Britain's own Trump

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2019, 05:13 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It could be because I didn't care. It wasn't a conversation I was a part of and so I didn't feel the need to interject in such a way. I try to stay out of the drama between Dino, Dill, and SSF as much as possible and try to resist stirring the pot. I would kindly as that you not try to drag me into that.

Well I am of the opinion that if those we tend to side with point out fallacies in our argument we can work to curb the activity. For instance Dino could tell me my slant was faulty and I'd just chalk it up to "we disagree on everything" but if someone I agree with chimes in and tells me I may be off the mark; I'll take that under more consideration. IMO it can lend itself to more civil discord around here.

I know, I strive to do this. Just the other day someone I always (usually) agree with said something to someone I always disagree with that I felt was unfair and I chimed in and said so; even though I wasn't part of the conversation. I've seen folks plenty chime in into conversations they are not part of when they generally disagree with the poster. I see you assert to not be one of those.  

Do I need to share with you a thread where I was constantly called a troll by someone, with whom I was not conversing? 

[Belsnickel]

(07-26-2019, 05:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well I am of the opinion that if those we tend to side with point out fallacies in our argument we can work to curb the activity. For instance Dino could tell me my slant was faulty and I'd just chalk it up to "we disagree on everything" but if someone I agree with chimes in and tells me I may be off the mark; I'll take that under more consideration. IMO it can lend itself to more civil discord around here.

I know, I strive to do this. Just the other day someone I always (usually) agree with said something to someone I always disagree with that I felt was unfair and I chimed in and said so; even though I wasn't part of the conversation. I've seen folks plenty chime in into conversations they are not part of when they generally disagree with the poster. I see you assert to not be one of those.  

Do I need to share with you a thread where I was constantly called a troll by someone, with whom I was not conversing? 

Do I need to point out the times where I have contradicted folks on my side? It's happened recently and in this thread at that. Unfortunately, I don't spend as much time on here as I once did and so I don't often have enough time to interject myself to point out fallacies in conversations I'm not involved in.

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2019, 06:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Do I need to point out the times where I have contradicted folks on my side? It's happened recently and in this thread at that. Unfortunately, I don't spend as much time on here as I once did and so I don't often have enough time to interject myself to point out fallacies in conversations I'm not involved in.

Fair enough, just a suggestion.

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2019, 05:15 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think he believed they would. I think a lot of the promises he made and cannot follow through on were rooted in ignorance. That has been my position all along: Trump did not understand, and continues to have trouble understanding, how government works.

And I believe there are those that thought they could orchestrate a Brexit as they promised; aka the Divorce. 

[Arturo Bandini]

(07-23-2019, 11:47 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hopefully he can actually fulfill the will of the electorate and get the UK out of the EU.

And what will they do ?

Their market is the EU and if they want to sell their goods,they'll have to apply the rules of the EU.

Last time I checked, they don't produce things you can't get elsewhere.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2019, 04:31 PM)GMDino Wrote: I bet I'm in trouble now because it says "a final word" and not "the final word".  

Nonetheless if it was NOT "the final word" then they should have options to get out from under it moving forward, IMHO.

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/


"But some people who support leaving the EU say there’s plenty of evidence that the referendum was politically binding. They say that the referendum process sent clear instructions to MPs that they should support the decision made by a majority of voters—even if the formalities don’t require them to.

They point to the fact that, during one of the debates on the referendum bill on 9 June 2015, the then Foreign Secretary said “decision about our membership should be taken by the British people, not by Whitehall bureaucrats, certainly not by Brussels Eurocrats; not even by Government Ministers or parliamentarians in this Chamber”.
Similarly, the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result. This promise, too, does the rounds on social media.
Leaflets are not law, and the High Court has since told the government that it can’t keep this promise without the approval of Parliament. But that doesn’t stop anyone from making the case that MPs delegated the Brexit decision to the voters, and have no right to unmake it now."



I said it was advanced as a final word on the matter and it was.  I'll take my apology now, thank you.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2019, 06:38 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: And what will they do ?

Their market is the EU and if they want to sell their goods,they'll have to apply the rules of the EU.

Last time I checked, they don't produce things you can't get elsewhere.

Your argument is that the EU can get anything the UK makes elsewhere but the UK has nowhere else to sell what they make?  This couldn't be more basically wrong.  Last I looked the US isn't part of the EU and we sell stuff to you guys all the time.

[Belsnickel]

(07-26-2019, 06:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And I believe there are those that thought they could orchestrate a Brexit as they promised; aka the Divorce. 

I don't give that benefit of the doubt to MEUPs, who have as part of their job understanding EU laws.

[Arturo Bandini]

(07-26-2019, 06:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Your argument is that the EU can get anything the UK makes elsewhere but the UK has nowhere else to sell what they make?  This couldn't be more basically wrong.  Last I looked the US isn't part of the EU and we sell stuff to you guys all the time.

So they'll have to find new markets really, really fast.

Like 90% of new markets.

Good luck with that.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2019, 08:17 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: So they'll have to find new markets really, really fast.

Like 90% of new markets.

Good luck with that.

So, you're OK with the UE completely closing its markets to the UK?  I suppose then you'd be equally OK with the US completely freezing the EU out of the US market?  Maybe let the UK leave the EU and not be complete pricks about it?  The EU should never have been anything other than an economic free trade zone.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2019, 06:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Do I need to point out the times where I have contradicted folks on my side? It's happened recently and in this thread at that. Unfortunately, I don't spend as much time on here as I once did and so I don't often have enough time to interject myself to point out fallacies in conversations I'm not involved in.

To be fair, I don't see you as really having a side in regards to this board.  Clearly you have GM, Dill and JJwhatever on the left and bfine and Michaelsean on the right.  Apologies if I missed anyone.  I think most people on here have a generally mixed ideology.

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2019, 08:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't give that benefit of the doubt to MEUPs, who have as part of their job understanding EU laws.

I think we can all agree Brexit was/is unique. The fact that they were going to work on a divorce supports that. How could anyone expect them to know how it was/is going to work? Hell we still don't know how it is going to work. 

I get you must defend your "faulty anaolgy" assertion, but you're kind of grasping at straws. 

[Belsnickel]

(07-26-2019, 08:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think we can all agree Brexit was/is unique. The fact that they were going to work on a divorce supports that. How could anyone expect them to know how it was/is going to work? Hell we still don't know how it is going to work. 

I get you must defend your "faulty anaolgy" assertion, but you're kind of grasping at straws. 

The leave campaign said they could get free movement while closing their borders. EU law prohibits that. MEPs should know better, and they were among those making that claim. I'm not grasping at anything.

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2019, 08:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The leave campaign said they could get free movement while closing their borders. EU law prohibits that. MEPs should know better, and they were among those making that claim. I'm not grasping at anything.

EU law currently prohibits that. They cannot change their laws is a major partner exits? How many laws did they change the last time a major country exited? 

[Belsnickel]

(07-26-2019, 08:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: To be fair, I don't see you as really having a side in regards to this board.  Clearly you have GM, Dill and JJwhatever on the left and bfine and Michaelsean on the right.  Apologies if I missed anyone.  I think most people on here have a generally mixed ideology.

Eh, I'm pretty solidly on the left. Most people do have a mixed ideology, but that is also because our concept of what is liberal or conservative is a bit off. When you actually look at the underlying principles involved it can leave you scratching your head.

[Belsnickel]

(07-26-2019, 08:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: EU law currently prohibits that. They cannot change their laws is a major partner exits? How many laws did they change the last time a major country exited? 

They haven't had a major country exit, and it was plain from the outset that their plan was to make an example of the UK if they did leave, so there was no way to think the EU would do them any favors.

I believe you might be grasping at straws, here.

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2019, 08:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: To be fair, I don't see you as really having a side in regards to this board.  Clearly you have GM, Dill and JJwhatever on the left and bfine and Michaelsean on the right.  Apologies if I missed anyone.  I think most people on here have a generally mixed ideology.

Hey way to throw others under the bus while considering yourself and the dude who called you out in this very thread "centralists". 

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2019, 08:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: They haven't had a major country exit, and it was plain from the outset that their plan was to make an example of the UK if they did leave, so there was no way to think the EU would do them any favors.

I believe you might be grasping at straws, here.

E
X
A
C
T
L
Y.

But for some reason you can assert everyone knew what was going to happen. Is it possible that maybe, just maybe the EUwas talking tough in an effort to get them not to exit or am I grasping at straws? 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-26-2019, 08:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hey way to throw others under the bus while considering yourself and the dude who called you out in this very thread "centralists". 

Dude, you're reading a negative connotation that isn't there.  You're a right leaning guy, there's nothing wrong with that.  If opinion of Bel in this regards differs from your that's cool.

[*bfine32*]

(07-26-2019, 09:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dude, you're reading a negative connotation that isn't there.  You're a right leaning guy, there's nothing wrong with that.  If opinion of Bel in this regards differs from your that's cool.

As I've said I'm conservative by nurture. But like most in this forum I'd like to consider my views are mixed. For instance my views on gun control probably go more Left than many Liberals. 

And the crazy thing is: I don't think Matt and I disagree on the actual matter; pretty sure we're both in the "let the will of the people rule". He just called my perfectly stated analogy "false". So I took exception.