Bond slashed to 175 million while Trump appeals

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-26-2024, 01:51 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: “we must create an economy that works for all, not just the very wealthy.”

And somehow you don't agree with that ? 

I don't get you guys, you chose one side of the same coin that makes citizens go against each other while you should unite to go at them. Both parties. They play with you for centuries.

[Belsnickel]

(03-26-2024, 01:51 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Can we agree that in both cases of Socialism and Communism that the State controls the Wealth/Property etc and distributes it as it sees fit?

If we look at the Marxist theories, socialism is essentially just a stage of communism. There are some differences between the two of them, but in socialism there is still private property ownership.

(03-26-2024, 01:51 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Democratic Socialists embrace Liberal tactics where as Communism has no preference when it comes to tactics. 

He actually said social democrats, or what is sometimes called the "third way." It is a center-left ideology with a strong social safety net and regulated capitalism. Democratic socialism is to the left of social democracy and is seen as a stepping stone towards full-blown socialism which is not what social democracy is.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-26-2024, 01:59 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: And somehow you don't agree with that ? 

I don't get you guys, you chose one side of the same coin that makes citizens go against each other while you should unite to go at them. Both parties. They play with you for centuries.

No I do not.
Why should i work harder than someone else only to get the same $?

[Belsnickel]

(03-26-2024, 01:59 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: And somehow you don't agree with that ? 

I don't get you guys, you chose one side of the same coin that makes citizens go against each other while you should unite to go at them. Both parties. They play with you for centuries.

Hi there, are you new here?

[Belsnickel]

(03-26-2024, 02:01 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: No I do not.
Why should i work harder than someone else only to get the same $?

Where in those statements was it said they would get the same money?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-26-2024, 02:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: If we look at the Marxist theories, socialism is essentially just a stage of communism. There are some differences between the two of them, but in socialism there is still private property ownership.


He actually said social democrats, or what is sometimes called the "third way." It is a center-left ideology with a strong social safety net and regulated capitalism. Democratic socialism is to the left of social democracy and is seen as a stepping stone towards full-blown socialism which is not what social democracy is.

it is if you are trying to take control of the goods/property. 

He likes to point to the Scandinavian countries that have Medical/Education for all, but ignores that they also are all Free Enterprise markets. 

He wants the state to control the market as well. Not sure if there is another Pseudo term of socialism for that, but state controlled market is the definition of Socialism. 

[Belsnickel]

(03-26-2024, 02:08 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: it is if you are trying to take control of the goods/property. 

He likes to point to the Scandinavian countries that have Medical/Education for all, but ignores that they also are all Free Enterprise markets. 

He wants the state to control the market as well. Not sure if there is another Pseudo term of socialism for that, but state controlled market is the definition of Socialism. 

So, I saw the commentary from Sanders 50 years ago, I am curious about current statements that point to his desire for the state to control the market. Now, state control of the market is not the definition of socialism. Socialism is the state ownership of the means of production, which is different than market control. Market control is done in many different ways.

Now, the Nordic model is social democracy in action; so when I and others talk about social democrats you are seeing the results of those theories in Scandinavia. While you are correct that it is a very free market, there is also a large labor movement in the region which is what allows for the protections we see as well as an average of roughly 30% of the population working in the public sector when it comes to healthcare, education, etc. It's not quite as cut and dry as you think.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-26-2024, 02:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Where in those statements was it said they would get the same money?

I'm discussing Socialism. 
If he's discussing something else then he should clarify. 

Socialism is everyone works for the good of the state and only takes what they need. 
In the end, we can only take roughly the same out. No incentive for anyone to work harder. 
In a free enterprise you can elevate yourself over others.

What pseudo brand of socialism is he referring to?

[Belsnickel]

(03-26-2024, 02:27 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I'm discussing Socialism. 
If he's discussing something else then he should clarify. 

Socialism is everyone works for the good of the state and only takes what they need. 
In the end, we can only take roughly the same out. No incentive for anyone to work harder. 
In a free enterprise you can elevate yourself over others.

What pseudo brand of socialism is he referring to?

You seem to be focusing only on the extremes. Systems like the Nordic model work in the between areas to ensure that there is a redistribution of wealth in the economy that helps ensure all people are taken care of while also allowing for people to gain more. Mixed-model economies exist all over.

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-26-2024, 02:01 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: No I do not.
Why should i work harder than someone else only to get the same $?

You really think billionnaires work a thousand more times harder than you ?

We make the work, they got the money. What can go wrong ?

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-26-2024, 02:27 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I'm discussing Socialism. 
If he's discussing something else then he should clarify. 

Socialism is everyone works for the good of the state and only takes what they need. 
In the end, we can only take roughly the same out. No incentive for anyone to work harder. 
In a free enterprise you can elevate yourself over others.

What pseudo brand of socialism is he referring to?

It's already there. When Boeing are going bankrupt, they are bailed out with public money. American taxpayers money.

But when Boeing makes profits, nothing comes to you. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-26-2024, 03:03 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: It's already there. When Boeing are going bankrupt, they are bailed out with public money. American taxpayers money.

But when Boeing makes profits, nothing comes to you. 

Not a fan of bailing them out, but i think the politicians do it for political points. No one wants all those tax payers out of jobs overnight.

Just like the Auto industry a few years ago, It would have reset itself.

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-26-2024, 05:25 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Not a fan of bailing them out, but i think the politicians do it for political points. No one wants all those tax payers out of jobs overnight.

Just like the Auto industry a few years ago, It would have reset itself.

Like it or not it's real. But when you will have problems, you will be on your own. 

That's the point of our social democracies. Provide a safery net for people who has accidents in life because it happens, it happens to other people and it can happen to you. 

There is no point of taking hard working people's money ( because they already taking it right ? ) it's just about people who make crazy amount of money while profiting from the system.

We have a dude in France, he's the richest guy in the world. Bernard Arnault doing luxury shit for people. During the COVID we put public money in the market for the stock not to fall so it rised and who made a fortune from the stock out of public money ? It's Bernard of course. 

I pay 13% taxes on my net worth, Bernard is paying 11%

You think it's fair ? I don't.

And if you are telling me that taxing the shit of Joel Osteen or Kenneth Copeland is unfair, I'm just sorry for you. 

If those guys were outragingly taxes, believe me, you would have less pastors in your country but they will be real faithful people.

[Luvnit2]

(03-26-2024, 05:37 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Like it or not it's real. But when you will have problems, you will be on your own. 

That's the point of our social democracies. Provide a safery net for people who has accidents in life because it happens, it happens to other people and it can happen to you. 

There is no point of taking hard working people's money ( because they already taking it right ? ) it's just about people who make crazy amount of money while profiting from the system.

We have a dude in France, he's the richest guy in the world. Bernard Arnault doing luxury shit for people. During the COVID we put public money in the market for the stock not to fall so it rised and who made a fortune from the stock out of public money ? It's Bernard of course. 

I pay 13% taxes on my net worth, Bernard is paying 11%

You think it's fair ? I don't.

I am not a fan of paying additional taxes (federal, State and city) for net worth. Do you pay one tax for net worth, or do you pay an accumulation of taxes?

Years ago, my box asked me a question I will never forget. Would you rather have 25% of $100,000 or 20% of $200,000? Of course, I said 20% of $200,000 or $40,000 versus $25,000.

In my opinion it works the same with taxes. If France is collecting 11% of 1 billion dollars versus 13% of 1 million dollars, who is actually paying more to the government to use for those who need help? 

The next thing he said is you don't take %'s to the bank, you take money to the bank.
I used those concepts. my entire life.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-26-2024, 05:37 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Like it or not it's real. But when you will have problems, you will be on your own. 

That's the point of our social democracies. Provide a safery net for people who has accidents in life because it happens, it happens to other people and it can happen to you. 

There is no point of taking hard working people's money ( because they already taking it right ? ) it's just about people who make crazy amount of money while profiting from the system.

We have a dude in France, he's the richest guy in the world. Bernard Arnault doing luxury shit for people. During the COVID we put public money in the market for the stock not to fall so it rised and who made a fortune from the stock out of public money ? It's Bernard of course. 

I pay 13% taxes on my net worth, Bernard is paying 11%

You think it's fair ? I don't.

And if you are telling me that taxing the shit of Joel Osteen or Kenneth Copeland is unfair, I'm just sorry for you. 

If those guys were outragingly taxes, believe me, you would have less pastors in your country but they will be real faithful people.

Is that his fault or the systems fault? 
Cause you'd be amazed at how little Federal Income Tax Warren Buffet pays annually.

[Belsnickel]

(03-26-2024, 06:28 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Is that his fault or the systems fault? 
Cause you'd be amazed at how little Federal Income Tax Warren Buffet pays annually.

I think his point is that it is the system's fault.

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-26-2024, 06:28 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Is that his fault or the systems fault? 
Cause you'd be amazed at how little Federal Income Tax Warren Buffet pays annually.

I know Trump was paying 750$ and I'm pretty sure all rich people do that too because ... they make the laws. You don't. And from both parties. 

As long as lawmakers work for their donators, their lobbyists and their own interests, as long as they will show you 'muletas' with culture wars, gender wars, invasions via their own medias to distance people from the real problem. 

They **** us on daily basis and somehow we don't say anything. 

But it works, so why would they stop ? Spilling the hate towards anyone while partying together when the curtain is closed.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-26-2024, 07:03 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: I know Trump was paying 750$ and I'm pretty sure all rich people do that too because ... they make the laws. You don't. And from both parties. 

As long as lawmakers work for their donators, their lobbyists and their own interests, as long as they will show you 'muletas' with culture wars, gender wars, invasions via their own medias to distance people from the real problem. 

They **** us on daily basis and somehow we don't say anything. 

But it works, so why would they stop ? Spilling the hate towards anyone while partying together when the curtain is closed.

No not all, some don't know how to work the system.

Where did that $750 come from? Never saw anything about how much he actually paid.

[Arturo Bandini]

(03-26-2024, 08:00 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: No not all, some don't know how to work the system.

Where did that $750 come from? Never saw anything about how much he actually paid.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/us/trump-750-taxes.html

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-26-2024, 03:03 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: It's already there. When Boeing are going bankrupt, they are bailed out with public money. American taxpayers money.

But when Boeing makes profits, nothing comes to you. 

actually is that the one where they refused the bailout and got a 25B bond instead?