Bob McGinn evaluations of our drafted players

[CJD]

Bob McGinn did a series of articles about each position group in the draft and it's all really good stuff.

I won't post the whole articles, because they're behind a pay wall, but I think it's okay to post the snips about the players we drafted, specifically.

Quote:1. JOE BURROW, LSU (6-3 ½, 229, no 40, 1): After three seasons backing up J.T. Barrett and Dwayne Haskins at Ohio State, he transferred to LSU and posted a 90.6 NFL passer rating in 2018. Last year, buoyed by the installation of the Saints’ offense by new coordinator Joe Brady, he posted an otherworldly rating of 143.7. “I’ve never seen anything quite like this before,” one scout with 30-plus years in the business said. “He totally dominated college football. He was fascinating to watch. He just reminded me of Peyton Manning. The way that nothing seemed to concern him. When he had to yell at people, he yelled. When he didn’t, he was calm.” He joined Davey O’Brien, Johnny Lujack, Matt Leinart, Cam Newton and Jameis Winston as Heisman Trophy winners who also won the national championship with undefeated teams. “He has a good enough arm and he runs pretty good,” said another scout. “But he has elite, magical ability to process quickly, and his accuracy is unbelievable. Those are the two most important things. Great kid, he’s a leader, tough as shit. He’s a coach’s kid and he’ll play a long time. He doesn’t have near the arm talent of Matthew Stafford, but I bet he wins more.” He received a late-round grade a year ago from National Football Scouting. “Never had a guy in the summer I felt he was a backup and in November I said this guy might be the best player in the draft,” said a third scout. “I’ve never seen a guy play at such an efficient level. If people had truth serum poured down their throat, they waited all year for him to fall off the wagon. ‘This can’t be real.’ But he didn’t have a bad quarter all season. And you’re talking about Auburn, Bama, SEC defenses. There’s some reasonable doubt that he’s not going to be as good in the NFL. I don’t know how you can bottle what they put together at LSU this year, but there was magic to it. He was phenomenal.” Tommy Moffitt, the LSU strength coach for 20 years, held the same job at Tennessee when Manning played there. “He told the scouts that he puts them in the same breath,” one personnel man said. Second smallest hands (9 inches) among the top 12 quarterbacks. Scored 34 on the Wonderlic intelligence test. “No, no, no, no, no,” said a fourth scout when asked if Burrow could be compared to Matt Ryan and Kirk Cousins. “This guy’s big-time. Incredible timing and accuracy, incredible pocket poise. He’s amazing off-schedule. He plays with swagger. He doesn’t have a cannon, but he throws a nice deep ball.” From Athens, Ohio. “Can he do it at the next level? Does he have a strong enough arm?” said a fifth scout. “I don’t see it. I wouldn’t want him (as a high pick). He’s a great kid, he really is. I just don’t see him as the guy. His junior year he was the shits. Then they bring in the new offense, everything changed and he’s got all those great receivers around him, too. Nine-inch hands. Soft body build.”

(Not ranked behind anyone)

Quote:6. TEE HIGGINS, Clemson (6-3 ½, 215, 4.58, 1-2): More than one personnel man identified him as having the best hands in the draft. “He’s an outside-only guy,” one scout said. “He’s a contested, 50-50 ball guy with strong hands and a big catching radius. He may need some help getting open, but he can catch it. He’s going to be covered a lot but he’s got the catching radius.” Arms measured a position-best 34 1/8 but hands were a small 9 ¼. “Just worried about the 40 time and his inability to separate,” said another scout. “They match up. He is really good down the field going up and getting the football. But getting off press, which you don’t see a lot at the college level, for a guy that isn’t real twitchy, he’ll have to win with size at the line of scrimmage. I think eventually he’ll be able to do it, but it’s going to be a transition for him.” Caught 135 passes for 2,448 (18.1) and 27 TDs. “Behind Ruggs, he’d be my next pick to bust,” a third scout said. “For a big, athletic kind of guy I don’t think he plays very strong. I don’t think he plays very sudden. And I don’t think he’s very tough. For the type of receiver he has to be, being that big guy making plays over people, I just don’t see that grit and toughness that you need. I wasn’t surprised at all (by the slow 40). He’s a buildup (speed) guy. Lot of that (production) was scheming him.” Wonderlic of 11. From Oak Ridge, Tenn.

(Ranked behind Lamb, Jeudy, Ruggs, Jefferson and Aiyuk).

Quote:7. LOGAN WILSON, Wyoming (6-2, 238, 4.60, 3): Wilson is just the second player in the Cowboys’ history to be a three-time captain. “Really productive almost every game you put on,” one scout said. “He’s a good athlete, and he’s got prototypical NFL size. He’s got an ability to take on and use his hands. He sees the game pretty quickly.” That personnel man viewed Wilson as a starter with a chance to play every snap given pro experience. “He’s a sleeper almost, if you will,” said another scout. “He’s really good. He’s not a physical tackler, but he is tough, big and strong. He does enough of everything that matters.” He started 52 games, finishing with 421 tackles (35 for loss), seven sacks, 10 interceptions and 24 passes defensed. “Nice feel for the game,” said a third scout. “Can break down and make space tackles. Can run and cover ground.” Wilson posted a Wonderlic of 16 and is from Casper, Wyo.

8. AKEEM DAVIS-GAITHER, Appalachian State (6-1 ½, 224, no 40, 3): He started 30 of 55 games after redshirting in 2015. “Nickel backer,” said one scout. “Athletic guy with quickness, toughness and natural football skills. Will be an excellent special-teams player. Space player. Plays hard. He’s a modern-day linebacker.” Davis-Gaither was unable to run or work out at the combine because of foot surgery in March. “Not running will hurt him,” said another scout. “Never have a problem with this type of kid. Good athletic background.” His father, Keith, is WR coach at Army. He finished with 258 tackles (28 for loss) and eight sacks. “He can run,” said a third scout. “Low 4.5’s. Really high-character kid. He’s explosive on contact. He’s the new wave of NFL backer.” Davis-Gaither is from Thomasville, N.C.

(Ranked behind Simmons, Murray, Queen, Baun, Brooks and Gay).

Quote:8. HAKEEM ADENIJI, Kansas (6-4 ½, 301, 5.18, 4): Four-year starter at LT. “I like that guy,” one scout said. “He’s developed a lot over the last two years and has more to go. Maybe the volatility of that program has held him back a little bit. He had four different offensive line coaches during his time there. Smart kid, good kid, good athlete, has the right size, has the right feet, has the right length (33 ¾ arms). I think he’ll start out at guard, but ultimately I think he’d be better as a tackle because he’s more long and athletic than strong and stout.” His Wonderlic score of 34 led the top-10 guards and he had a strong week at the Senior Bowl. “I don’t like him,” said another scout. “Small-boned athlete. Not a very strong player. Hips get high in pass protection. Wish I saw better control of his body. Doesn’t always finish. … He just kind of creeps around and gets in the way. He’d be an oozer, too.” From Garland, Texas.

(Ranked behind Wirfs, Hunt, LeMieux, Jackson, Bartch, Lewis and Simpson at guard).

He did not have any sections on Kareem or Bailey, as he only did the top 15 prospects, but Kareem was the first "Others, in order," so he had him as the 16th ranked edge player, behind Young, Chaisson, Epenesa, Gross-Matos, Okwara, Anae, Uche, Taylor, Weaver, Zuniga, Strowbridge, Lewis, Greenard, Highsmith and Wonnum.

Bailey is his 25th rated LB.

What do you guys think? I love reading stuff like this.
Here's a link to the article series:
https://theathletic.com/tag/mcginns-draft-series/

Oh, there's also apparently an overview article he wrote before the series (maybe the Athletic asked him to do the whole series after this article's success or something?)


And there's some more snippets that I think people may like:

Quote:Joe Burrow, LSU (6-3 1/2, 221): He threw for a record 60 touchdowns after firing just 16 touchdown passes in 2018, his first season at LSU after three of backup duty at Ohio State. “The one-year wonder does worry you a little bit but he’s put so much good stuff on tape,” one scout said. “His last four or five games, that’s as good as any quarterback has played in a long time. Now, he had a great supporting cast. I get that. But, man, he was dialing it up. Just average physical tools. He’s not going to amaze you with his arm strength. He’s a good athlete but he’s not a great athlete. He’s not impressive, but it all came together. You love the makeup. He’s a coach’s son, and his understated swagger kind of as opposed to the overstated swagger of Baker (Mayfield).” He dominated voting for the Heisman Trophy and elected not to run or throw at the combine. “The interesting thing about him, when you look at his face, he reminds me of Peyton Manning,” another scout said. “You look into his eyes and see the determination. He’s a much better athlete than Manning. He can run, too. I estimated 4.7 (seconds in the 40). Peyton was more of a statue. The arm strength is about the same … and being resourceful and making excellent decisions. The composure, the confidence, the mental toughness. He’s special.”

Quote:Tee Higgins, Clemson (6-3 1/2, 216): He elected not to work at the combine but did test Thursday at Clemson’s pro day. “He’s got great size, he’s exceptionally athletic, his ball skills are top-notch and he’s a really good route runner,” said one scout. He caught 135 passes, averaged 18.1 yards per catch and had 27 touchdown receptions. “He wasn’t the best receiver at Clemson,” another scout said. “The sophomore, Justyn Ross, was. When they needed a big play, they went to Ross. Physical receiver, excellent strength, body control and hands. I question his top speed and explosion. Reminds me of Mike Williams, who San Diego drafted in the first round (in 2017). He’s more of a strong, possession-type guy than a top speed guy. I’d estimate he’s 4.55.”

Also, I think this may interest some people who are concerned about Higgins (or who may have preferred Mims).

Quote:Denzel Mims, Baylor (6-3, 207): A three-year starter with 28 touchdowns. “I would have thought no way in the world just watching him on tape and now he’s top 50,” one scout said. “He’s a big guy and ran fast. You see he’s got savvy, hands, good route runner. Kind of a limited route tree at Baylor. Just kind of a catch-and-get-tackled guy. You didn’t see the deep speed.” Had a big week at the Senior Bowl, especially in the red zone, and then ran 4.38 seconds in the 40. His arms measured 33 7/8 inches. “He has strength and hands but I don’t think he’s anything special,” another scout said. “In the Big 12 Championship Game, Parnell Motley (of Oklahoma) totally shut him down and he’s a late-round pick. He’s a guy that makes the possession catches.”

So these reports are pretty negative about a lot of players hahaha.

https://theathletic.com/1665631/2020/03/17/mcginn-scouts-size-up-their-top-prospects-on-offense/

[corpjet]

I had the same concerns about Tee Higgins, he was a man amongst boys in college and bullied his way to make the contested catch, don't think that will happen at the next level. Played with one of the nations best passers (T Lawrence aka Joe Dirt) and one of the best teams in the country which doesn't always translate to the NFL (see Dre K for comparison). Also think he plays soft, I hope Im wrong because we cant miss another 2nd round pick for the 2nd year in a row.

Don't know enough to comment on the rest of them but i do know the T from Kansas sounded intelligent as heck in his post draft interview.

[thompson19osu]

I just can’t help but take note of the contradicting scout reports. One says he lacks the grit and toughness, concerns about him being the big guy and yet another scout says he’s surehanded and will catch the 50-50 balls. I would think there has to be grit and toughness in order to catch the 50-50 balls. Again he tied record for TDs at Clemson with Watkins and Hopkins. He is going to be just fine. Yes it may take some time to learn how to be press coverage but that can be learned.

[SunsetBengal]

Great read, thanks for sharing.

My biggest take from it, is that weather it's the top player in the draft or the last guy taken, there's always going to be talent evaluators who have opposing opinions of the same player.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Who’s the 5th scout that wouldn’t want Burrow as a high pick? I want a name!

But seriously, would said scout have taken Tua or Herbert at #1?

[Circleville Guy]

It sounds like Wilson isn’t too bight and Tree is basically illiterate. Does that cause any concerns? I’m guessing that getting through to the not too bright guys is an ongoing job. Maybe it’s not a big deal at all.???

[CJD]

(04-29-2020, 08:05 PM)corpjet Wrote: I had the same concerns about Tee Higgins, he was a man amongst boys in college and bullied his way to make the contested catch, don't think that will happen at the next level. Played with one of the nations best passers (T Lawrence aka Joe Dirt) and one of the best teams in the country which doesn't always translate to the NFL (see Dre K for comparison).   Also think he plays soft, I hope Im wrong because we cant miss another 2nd round pick for the 2nd year in a row.

Don't know enough to comment on the rest of them but i do know the T from Kansas sounded intelligent as heck in his post draft interview.

I think the notable bit is that he was still the top rated WR on the board according to the rankings and his draft range is right where we took him

If he was legitimately unable to get separation, no way they'd collectively rank him as a fringe first round prospect. As with many draft profiles, you need to find some weaknesses, even if they're minor or exaggerated in the report. 

When I watch him on film I see him separating pretty consistently, as well as running away from CBs and safeties. His workout numbers are a shame and he could stand to be a little more athletic (who couldn't? ) but he's got #1 WR talent. I'm not sure he'll ever be a super star all pro type, but he could easily be a 1000 yard receiver in the NFL. And how much more can you ask from a 2nd round pick? 

I just love that he'll be paired up with the best back shoulder thrower in college last year and will learn from his idol, Green. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-29-2020, 10:42 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: It sounds like Wilson isn’t too bight and Tree is basically illiterate. Does that cause any concerns? I’m guessing that getting through to the not too bright guys is an ongoing job. Maybe it’s not a big deal at all.???

Because of their Wonderlic scores? Dan Marino scored a 16. Tua scored a 13, and he just went top 5. And those are QB’s who have to be extremely cerebral...

I mean, I’d rather our players have high scores than low ones (Burrow for example), but it’s not really a big deal.

[CJD]

Oh, there's also apparently an overview article he wrote before the series (maybe the Athletic asked him to do the whole series after this article's success or something?)

And there's some more snippets that I think people may like:

Quote:Joe Burrow, LSU (6-3 1/2, 221): He threw for a record 60 touchdowns after firing just 16 touchdown passes in 2018, his first season at LSU after three of backup duty at Ohio State. “The one-year wonder does worry you a little bit but he’s put so much good stuff on tape,” one scout said. “His last four or five games, that’s as good as any quarterback has played in a long time. Now, he had a great supporting cast. I get that. But, man, he was dialing it up. Just average physical tools. He’s not going to amaze you with his arm strength. He’s a good athlete but he’s not a great athlete. He’s not impressive, but it all came together. You love the makeup. He’s a coach’s son, and his understated swagger kind of as opposed to the overstated swagger of Baker (Mayfield).” He dominated voting for the Heisman Trophy and elected not to run or throw at the combine. “The interesting thing about him, when you look at his face, he reminds me of Peyton Manning,” another scout said. “You look into his eyes and see the determination. He’s a much better athlete than Manning. He can run, too. I estimated 4.7 (seconds in the 40). Peyton was more of a statue. The arm strength is about the same … and being resourceful and making excellent decisions. The composure, the confidence, the mental toughness. He’s special.”

Quote:Tee Higgins, Clemson (6-3 1/2, 216): He elected not to work at the combine but did test Thursday at Clemson’s pro day. “He’s got great size, he’s exceptionally athletic, his ball skills are top-notch and he’s a really good route runner,” said one scout. He caught 135 passes, averaged 18.1 yards per catch and had 27 touchdown receptions. “He wasn’t the best receiver at Clemson,” another scout said. “The sophomore, Justyn Ross, was. When they needed a big play, they went to Ross. Physical receiver, excellent strength, body control and hands. I question his top speed and explosion. Reminds me of Mike Williams, who San Diego drafted in the first round (in 2017). He’s more of a strong, possession-type guy than a top speed guy. I’d estimate he’s 4.55.”

Also, I think this may interest some people who are concerned about Higgins (or who may have preferred Mims).

Quote:Denzel Mims, Baylor (6-3, 207): A three-year starter with 28 touchdowns. “I would have thought no way in the world just watching him on tape and now he’s top 50,” one scout said. “He’s a big guy and ran fast. You see he’s got savvy, hands, good route runner. Kind of a limited route tree at Baylor. Just kind of a catch-and-get-tackled guy. You didn’t see the deep speed.” Had a big week at the Senior Bowl, especially in the red zone, and then ran 4.38 seconds in the 40. His arms measured 33 7/8 inches. “He has strength and hands but I don’t think he’s anything special,” another scout said. “In the Big 12 Championship Game, Parnell Motley (of Oklahoma) totally shut him down and he’s a late-round pick. He’s a guy that makes the possession catches.”

So these reports are pretty negative about a lot of players hahaha.

https://theathletic.com/1665631/2020/03/17/mcginn-scouts-size-up-their-top-prospects-on-offense/

[Circleville Guy]

(04-29-2020, 10:47 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Because of their Wonderlic scores? Dan Marino scored a 16. Tua scored a 13, and he just went top 5. And those are QB’s who have to be extremely cerebral...

I mean, I’d rather our players have high scores than low ones (Burrow for example), but it’s not really a big deal.

I guess it doesn’t matter. 10 is considered illiterate though, just saying. I did just look it up and Vince Young scored a 6 while Fitz scored a 48. I guess that I was just thinking of ability to learn but I’m probably making more of it than what it is.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-29-2020, 10:54 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I guess it doesn’t matter. 10 is considered illiterate though, just saying. I did just look it up and Vince Young scored a 6 while Fitz scored a 48. I guess that I was just thinking of ability to learn but I’m probably making more of it than what it is.

Frank Gore scored a 6, and he’s probably going to the HOF.

[offside]

According to Richard Sherman, most players don't take the wonderlic test seriously.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/04/nfl-draft-richard-sherman-wonderlic-test

[SunsetBengal]

(04-29-2020, 10:42 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: It sounds like Wilson isn’t too bight and Tree is basically illiterate. Does that cause any concerns? I’m guessing that getting through to the not too bright guys is an ongoing job. Maybe it’s not a big deal at all.???

Well Ryan Finley scored a 43, and we saw how well his brain processed under pressure, last season..

[lone bengal]

Great post very interesting to read about scouts with such varying opinions. As far as Higgins goes I never saw him being brought in as a speed guy but more as an A.J. Green replacement/ clone not saying he would be as good. Boyd dosen't have great speed he's more of slot possession guy who runs great routes and has great hands, he reminds me of a slimmer Keenan Allen. Don't kill me lol but I still haven't given up on John Ross just yet even tho he frustrates me. If Green dosen't get extend after this year going forward we would have Boyd, Higgins and guys like Tate and Erickson and would be lacking a speed WR over the top. Ross has flashed some big plays when he's healthy like the Seattle game and others. I wouldn't mind picking up his fifth year option if he played well in 2020 and see if he had a future here or to maybe get signed to a reasonable contract with , Higgns playing on a rookie deal and with Boyd on a good contract.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-29-2020, 11:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well Ryan Finley scored a 43, and we saw how well his brain processed under pressure, last season..

Was it his brain, or his arm that was the problem...

[Circleville Guy]

(04-29-2020, 10:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Frank Gore scored a 6, and he’s probably going to the HOF.

I guess we’ve proven that you don’t have to test well to play well. I’m sure that coaches apply different methods of teaching to certain players.

[Circleville Guy]

(04-29-2020, 11:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well Ryan Finley scored a 43, and we saw how well his brain processed under pressure, last season..

I know that a big brain doesn’t equal great play. I was just curious about the percentage of illiterate players that are successful. Obviously there’s gonna be examples of success but is it an uphill battle?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-30-2020, 12:40 AM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I know that a big brain doesn’t equal great play. I was just curious about the percentage of illiterate players that are successful. Obviously there’s gonna be examples of success but is it an uphill battle?

These guys are not “illiterate” just because they’re not good at math or problem solving...

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-29-2020, 10:43 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think the notable bit is that he was still the top rated WR on the board according to the rankings and his draft range is right where we took him

If he was legitimately unable to get separation, no way they'd collectively rank him as a fringe first round prospect. As with many draft profiles, you need to find some weaknesses, even if they're minor or exaggerated in the report. 

When I watch him on film I see him separating pretty consistently, as well as running away from CBs and safeties. His workout numbers are a shame and he could stand to be a little more athletic (who couldn't? ) but he's got #1 WR talent. I'm not sure he'll ever be a super star all pro type, but he could easily be a 1000 yard receiver in the NFL. And how much more can you ask from a 2nd round pick? 

I just love that he'll be paired up with the best back shoulder thrower in college last year and will learn from his idol, Green. 

When I was talking myself out of him before the draft, I was using the physicality of Okudah punishing him off the LOS at Ohio State.  That, his forty time, and his lack of an even decent vertical.  

When I started talking myself in to him was when I realized he had been in the National Championship game against Alabama, and won in 2018.  He had 3 receptions for 81 yards and a TD as a true Sophomore.  That is the other thing:  He is just 21 years old.  What you said about his back shoulder ability is my final thought as well:  He tracks the deep ball as well as anyone I have ever seen.  That isn't as easy as it sounds.  Someone with a bouncy gait, whether fast or not, has trouble focusing on the ball as their eyes are bounding up and down as it approaches.  Higgins may not be a burner, but he is smooth and he has sure hands.  

I think if Higgins had not been in the Championship game the past two seasons, or the playoff for that matter, he could have had time to rest, heal, train, and have a much better combine/pro day.  

When I think of what he can do here, I think a lot of AJ drawing safeties to his side of the field and Higgins having a lot of big plays down the field.  Contested or not, I think there aren't many CBs that are going to beat him on balls in the air.  

And, he is a Bengals fan.  

[*SHRacerX*]

Regarding Logan Wilson's numbers:

52 games, finishing with 421 tackles (35 for loss), seven sacks, 10 interceptions and 24 passes defensed.

Those are some silly numbers. When you consider how he played WR and CB in high school, it starts to make a little sense. Not that he didn't test well at the combine (he did), but the Bengals have so many times gone with the superior athlete that looks absolutely lost on the field when asked to diagnose. He almost seems like an anti-Bengal choice at LB. Of all the picks outside of Burrow, he excites me the most. I think that guy will get on the field and never come off. He will be the every-down LB that the Bengals have needed for some time.