 1-3 for US democracy, dismissing concerns about the concentration of power in the hands of a vengeful, unstable person ready to abuse it, with the backing of his court, his party, and his media, as “doomsaying” TDS while, embracing Trump's alternative definitions of reality outright (“They’re prosecuting me to protect Joe, the worst president in history”), or minimizing their danger. Supposedly four more years of Trump under these new circumstances would be pretty much like his last four years and we survived that just fine with all the impeachments and insurrection and McConnell promises that a president could be held criminally accountable once out of office rendering impeachment conviction unnecessary. A little less stability in foreign and domestic policy and a little less democracy are a small price to pay for saving us from the LGBQT and green-loving "left." 
 
* An example of which I posted in # 283 "The end goal of a coup is placing some person or group of people in control of the state—specifically, people who would not otherwise be in that position under the uninterrupted operation of existing constitutional law. The two irreducible elements are the seizure of power and doing so unlawfully.

Read the bolded number two and would rather have an M80 do a Jason Pierre-Paul to my hand than to read the rest after the week your media and party have had.

Happy 4th!

[Dill]

(07-04-2024, 12:17 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Read the bolded number two and would rather have an M80 do a Jason Pierre-Paul to my hand than to read the rest after the week your media and party have had.

Happy 4th!

Thanks for the good wishes, Stone, though I wish you'd made it to the 4th, at least to the bolded.

[StoneTheCrow]

(07-04-2024, 12:20 PM)Dill Wrote: Thanks for the good wishes, Stone, though I wish you'd made it to the 4th, at least to the bolded.

Maybe later, cheers!

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-04-2024, 12:17 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Read the bolded number two and would rather have an M80 do a Jason Pierre-Paul to my hand than to read the rest after the week your media and party have had.

Happy 4th!

The main stream media tacitly or actively colluded with the Biden administration to hide his increasingly worse dementia and the left wing response is, "Hey look, Fox News!"  Anyone who isn't upset over this willful deception puts party over country, an accusation they frequently hurl themselves.

Enjoy your 4th as well!  

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(07-04-2024, 12:02 PM)hollodero Wrote: To be fair though. What was said is that if he honestly believes he won the 2020 election, then he'd be mentally ill - there's clear doubt though that Trump actually believes it, that was the actual point, that he probably knows better and lies about it.

I for one would say that if Trump honestly believes he won in 2020, he at the very least is delusional up to the point where he can not accept reality. Is that less severe than mentally ill, possibly, but it sure also is not good. There's no gymnastics involved and no matter the mental state of Biden, it still would not be good.

I have always called DJT the P.T. Barnum of politics. He is over the top, hyperbolic, and everything he does is the best, most magnificent, luxurious, perfect thing. I love watching him as I see him as a heel in wrestling working crowds for "pops." I think he has long realized he lost the 2020 election, but going the other way publicly works up zealots and generates cash. The dems do it to, but other issues, but I digress. I think there was enough questionable stuff going on with the 2020 election than it will remain a talking point for some time. I only hope we can all learn from the multitude of mistakes made.

I have also long said he is the perfect candidate for the left to attack and take out of context for the same reason, because it is so easy and there is ample material. The problem comes when legit material comes up, because they have scrambled after every red herring, no one takes them seriously because they have damaged their own reputation.

The thing about DJT few realize is that he is basically a stand up comic of the political world. In stand up, you work hundreds of gigs across the country, trying out new material to see what "pops" best. He draws massive crowds and draws more supporters based on the success of his worked routine of speeches.  He knows what plays to the crowd and spoon feeds it to them once he knows it works. It is a simple formula., and it works for him. 

DJT is playing to the people and those voting for him either mostly believe him, or prefer him over the man who is not allowed his dignity.

[Dill]

(07-04-2024, 11:33 AM)hollodero Wrote: The fake elector thing applies if he is directly orchestrating it, which I do not believe has been proven, though I may be wrong.

I'm not sure either, to be candid. I can not imagine that he wasn't fully aware of the scheme though. His advisor Mr. Navarro astonishingly laid out the plan on TV. And it was a basis for ordering Pence to not certify the election on Jan 6, so his involvement in the whole scheme, imho, is clear enough. There's just no way that Trump did not know about it. So to me he's morally guilty of participating in that conspiracy, legally he might be able to claim ignorance, I don't know.

Well Jack Smith agrees with you Hollo, and thinks he has the documentary and testimonial evidence to back that up. 

10 B, page 5, of the federal indictment clearly puts Trump in charge of everything, https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23893895-8441452-0-67382, though his minions gradually developed the plan when efforts to turn the DOJ failed. 

For the sake of balance though, I'll remind folks that Hilary said she thought something was fishy about the election--and she got off scott free!!