Bond slashed to 175 million while Trump appeals

[Belsnickel]

(04-08-2024, 06:42 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Define Woman.

An adult individual who relates to feminine societal norms and behaviors and lives their lives identifying as such.

[*Nately120*]

(04-08-2024, 06:42 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Define Woman.

A human being that uses the ladies room.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-08-2024, 08:09 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: An adult individual who relates to feminine societal norms and behaviors and lives their lives identifying as such.

No that's the Liberal changing definition. 

In Humans there is an xx and xy chromosome that distinguishes whether you are classified as a Male or Female along with the respective reproductive parts.

There is no such thing as a third option. Doc doesn't say, I dunno wtf this one is. He either says Boy or Girl cause that's the only 2 known species of Humans known to man.

And i'm just gonna put a stop to the next step in the argument now. 
But not all people can reproduce.

Doesn't matter, not all people have 5 toes on each foot either. It's called deformatory, they are still associated as either xx or xy. Change all the mental and physical parts you want, but bottom line is your chromosomes dictate which sex you are.

Have at it though, i know many of you will disagree, but what i said is straight up truth, it's non-disputable.


So again, why does one groups rights override another? Why can't straight men go into the Ladies room without getting the cops called on them?

[Belsnickel]

(04-08-2024, 09:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: No that's the Liberal changing definition. 

The English language is constantly evolving and what I expressed was a definition of woman based on how we look at it in the sciences.

(04-08-2024, 09:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: In Humans there is an xx and xy chromosome that distinguishes whether you are classified as a Male or Female along with the respective reproductive parts.

Male or female is generally accepted to be in reference to biological sex whereas man and woman tend to relate to gender, which is a social/cultural construct. Two different things.

(04-08-2024, 09:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: There is no such thing as a third option. Doc doesn't say, I dunno wtf this one is. He either says Boy or Girl cause that's the only 2 known species of Humans known to man.

First, male and female aren't different species. Second, there is a third option, and potentially more. Intersex is a real thing. There are also different chromosomal variations that cause differences. But again, that is biological sex, not gender.

(04-08-2024, 09:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And i'm just gonna put a stop to the next step in the argument now. 
But not all people can reproduce.

I wasn't even going in that direction because we are talking about gender, not sex.

(04-08-2024, 09:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Doesn't matter, not all people have 5 toes on each foot either. It's called deformatory, they are still associated as either xx or xy. Change all the mental and physical parts you want, but bottom line is your chromosomes dictate which sex you are.

Well, no, actually. There are people that have been assigned male or female at birth and have chromosomes that do not match that. There are, again, also intersex individuals.

(04-08-2024, 09:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Have at it though, i know many of you will disagree, but what i said is straight up truth, it's non-disputable.

It is disputable because you're just flat out wrong. There isn't any other way to say it.

(04-08-2024, 09:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: So again, why does one groups rights override another? Why can't straight men go into the Ladies room without getting the cops called on them?

One group's rights do not override another, and straight men can't go into the ladies room because they are men, not women, and that include a straight trans man. Thank you for agreeing.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-08-2024, 09:28 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The English language is constantly evolving and what I expressed was a definition of woman based on how we look at it in the sciences.

Science is great, except when it doesn't match what you want.

(04-08-2024, 09:28 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Male or female is generally accepted to be in reference to biological sex whereas man and woman tend to relate to gender, which is a social/cultural construct. Two different things.

Sorry, just cause you can say you are a "...." doesn't make you one.
There are plenty of men with effeminate qualities, that doesn't make them a woman and vice versa

(04-08-2024, 09:28 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: First, male and female aren't different species. Second, there is a third option, and potentially more. Intersex is a real thing. There are also different chromosomal variations that cause differences. But again, that is biological sex, not gender.

No they aren't species, they are classes, the Human Species has only 2, male and female. Sorry if I wasn't clear the first tiime.
So you are telling me that every trans woman/man is born with xxy chromosomes? Unless you have proof that they are, i'm just not buying that at all. 

(04-08-2024, 09:28 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, no, actually. There are people that have been assigned male or female at birth and have chromosomes that do not match that. There are, again, also intersex individuals.

I'd like to know how many, are born this way. Can you provide that? Neither of your links tell us "how many" just talks about the rare find.

(04-08-2024, 09:28 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: One group's rights do not override another, and straight men can't go into the ladies room because they are men, not women, and that include a straight trans man. Thank you for agreeing.

Right biological men can't go into the bathroom because they are biological men and not biological women,

[Belsnickel]

(04-08-2024, 10:55 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Science is great, except when it doesn't match what you want.

Agreed. Which is why it is funny how hard you are arguing against the scientific consensus.

(04-08-2024, 10:55 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Sorry, just cause you can say you are a "...." doesn't make you one.
There are plenty of men with effeminate qualities, that doesn't make them a woman and vice versa

Agreed. And that is not what anyone is saying. Being transgender is more than that.

(04-08-2024, 10:55 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: No they aren't species, they are classes, the Human Species has only 2, male and female. Sorry if I wasn't clear the first tiime.

Class? That's just a little better than before. It's called "sex," and there is evidence there are more than two.

(04-08-2024, 10:55 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: So you are telling me that every trans woman/man is born with xxy chromosomes? Unless you have proof that they are, i'm just not buying that at all. 

Nope; not saying that at all. You are stuck on sex whereas gender is a different construct.

(04-08-2024, 10:55 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I'd like to know how many, are born this way. Can you provide that? Neither of your links tell us "how many" just talks about the rare find.

Frequency of the occurrence is not relevant to the discussion. The exact number is not known because many intersex individuals are assigned female or male at birth based on their dominant traits and may not ever learn of their genetic and/or physiological differences. I have seen estimates of anywhere from 1.5% to 3% of the population being born with intersex traits.

(04-08-2024, 10:55 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Right biological men can't go into the bathroom because they are biological men and not biological women,

You do understand that a trans man can be straight, right? Gender identity and sexual orientation are different things.

Also, you would like these men to go to the women's restroom?





and these women to go to the men's?







I don't know. I think that would make people pretty uncomfortable, to be honest.

[GMDino]

This thread has REALLY taken a hard swerve!

Question though, since we're here now, who the HELL is staring at everyone else in the bathroom to make sure they are the "right" person for that bathroom.

I've seen plenty of women in men's rooms over the years.  I've stood outside the door to make sure a guy didn't walk in too.  Now no one, none, zero, have ever told me "I'm actually trans" just to get in with the woman.  

Maybe I don't get out enough.

But anyway, I don't look at the other people in the bathroom much at all so I'm not sure who is in there with me.

[Belsnickel]

(04-09-2024, 08:45 AM)GMDino Wrote: This thread has REALLY taken a hard swerve!

Question though, since we're here now, who the HELL is staring at everyone else in the bathroom to make sure they are the "right" person for that bathroom.

I've seen plenty of women in men's rooms over the years.  I've stood outside the door to make sure a guy didn't walk in too.  Now no one, none, zero, have ever told me "I'm actually trans" just to get in with the woman.  

Maybe I don't get out enough.

But anyway, I don't look at the other people in the bathroom much at all so I'm not sure who is in there with me.

I'm right there with you. But yeah, definitely a hard turn. But that is what typically happens when people don't understand anti-discrimination laws and how individual rights and liberties work.

[*pally*]

They only care about transwomen, not transmen. It seems like the whole idea that a man would willingly amputate his penis is personally offensive to them. And the argument is always to "protect the women" Notice that for the most part the whole argument is driven by men

Unlike men's restrooms, every stall in a woman's restroom has doors. No one knows what genitalia anyone else possesses unless they are peeking under the door. I can guarantee you that most women don't care who the person in the stall next to them is as long as they flush the toilet

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 09:19 AM)pally Wrote: They only care about transwomen, not transmen. It seems like the whole idea that a man would willingly amputate his penis is personally offensive to them. And the argument is always to "protect the women"  Notice that for the most part the whole argument is driven by men

Unlike men's restrooms, every stall in a woman's restroom has doors.  No one knows what genitalia anyone else possesses unless they are peeking under the door.  I can guarantee you that most women don't care who the person in the stall next to them is as long as they flush the toilet

Just to clarify so I better understand your point. Who is they?

[Belsnickel]

(04-09-2024, 09:19 AM)pally Wrote: They only care about transwomen, not transmen. It seems like the whole idea that a man would willingly amputate his penis is personally offensive to them. And the argument is always to "protect the women" Notice that for the most part the whole argument is driven by men

Unlike men's restrooms, every stall in a woman's restroom has doors. No one knows what genitalia anyone else possesses unless they are peeking under the door. I can guarantee you that most women don't care who the person in the stall next to them is as long as they flush the toilet

And don't pee all over the seat.

[*Nately120*]

(04-09-2024, 08:45 AM)GMDino Wrote: This thread has REALLY taken a hard swerve!

Question though, since we're here now, who the HELL is staring at everyone else in the bathroom to make sure they are the "right" person for that bathroom.

I've seen plenty of women in men's rooms over the years.  I've stood outside the door to make sure a guy didn't walk in too.  Now no one, none, zero, have ever told me "I'm actually trans" just to get in with the woman.  

Maybe I don't get out enough.

But anyway, I don't look at the other people in the bathroom much at all so I'm not sure who is in there with me.

The whole bathroom issue is weird to me because I was under the impression that we as a society all just agreed to keep our heads down treat public restrooms like a completely odd but non sexual thing.  When you look at restrooms with that scrutiny you start to realize that as a "normal man" following the normal rules of polite society you have technically gone into a room with a closed door and no video monitoring and took out your penis, probably at some point while within a foot of an underaged boy to which you had no relation who also had his penis out.

All I know about this is that the more you actually think and talk about genitals and restrooms the weirder it gets. It's just interesting to think that every dude who is all about "bathroom security and safety" has at some point in his life without thinking about it had his sexual organs exposed next to a kid who also had his sexual organs exposed but it was all good because when you are at a urinal you just sort of look at the wall in front of your and pretend it's the most fascinating thing you've seen all day.

Applying sexual context to public restrooms just makes us all look like weirdos. Oy, I won't even get into how old school places like Wrigley Field still have the huge piss troughs and apparently taking out your junk with a bunch of dudes in full view magically becomes the least gay thing ever.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-09-2024, 07:26 AM)Belsnick Wrote: Agreed. Which is why it is funny how hard you are arguing against the scientific consensus.


Agreed. And that is not what anyone is saying. Being transgender is more than that.


Class? That's just a little better than before. It's called "sex," and there is evidence there are more than two.


Nope; not saying that at all. You are stuck on sex whereas gender is a different construct.


Frequency of the occurrence is not relevant to the discussion. The exact number is not known because many intersex individuals are assigned female or male at birth based on their dominant traits and may not ever learn of their genetic and/or physiological differences. I have seen estimates of anywhere from 1.5% to 3% of the population being born with intersex traits.


You do understand that a trans man can be straight, right? Gender identity and sexual orientation are different things.

Also, you would like these men to go to the women's restroom?

I don't know. I think that would make people pretty uncomfortable, to be honest.

On the science side, since it's definitely not the norm for people to have xxy chromosomes, Polydactylism is more common than that, and it's classified as a deformation. It doesn't make them a lesser person, just different and that's something they will have to deal with their whole lives. Sorry but that's just a fact.


And your focusing on Adults, I already said I didn't give a sh*t which bathroom they use. My focus is on School age kids and how to make it fair for all involved. 


Also, instead of answering the simple question of how to make this fair for everyone involved, you keep focusing on the wrong thing.
It's as simple as mandating Single use bathrooms in public places, this way everyone is treated the same (I have been waiting for one of you to offer this up, but it doesn't seem that you are all capable of finding a middle ground, It's constantly your way or not at all). This is a much better method than trying to constantly please a few (you know the liberal way of doing things). This can also be applied to schools and the overall problem is solved other than biological men competing against biological women in Women's sports, which at the current time i see no resolution other than to have an open category. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-09-2024, 09:23 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Just to clarify so I better understand your point. Who is they?

Wasn't it supposed to be Zhey? 
even Liberals can't keep the dam pronouns straight

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 10:53 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Also, instead of answering the simple question of how to make this fair for everyone involved, you keep focusing on the wrong thing.
It's as simple as mandating Single use bathrooms in public places, this way everyone is treated the same (I have been waiting for one of you to offer this up, but it doesn't seem that you are all capable of finding a middle ground, It's constantly your way or not at all). This is a much better method than trying to constantly please a few (you know the liberal way of doing things). This can also be applied to schools and the overall problem is solved other than biological men competing against biological women in Women's sports, which at the current time i see no resolution other than to have an open category. 

Doesn't necessarily have to be single-use (assuming you're talking about 1 person bathrooms). Adding an additional category bathroom should work fine. Men, Women, and whatever non-offensive term is acceptable for the 3rd. This doesn't mean a girl who was born with a penis can't still go to the girls' room if that's what she prefers. We're not going to have people inspecting genitalia. But also prevents a male who wants to dress feminine that day from going into the women's bathroom. It's not so much about the adults I worry about. But many or most people don't want their children subjected to the issue.

[Belsnickel]

(04-09-2024, 10:53 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: On the science side, since it's definitely not the norm for people to have xxy chromosomes, Polydactylism is more common than that, and it's classified as a deformation. It doesn't make them a lesser person, just different and that's something they will have to deal with their whole lives. Sorry but that's just a fact.

You're still focusing on sex when I am discussing gender. They are two different things.

(04-09-2024, 10:53 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And your focusing on Adults, I already said I didn't give a sh*t which bathroom they use. My focus is on School age kids and how to make it fair for all involved. 

[quote='Mike M (the other one)' pid='1472079' dateline='1712670818']Also, instead of answering the simple question of how to make this fair for everyone involved, you keep focusing on the wrong thing.
It's as simple as mandating Single use bathrooms in public places, this way everyone is treated the same (I have been waiting for one of you to offer this up, but it doesn't seem that you are all capable of finding a middle ground, It's constantly your way or not at all). This is a much better method than trying to constantly please a few (you know the liberal way of doing things). This can also be applied to schools and the overall problem is solved other than biological men competing against biological women in Women's sports, which at the current time i see no resolution other than to have an open category. 

The infrastructure required for the single-stall bathrooms would be prohibitive; that's why I don't offer it up as a solution. Personally, I'd be okay with just one giant bathroom for everyone to use and stalls that didn't have gaps in them which would be a more economical solution, but people don't like that. Truthfully, though, there is no "middle ground" solution that will resolve these issues. There are always going to be people unhappy and demanding their side of things. Don't pretend that it's just a liberal thing when "conservatives" are out here doing the same. Honestly, most teens and kids probably wouldn't care if it wasn't learned behavior to care from the adults around them. If we instead taught them that you just mind your own business, some people are different, and what they do in the stall doesn't concern you then it wouldn't be an issue at all. But that would require actually working on our societal values rather than trying to utilize infrastructure to cover up our inadequacies as a society when it comes to treating each other with respect and dignity.

Just my two cents.

[*pally*]

(04-09-2024, 10:53 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: On the science side, since it's definitely not the norm for people to have xxy chromosomes, Polydactylism is more common than that, and it's classified as a deformation. It doesn't make them a lesser person, just different and that's something they will have to deal with their whole lives. Sorry but that's just a fact.


And your focusing on Adults, I already said I didn't give a sh*t which bathroom they use. My focus is on School age kids and how to make it fair for all involved. 


Also, instead of answering the simple question of how to make this fair for everyone involved, you keep focusing on the wrong thing.
It's as simple as mandating Single use bathrooms in public places, this way everyone is treated the same (I have been waiting for one of you to offer this up, but it doesn't seem that you are all capable of finding a middle ground, It's constantly your way or not at all). This is a much better method than trying to constantly please a few (you know the liberal way of doing things). This can also be applied to schools and the overall problem is solved other than biological men competing against biological women in Women's sports, which at the current time i see no resolution other than to have an open category. 

School-age kids care least of all.  It is the adults who are making the fuss

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 12:05 PM)pally Wrote: School-age kids care least of all.  It is the adults who are making the fuss

Adults are making the fuss to protect the kids.

[GMDino]

(04-09-2024, 12:10 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Adults are making the fuss to protect the kids.

Adults make a fuss because they are afraid and want their kids to be too.

It's why my kid doesn't care about any of it but another kid he graduated with sounds just like his dad talking about "queers" and such.

And I didn't tell my kids what to think. I just told them to treat everyone as equally as they could.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-09-2024, 12:10 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Adults are making the fuss to protect the kids.

Because the kids aren't being heard.