Black Sunday

[GMDino]

(11-26-2018, 12:15 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Look I believe in the words on The Statue of Liberty, and i'm happy to welcome those fleeing oppression, but you do it our way, even if you think our way is stupid,  and if that is too much of a burden, then turn around.  

Some (most?) are doing it "our way".  The ones that are not are being dealt with.

Closing the legal point because of the others caused the confrontations yesterday that led to the tear gas being used.  That's the bottom line.

[Bengalzona]

(11-26-2018, 12:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't think you have any idea of the costs in both time and money to do what you propose.  Where do we keep them while we run them through legal channels?  If you detain them then the left loses their mind.  If you release them with a future court date the majority do not appear for this court date.  Also, the courts are backed up in this process.  Also, letting this group in simply encourages the next group, where does this cycle stop?

People want to make this a racial issue, it isn't.  People wants to be compassionate to others, understandable.  I fail to see how any nation can justify letting in poor migrants when they have millions of people living on the streets.  

Actually, there are ways to see the costs as this is how it has been done in the past 30 years. And compared with the masses that came 20 or 30 years ago, this little "mob" is a flea compared to an elephant (i.e. border control was a far greater problem 20-30 years ago, one that was ignored by some of the same people who are screaming bloody murder about it today).

We detain people at the border, as we have always done. We just don't have to do new "punishment" type detainment such as separating parents from their kids in order to prove to the world that we are just as unfeeling as the dictators and tyrants of the world. The fact that we were different in that regard was one of the things that actually did make America great, rather than a lip service slogan.

I agree about releasing them: It doesn't work. We shouldn't do it.

The courts are intentionally backed up because one party decided to stop approving appointments from the other party for 6 years so that they could wait and "stack" the judicial system. Well, the 6 years ended. That party has now had 2 years to "rush" through their partisan appointments. Why weren't they able to get that done (or anything else constructive, for that matter)? This appears to be a problem that the GOP manufactured purely for the reason of justifying inhumane treatment to others. When does that cycle stop? When we start machine gunning people on the border? When we set landmines? Is that what will make America great?

Letting immigrants in and letting them become citizens are two very different things, just as letting immigrants in and detaining them is different than letting them in and releasing them into the population. Detention is viable, we just don't have to be sadistic asshats in how we do it.

[GMDino]

I've shared this before but if you want a quickish overview on how the border policy got to where it was before Trump give this a listen.

http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/25-general-chapman's-last-stand

Quote:"Good fences make good neighbors. Or maybe not."

General Leonard Chapman guided the Marines Corp through some of the most difficult years in its history. He was brilliant, organized, decisive and indefatigable. Then he turned his attention to the America’s immigration crisis. You think you want effective leadership? Be careful what you wish for.

[Benton]

(11-26-2018, 11:37 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Just curious, what would you suggest as an alternative?  Let mobs storm our border with impunity?  I wonder if you realize the kind of precedent that would set.

Their ninja-like tactics caught us completely off guard. I mean, we only had like, what, a month's knowledge that thousands of people were headed to us on foot? And step-by-step progress updates by both CNN and Fox News? I don't know how in that time frame we couldn't have come up with a better plan than 'gas 'em!'

Seriously, though, this is why Trump is a dangerous liability. He treats foreign policy like he treats women. As a guy with multiple ex-wives and allegedly millions paid to mistresses, that's not a good thing.

The gas and the caravan could have been avoided with a better relationship with Mexico. We could've handled it like we have other large migration groups in the past, with a mix of diplomacy and security. We talk to our southern allies, find somewhere for the people to go and then make sure they make it there. This isn't the first time America has had to deal with migration chunks. It's not like we used to shoot the rafts out from under the Cubans or play whack-a-mole with Mexicans coming out of tunnels.

This isn't Cleveland.

(11-26-2018, 12:01 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Wait until they cross and apprehend them. They are pretty easy to spot and catch, especially the mothers and children. Run them through the legal channels and send them back if they don't have good cause to be here.

When did we get cheap and lazy about this?

Agreed.

[jj22]

Trump: "I'm tough on the border, tougher then any other POTUS ever, the days of America being weak at border are over. Fake News media get over it. America first, toughest on immigration, finally a courageous President, one who defends the borders etc"

Trump Supporters/Defenders: We finally have a President that cares about America. No more ISIS sympathizer/MuslimBrotherhood/Globalist/Open Border Presidents ruining our borders.

News Media: Showing children in cages and gassed.

Trump: "This is no different then what Obama did. Where was the Fake News outraged then? Where was the pictures of these kids then".

Trump Supporters: Exactly where was this outrage when Obama had been doing this for 8 years.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/pb/nation/2018/11/26/trump-attacks-fake-minutes-phony-story-family-separations-border/?nid=menu_nav_accessibilityforscreenreader&outputType=accessibility&utm_term=.1fb903010194

You want to feel bad for Trump Supporters/Defenders, but it's not like we don't keep warning them they are being conned. Fool me once on you, Fool me thousands of times..... well.

[*bfine32*]

Trump tried to deter them peacefully and that made folks mad too.

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 02:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Trump tried to deter them peacefully and that made folks mad too.

How many asylum claims have been processed since they arrived a week ago?

What is Trump doing to address the backlog?  Has he authorized more judges and immigration personnel to help fix the problem?

Seems to me his answer is to just eliminate all claims for asylum.  Do you think that is the right thing to do?

[*bfine32*]

(11-26-2018, 02:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How many asylum claims have been processed since they arrived a week ago?

 What is Trump doing to address the backlog?  Has he authorized more judges and immigration personnel to help fix the problem?

Seems to me his answer is to just eliminate all claims for asylum.  Do you think that is the right thing to do?

These are all great questions, unfortunately they do not address the issue at hand. Folks were told not to come here illegally, they attempted to enter illegally, they were deterred with non-lethal munitions.

I've seen reports on the asylum conditions and it's sad, but it's currently Mexico's (or a UN) issue. Our issue is to protect our borders from illegal entry

[Dill]

(11-26-2018, 11:56 AM)GMDino Wrote:
How many are there?  How many do we allow in normally.

Why would they shut it down at all?

Why are they not trying to fund it so they can be processed instead of spending to have the military there?

Of course we can't "absorb the entirety of Central and South America's poor".  I hope the guy who complains about hyperbole onthe board sees that one.  

If you are speaking only of those LEGALLY ADMITTED with refugee status, then the average under Obama was about 110,000 per year.  In 2018 so far (almost December) the number is 21,000 processed.  (In 1980, Carter admitted 207,000.)

Since we cannot absorb the entirety of Central and South America's poor, someone less myopic than yourself could easily that we must now massively reduce the current rate of acceptance by 70%+.   There is no alternative.

As far as those gassed children go, I blame the parents. Same if we end up shooting some of those kids, because I understand it is either that or let in millions from everywhere.  If you don't want your children gassed then don't walk 1500 miles to OUR border with YOUR problems. Keep them back in Guatemala, El Salvador and the Honduras; complain to the right wing governments we installed there for you to protect you against communism. This is no problem of our making.

[Dill]

(11-26-2018, 02:05 PM)jj22 Wrote: Trump: "I'm tough on the border, tougher then any other POTUS ever, the days of America being weak at border are over. Fake News media get over it. America first, toughest on immigration, finally a courageous President, one who defends the borders etc"

Trump Supporters/Defenders: We finally have a President that cares about America. No more ISIS sympathizer/MuslimBrotherhood/Globalist/Open Border Presidents ruining our borders.

News Media: Showing children in cages and gassed.

Trump: "This is no different then what Obama did. Where was the Fake News outraged then? Where was the pictures of these kids then".

Trump Supporters: Exactly where was this outrage when Obama had been doing this for 8 years.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/pb/nation/2018/11/26/trump-attacks-fake-minutes-phony-story-family-separations-border/?nid=menu_nav_accessibilityforscreenreader&outputType=accessibility&utm_term=.1fb903010194

You want to feel bad for Trump Supporters/Defenders, but it's not like we don't keep warning them they are being conned. Fool me once on you, Fool me thousands of times..... well.

Trump supporters may be conned about the economy, but I don't think they are conned by Trump's foreign policy, including his immigration policy.

First, Trump cannot really "con" them because he doesn't really know more than they do about these subjects, and is influenced by the same conspiracy theories.  If I believe fluoridation is a communist plot and attempt to convince you of that, I am not conning you. I am myself conned and spreading a conspiracy theory. (And I certainly should not be president.)

Second, Trump's supporters support the tear gassing and separation of children from parents. The latter was INTENDED to scare immigrants from the U.S.  Trump is not "fooling" them. He is doing what they want, and would deploy far crueler deterrence if stoopid human rights and liberals and the UN did not stand in the way.

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 03:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've seen reports on the asylum conditions and it's sad, but it's currently Mexico's (or a UN) issue. Our issue is to protect our borders from illegal entry

There is absolutely nothing illegal about surrendering to authorities at the border to request asylum.

In fact the US has a duty towards refugees based on the agreement from the 1951 UN Refugee Convention.

[*bfine32*]

(11-26-2018, 03:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is absolutely nothing illegal about surrendering to authorities at the border to request asylum.

In fact the US has a duty towards refugees based on the agreement from the 1951 UN Refugee Convention.

There sure isn't. That's why I said our job is to deter illegal entry. Do you even read what I type?

[Dill]

(11-26-2018, 02:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Trump tried to deter them peacefully and that made folks mad too.

Peacefully separating children from parents didn't work. Maybe gassing them will.

[*bfine32*]

(11-26-2018, 03:48 PM)Dill Wrote: Peacefully separating children from parents didn't work. Maybe gassing them will.

Or maybe, just maybe, legal entry is the pragmatic answer.

[jj22]

(11-26-2018, 03:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: There sure isn't. That's why I said our job is to deter illegal entry. Do you even read what I type?

Yes, you clearly said you was fine with the kids being gassed.

Because well Trump tried to be nice and they didn't listen (which Fred rightfully pointed out the asylum process these people are attempting and yet Administration is ignoring).

We got it.

Trump supporters have been gleeful all day about the images of those (mostly kids) getting gassed at the border.

[*bfine32*]

(11-26-2018, 03:53 PM)jj22 Wrote: Yes, you clearly said you was fine with the kids being gassed.

Because well Trump tried to be nice and they didn't listen (which Fred rightfully pointed out the asylum process these people are attempting and yet Administration is ignoring).

We got it.

Trump supporters have been gleeful all day about the images of those (mostly kids) getting gassed at the border.

I am not fine we children being gassed and have never said so. I have placed the responsibility where I feel it belongs.

I have never once said we should not process asylum seekers that are doing it the right way. I'm just saying no cutting in line by breaking the law.

No one in their right mind is gleeful that kids are getting gassed. Just stop it.

[Benton]

(11-26-2018, 02:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Trump tried to deter them peacefully and that made folks mad too.

(11-26-2018, 03:48 PM)Dill Wrote: Peacefully separating children from parents didn't work. Maybe gassing them will.

(11-26-2018, 03:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Or maybe, just maybe, legal entry is the pragmatic answer.

Trump tried to deter them by arresting them and charging them, which resulted in separating them. That was his answer. It wasn't his goal (I don't think) but that was the result.

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 03:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Or maybe, just maybe, legal entry is the pragmatic answer.

There is nothing illegal about surrendering to authorities at the border to request asylum.

[jj22]

Trumps made his supporters think it is. So the truth is irrelevant (or Fake News).

Now they are stuck on the side of defending the gassing of "mobs" made up mostly of toddlers.

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 11:44 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Incorrect.  Simply because something doesn't proceed as fast as you would prefer does not mean it has stopped.  

How many applications for asylum have been taken in the week since these people arrived?