Bobby Hart under pressure

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-28-2020, 03:42 AM)samhain Wrote: So what?  How is learning about a thing that happened teaching anyone to be anything?  I've been taught about comparative religion, various political movements, and lifestyles that aren't mine.  I played flag football at a Baptist church when I was Catholic, and continued to be Catholic.  None of them made me anything other than what I am.  

I hate to break it to people, but if you're kid is gay, it aint because he/she read a book about LGBTQ history.  It's because, wait for it: they are gay and always have been.  

You either are or you aren't regardless of what you consume in terms of information.  All withholding said information does is repress and shame, creating more issues.  

One of my best friends is as right wing as they come.  Wears MAGA hats and goes to the local megachurch.  He brags about loving his 50 guns all the same.  We go to Fat Tuesday dinner with his family every year here at a local cajun place.  One year, he brought his teenage son.  Guess what?  He's flaming, outspokenly, in-your-face, no doubt gay.  He did not learn that from his dad or anything he was taught in school.  It's just who he is and who he's always been, and no amount of conditioning would have changed that.

Why explain it to me? I didn't say I was against it. Just pointing out how people might try to tie it to the message Bobby Hart put out there. There is also several states that have "no pro *****" laws. While that might be stupid. There is still a ways to go to get those laws changed.

I don't buy the "born that way" propganda. So far science can't prove people were born that way. 

If it was so, then how can 1 identical twin be gay and the other strait? They share the same genetic code, so if one is, the other should be as well.

I believe everyone has limits to how much stress/trauma they can handle. And when that limit is reached, a new behavior pattern emerges. At birth, we are all blank slates, its our experiences that shape us. 

And you can't tell me that scientists can't figure it out, cause they can tell who is a higher risk for many different things (diseases, disorders etc) from a person's genetic code, so if there was a distinct pattern, they would've found it by now. 

Now before you jump all over me. I'm not saying its a bad thing or that they are bad people or broken in any way. Just how I see it, just like you see it as "born that way". And I dont put anyone down because of their lifestyle choices. I respect everyone, but their lifestyle isn't for me. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-27-2020, 12:00 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Your body doesn’t have an immune system?  You don’t have intact skin preventing portals of entry to bacteria? You don’t have protective bacteria flora preventing overgrowth of opportunistic pathogens?  You don’t have mucous production from mucous membranes or cilliary movement to rid the body of pathogens? You don’t have bacteria in your gut?

Great an expert.

Answer this.
2 guys have aids.
1 has sex with another guy, the other has sex with a woman. Safe sex is not used with either. 

Which person has a lower chance of not getting Aids and why?

[fredtoast]

(06-28-2020, 09:20 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why explain it to me? I didn't say I was against it. Just pointing out how people might try to tie it to the message Bobby Hart put out there. There is also several states that have "no pro *****" laws. While that might be stupid. There is still a ways to go to get those laws changed.

I don't buy the "born that way" propganda. So far science can't prove people were born that way. 

If it was so, then how can 1 identical twin be gay and the other strait? They share the same genetic code, so if one is, the other should be as well.

I believe everyone has limits to how much stress/trauma they can handle. And when that limit is reached, a new behavior pattern emerges. At birth, we are all blank slates, its our experiences that shape us. 

And you can't tell me that scientists can't figure it out, cause they can tell who is a higher risk for many different things (diseases, disorders etc) from a person's genetic code, so if there was a distinct pattern, they would've found it by now. 

Now before you jump all over me. I'm not saying its a bad thing or that they are bad people or broken in any way. Just how I see it, just like you see it as "born that way". And I dont put anyone down because of their lifestyle choices. I respect everyone, but their lifestyle isn't for me. 

So what happened in your life that made you heterosexual?

What event or influence made you attracted to women instead of men?

[*Nately120*]

(06-28-2020, 09:20 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Now before you jump all over me. I'm not saying its a bad thing or that they are bad people or broken in any way. Just how I see it, just like you see it as "born that way". And I dont put anyone down because of their lifestyle choices. I respect everyone, but their lifestyle isn't for me. 

Fair enough, but if you take this paragraph in itself it sounds like you're referring to someone who is really into a band you don't care for, or something along those lines.  I will say that regardless of how you perceive the cause it is my agreed upon rule that you just play it safe and let 'em be free to do as they wish.  That's my mantra, so I dig it.


But really, I don't think the Grateful Dead are bad, but people who are really into them...not my thing, but to each his own you know?

[GMDino]

(06-28-2020, 09:20 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why explain it to me? I didn't say I was against it. Just pointing out how people might try to tie it to the message Bobby Hart put out there. There is also several states that have "no pro *****" laws. While that might be stupid. There is still a ways to go to get those laws changed.

I don't buy the "born that way" propganda. So far science can't prove people were born that way. 

If it was so, then how can 1 identical twin be gay and the other strait? They share the same genetic code, so if one is, the other should be as well.

I believe everyone has limits to how much stress/trauma they can handle. And when that limit is reached, a new behavior pattern emerges. At birth, we are all blank slates, its our experiences that shape us. 

And you can't tell me that scientists can't figure it out, cause they can tell who is a higher risk for many different things (diseases, disorders etc) from a person's genetic code, so if there was a distinct pattern, they would've found it by now. 

Now before you jump all over me. I'm not saying its a bad thing or that they are bad people or broken in any way. Just how I see it, just like you see it as "born that way". And I dont put anyone down because of their lifestyle choices. I respect everyone, but their lifestyle isn't for me. 

If you believe 100% it is nurture over nature are you saying 100% that it is the straight parents to blame?  How do gay parents raise straight children? What kind of "trauma" makes one person gay but not another?


I don't know how many homosexuals you are acquainted with but I knew more than a few.  They were always gay.  Oh,a couple tried to act straight.  One got married and had kids.  But they always knew and they always came out in the end.

But to digress to "science can't prove" that might be one of the silliest arguments about it.  We live in a world where half the people want to dismiss science about the environment and viruses but demand that science show them that gay people are born that way or else that means there is something mentally weak/wrong with them.

If it isn't "bad" and "isn't for you" that's wonderful.  But "how you see it" is a dangerous belief in the hands of someone not as open to letting people lead their own lives.

[Lucidus]

(06-28-2020, 09:20 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why explain it to me? I didn't say I was against it. Just pointing out how people might try to tie it to the message Bobby Hart put out there. There is also several states that have "no pro *****" laws. While that might be stupid. There is still a ways to go to get those laws changed.

I don't buy the "born that way" propganda. So far science can't prove people were born that way. 

If it was so, then how can 1 identical twin be gay and the other strait? They share the same genetic code, so if one is, the other should be as well.

I believe everyone has limits to how much stress/trauma they can handle. And when that limit is reached, a new behavior pattern emerges. At birth, we are all blank slates, its our experiences that shape us. 

And you can't tell me that scientists can't figure it out, cause they can tell who is a higher risk for many different things (diseases, disorders etc) from a person's genetic code, so if there was a distinct pattern, they would've found it by now. 

Now before you jump all over me. I'm not saying its a bad thing or that they are bad people or broken in any way. Just how I see it, just like you see it as "born that way". And I dont put anyone down because of their lifestyle choices. I respect everyone, but their lifestyle isn't for me. 

When you inquire as to how one twin could be gay and one straight, it feels as though that's as far as you've ventured into your query. It honestly feels like you've not seriously considered the question at all because you feel the question itself serves as an answer. 

Let's explore your question though, by asking a few more questions. How is it that one twin is very athletic and the other one is not? How can it be that one twin has a great sense of humor while the other does not? How can it be that one twin learns very quickly while the other does not? How can it be that one twin is sexually attracted to one type, while the other is attracted to a different type, even if both are heterosexual?

The answer, in my opinion, is two-fold. I believe that some homosexuals are indeed "born that way" while others prefer to be that way. For example, I have always been attracted to guys. At no point in my life has that not been the case. From my earliest memories of sexual attraction, females were never part of the equation. I have a friend who's experience was very different. At one point, he was very much attracted to females. However, over time, his desires and preferences would change to the point where he began to be much more attracted to men. 

Ask yourself this; why are you heterosexual? Did you decide to be that way? Did you suffer trauma that forced you to be that way? Did you become a heterosexual due to societal pressures? Or perhaps, is it just the way that you've always been or evolved to be? 

Being heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual, asexual, or whatever the case may be, is not a pattern of behavior; it's the natural product of your personal, internal preferences and desires. If you, as a heterosexual, prefer one type of woman over another, is that a "pattern of behavior" on your part, or is it simply what you're attracted to; something that you can't help or change? 

[*bfine32*]

(06-28-2020, 11:45 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So what happened in your life that made you heterosexual?

What event or influence made you attracted to women instead of men?

uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............first boobies then vaginas. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-28-2020, 09:20 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why explain it to me? I didn't say I was against it. Just pointing out how people might try to tie it to the message Bobby Hart put out there. There is also several states that have "no pro *****" laws. While that might be stupid. There is still a ways to go to get those laws changed.

I don't buy the "born that way" propganda. So far science can't prove people were born that way. 

If it was so, then how can 1 identical twin be gay and the other strait? They share the same genetic code, so if one is, the other should be as well.

I believe everyone has limits to how much stress/trauma they can handle. And when that limit is reached, a new behavior pattern emerges. At birth, we are all blank slates, its our experiences that shape us. 

And you can't tell me that scientists can't figure it out, cause they can tell who is a higher risk for many different things (diseases, disorders etc) from a person's genetic code, so if there was a distinct pattern, they would've found it by now. 

Now before you jump all over me. I'm not saying its a bad thing or that they are bad people or broken in any way. Just how I see it, just like you see it as "born that way". And I dont put anyone down because of their lifestyle choices. I respect everyone, but their lifestyle isn't for me. 

There is a difference between genotype and phenotype. The majority of your genotype isn’t expressed as a phenotype. So just because the genotype is the same the phenotype can be different.

Nature vs. nurture is still an ongoing scientific debate which hasn’t been settled conclusively one way or the other.

[fredtoast]

(06-28-2020, 02:13 PM)Lucidus Wrote: The answer, in my opinion, is two-fold. I believe that some homosexuals are indeed "born that way" while others prefer to be that way. For example, I have always been attracted to guys. At no point in my life has that not been the case. From my earliest memories of sexual attraction, females were never part of the equation. I have a friend that who's experience was very different. At one point, he was very much attracted to females. However, over time, his desires and preferences would change to the point where he began to be much more attracted to men. 

I have always been straight.  I don't want to pretend to speak for homosexuals or bi-sexuals.  But I believe there is a continuum of sexual preferences that covers all sots of different choices..  

I had a female friend who was straight for years, then decided she was a lesbian, last time I saw her she was sleeping with guys again, but I don't think she has any strict lines anymore.

My ex-wife was bi-sexual and when we first started dating she talked about bringing other women to bed with us.  It never happened, and after we decided to get married it was no longer an option.  She dated other men after we divorced, but now she has a female "best friend" that she spends all her time with.

I know I never made a choice to be straight, and I know I could not get sexually aroused thinking about sex with a man even if I wanted to try it.  So I assume most other people are also born with a sexual preference somewhere along the continuum, and people who seem to "change their mind" are actually just somewhere in the middle to begin with.

[Lucidus]

(06-28-2020, 02:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have always been straight.  I don't want to pretend to speak for homosexuals or bi-sexuals.  But I believe there is a continuum of sexual preferences that covers all sots of different choices..  

I had a female friend who was straight for years, then decided she was a lesbian, last time I saw her she was sleeping with guys again, but I don't think she has any strict lines anymore.

My ex-wife was bi-sexual and when we first started dating she talked about bringing other women to bed with us.  It never happened, and after we decided to get married it was no longer an option.  She dated other men after we divorced, but now she has a female "best friend" that she spends all her time with.

I know I never made a choice to be straight, and I know I could not get sexually aroused thinking about sex with a man even if I wanted to try it.  So I assume most other people are also born with a sexual preference somewhere along the continuum, and people who seem to "change their mind" are actually just somewhere in the middle to begin with.

While I don't entirely disagree, I will say that I believe there are cases where a person's desires / preferences do indeed change over time, just as any tastes / preferences / desires can change, evolve or become very different during the course of our lives. 

I do feel, more often than not, who we are attracted to is something that is innate within us; a baseline, primal desire if you will. As I stated, I have always been attracted to males, just as you have always been attracted to females. We have both followed our natural instincts when it comes to our desires, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that another may experience a change or evolution of their desires that may lead them to a different set of preferences and attractions.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-28-2020, 09:35 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Great an expert.

Answer this.
2 guys have aids.
1 has sex with another guy, the other has sex with a woman. Safe sex is not used with either. 

Which person has a lower chance of not getting Aids and why?

You’re asking about the risk of contracting HIV. Developing AIDs as a result of contracting HIV depends on many factors other than sexual orientation with quality of medical care being the most important factor in delaying or preventing the onset of AIDs after HIV infection.

This risk of contracting HIV depends upon the type of sex. Receptive anal intercourse would carry the same risk of contracting HIV for a man or a woman receiving anal sex from a HIV positive man.

The risk of contracting HIV via vaginal intercourse is less than receptive anal intercourse with a HIV positive male because their is a greater chance of mucosal tearing and bleeding during receptive anal intercourse providing a greater portal of entry to the cardiovascular system.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-28-2020, 03:17 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You’re asking about the risk of contracting HIV. Developing AIDs as a result of contracting HIV depends on many factors other than sexual orientation with quality of medical care being the most important factor in delaying or preventing the onset of AIDs after HIV infection.  

This risk of contracting HIV depends upon the type of sex. Receptive anal intercourse would carry the same risk of contracting HIV for a man or a woman receiving anal sex from a HIV positive man.

The risk of contracting HIV via vaginal intercourse is less than receptive anal intercourse with a HIV positive male because their is a greater chance of mucosal tearing and bleeding during receptive anal intercourse providing a greater portal of entry to the cardiovascular system.

Did you conveniently leave out the part where the Vagina is colonized by bacteria that gives a woman an extra layer or protection from STDs that is not present in the anus?

As I said before. Two guys can do what they want, but use protection. HIV is no joke. For a population that makes up such a small % overall, don't you think its a bit out of proportion that 2/3 of new annual cases of HIV are from gay men? 

Again, stay smart and use protection. That is my only beef about homosexuality. And honestly everyone should use protection no matter the type of intercourse you have. I do and I am STD free, always have been.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-28-2020, 11:45 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So what happened in your life that made you heterosexual?

What event or influence made you attracted to women instead of men?

life happened. 

I think it happens on more of a subconscious level based on an accumulation of your personal experiences up to that point. Once your done internalizing a choice is made. 

I had early childhood experiences (before 10). My parents divorced and it was an hour drive long drive for my dad to pick me up every other weekend. About half way between the 2 cities there was a titty bar. I always fell asleep in the car and my dad would stop and go in for a couple hours. When I woke up, I'd get out and go look for him. Ofc I ended up inside and the girls were always fawning over a cut little boy looking for his dad. They were usually top less and wearing skimpy outfits. At that age I did not know what sex was nor had an attraction to either sex. So seeing the women like that could have had 2 outcomes. 

1) make me curious about women or
2) could have turned me completely off from being over exposed at such a young age. 

Turns out I internalized and chose 1.

As has been pointed out, one guy started off straight and then based on life experiences his desires changed. Which does prove the point that the brain is fluid and can handle only so much before something causes a change in a person's behavior. 

I think some of you might be misunderstanding my use of trauma. I'm not saying it was extremely serious trauma, everyone handles stress differently. 

You have your way of seeing it and I have mine. So far neither is really wrong, but they are right for the way our personal experiences have unfolded. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-28-2020, 04:22 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Did you conveniently leave out the part where the Vagina is colonized by bacteria that gives a woman an extra layer or protection from STDs that is not present in the anus?

As I said before. Two guys can do what they want, but use protection. HIV is no joke. For a population that makes up such a small % overall, don't you think its a bit out of proportion that 2/3 of new annual cases of HIV are from gay men? 

Again, stay smart and use protection. That is my only beef about homosexuality. And honestly everyone should use protection no matter the type of intercourse you have. I do and I am STD free, always have been.

You started this tangent with . . .

(06-26-2020, 10:54 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I dont have an issue with teaching anything in school as long as its in a neutral setting. 

Opposition to sexuality is not just a religious thing. 

I dont oppose it, but I do if its not being done safely. Because the body itself has no natural protections against getting diseases. 

And now you’re claiming the body has natural protections against getting disease.

Well, first, Lactobacillus is a component of vaginal and gut flora.

Second, show me a comparative study showing vaginal flora is more protective than gut flora to prevent STDs.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-28-2020, 02:13 PM)Lucidus Wrote: When you inquire as to how one twin could be gay and one straight, it feels as though that's as far as you've ventured into your query. It honestly feels like you've not seriously considered the question at all because you feel the question itself serves as an answer. 

Let's explore your question though, by asking a few more questions. How is it that one twin is very athletic and the other one is not? How can it be that one twin has a great sense of humor while the other does not? How can it be that one twin learns very quickly while the other does not? How can it be that one twin is sexually attracted to one type, while the other is attracted to a different type, even if both are heterosexual?

The answer, in my opinion, is two-fold. I believe that some homosexuals are indeed "born that way" while others prefer to be that way. For example, I have always been attracted to guys. At no point in my life has that not been the case. From my earliest memories of sexual attraction, females were never part of the equation. I have a friend who's experience was very different. At one point, he was very much attracted to females. However, over time, his desires and preferences would change to the point where he began to be much more attracted to men. 

Ask yourself this; why are you heterosexual? Did you decide to be that way? Did you suffer trauma that forced you to be that way? Did you become a heterosexual due to societal pressures? Or perhaps, is it just the way that you've always been or evolved to be? 

Being heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual, asexual, or whatever the case may be, is not a pattern of behavior; it's the natural product of your personal, internal preferences and desires. If you, as a heterosexual, prefer one type of woman over another, is that a "pattern of behavior" on your part, or is it simply what you're attracted to; something that you can't help or change? 

As far as the twins go. 

Personalities are developed in the brain differently. 
Athletics is a physical attribute, both will have the same muscle fiber.

Look at Robin and Brook Lopez from the NBA, both identical twins and play the Center position. But both play it differently. One is more defensive and the other more offensive. If you ask why? They will tell you they developed their skills that way to complement each other so they could both be on the court at the same time growing up. That was a choice they made while developing their skills.

In other instances one might choose to be a bookworm while the other chooses athletics. And then they develop their choice based on their personal and individual experiences. 

Everything can be the same, look the same etc, but the brain is unique in everyone. People react differently under the same circumstances. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-28-2020, 05:34 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You started this tangent with . . .


And now you’re claiming the body has natural protections against getting disease.

Well, first, Lactobacillus is a component of vaginal and gut flora.

Second, show me a comparative study showing vaginal flora is more protective than gut flora to prevent STDs.

I was referring to homosexual sex. Not vaginal. 

But my mistake for not being clear enough.

[BmorePat87]

(06-28-2020, 09:20 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why explain it to me? I didn't say I was against it. Just pointing out how people might try to tie it to the message Bobby Hart put out there. There is also several states that have "no pro *****" laws. While that might be stupid. There is still a ways to go to get those laws changed.

I don't buy the "born that way" propganda. So far science can't prove people were born that way. 

If it was so, then how can 1 identical twin be gay and the other strait? They share the same genetic code, so if one is, the other should be as well.

I believe everyone has limits to how much stress/trauma they can handle. And when that limit is reached, a new behavior pattern emerges. At birth, we are all blank slates, its our experiences that shape us. 

And you can't tell me that scientists can't figure it out, cause they can tell who is a higher risk for many different things (diseases, disorders etc) from a person's genetic code, so if there was a distinct pattern, they would've found it by now. 

Now before you jump all over me. I'm not saying its a bad thing or that they are bad people or broken in any way. Just how I see it, just like you see it as "born that way". And I dont put anyone down because of their lifestyle choices. I respect everyone, but their lifestyle isn't for me. 

Science doesn’t always “prove” things, but science has shown that sexual orientation is likely the result of various genetic factors as well as environmental factors. Like most things, we’re a combination of genetic predisposition and different stressors and experiences and can cause those genetic predispositions to manifest a certain way.

Identical twins also do not necessarily have their DNA code expressed the same way due to epigenetic factors

http://gap.med.miami.edu/learn-about-genetics/have-questions-about-genetics/are-identical-twins-100-genetically-identical

“While the two babies share the same DNA code, there is more to our genetics than just that. During development in the womb and after birth, our surroundings, exposures, and nutrition influence how our genes are expressed and how our bodies and minds develop. For example, two identical twins may have the same genes for height, but if one twin does not receive the same amount of nutrients while in the womb, it may be shorter than the other twin. We know also, that there are some changes to our genes that can happen during the embryonic period or during development. While this rarely happens, it makes it so that one identical twin may have a genetic condition, while the other twin does not. Our genetic code is a very large part of our genetic makeup, but there are other factors, genetic and environmental, that make us unique!”

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-28-2020, 12:30 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Fair enough, but if you take this paragraph in itself it sounds like you're referring to someone who is really into a band you don't care for, or something along those lines.  I will say that regardless of how you perceive the cause it is my agreed upon rule that you just play it safe and let 'em be free to do as they wish.  That's my mantra, so I dig it.


But really, I don't think the Grateful Dead are bad, but people who are really into them...not my thing, but to each his own you know?

Not a fan of GD, but I did experience them in my youth. Now Aerosmith..... thats a different beast and a great time for me!

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-28-2020, 06:20 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I was referring to homosexual sex. Not vaginal. 

But my mistake for not being clear enough.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/research/advancements-in-research/fundamentals/in-depth/the-gut-where-bacteria-and-immune-system-meet

And your gut is a huge part of your immune system.

And there’s this . . .

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2929353/

Quote: No significant differences in per-act URAI estimates between heterosexual couples and MSM were found

Meaning the researchers didn’t find a difference in the risk of contracting HIV via unprotected receptive anal intercourse (URAI) between heterosexual couples and men who have sex with men (MSM).

[fredtoast]

(06-28-2020, 02:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............first boobies then vaginas. 

So if you had seen a penis before you saw a vagina you would be gay instead of straight?