(01-28-2017, 08:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I remember seeing some sort of proposal that would have broken Cali into 7 different States. I think that idea quickly died, once they realized that 5 of the 7 would be conservative, thus netting them an 8 seat Senatorial deficit along with many House seats.
It was a conservative donor that proposed the plan and just like seceding it was laughed off the stage.
Found some economic data from a couple of years ago. California is 13.3% of the U.S. economy, next closest is Texas at 9.5%. Be a big chunk of the federal tax base if California left. Also, California would quickly form relations with Mexico and Canada, plus other South American countries and Asian countries. They wouldn't wither and die without the United States.
(01-28-2017, 09:32 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Found some economic data from a couple of years ago. California is 13.3% of the U.S. economy, next closest is Texas at 9.5%. Be a big chunk of the federal tax base if California left. Also, California would quickly form relations with Mexico and Canada, plus other South American countries and Asian countries. They wouldn't wither and die without the United States.
P.S. Also 12% of the entire country's population.
If that big chunk goes, so does the amount they're getting from the Fed. They would be unable to operate without federal programs. And Mexico and Canada aren't going to fix that.
We all seem to agree it's a ludicrous idea but California would absolutely be the big loser.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ― Albert Einstein
(01-28-2017, 09:48 PM)McC Wrote: If that big chunk goes, so does the amount they're getting from the Fed. They would be unable to operate without federal programs. And Mexico and Canada aren't going to fix that.
We all seem to agree it's a ludicrous idea but California would absolutely be the big loser.
Quote:Instead of paying taxes to the federal government, Californians would keep that money in the state. Yes California expects those tax dollars would increase California's budget by "hundreds of billions of dollars," seeing that the state has paid more in federal taxes than it has received in federal payouts (in the amount of double-digit billions) every year since 1995.
Here's the rest of the article:
Quote:Yes California released a 33-page blue book on its website this year explaining its path to secession. It also provides clues as to what life might be like in a post-secession California.
To be clear, a state has not seceded from the union since the 1860s, and those 11 southern states rejoined after the American Civil War. The event that Calexit actually happens is unlikely, and we have no idea what the impact of a California exit might have.
But Yes California claims, at least, that a new California will be more or less the same.
If California broke away from the union — a process that would take years after the state election in 2018, when Californians will potentially (though unlikely) vote on a ballot initiative that gauges their support for secession — it would become a sort of sister nation of the US.
"We're not trying a 1860s breakaway," Louis Marinelli, president of Yes California, told The Los Angeles Times in 2015."We're talking about California being recognized as a nation within a nation, like Scotland in the United Kingdom. We feel California is more than just a state." We don't know yet what kind of government, be it parliamentary or presidential, would take hold. Californians would choose the type of democracy it installs through a series of elections, according to the group's blue book. The country could craft an entirely new system, which sounds like it would change life quite a bit, contrary to Yes on California's claims.
Instead of paying taxes to the federal government, Californians would keep that money in the state. Yes California expects those tax dollars would increase California's budget by "hundreds of billions of dollars," seeing that the state has paid more in federal taxes than it has received in federal payouts (in the amount of double-digit billions) every year since 1995.
An independent California would continue to use American currency, the group hopes. The US dollar is a "'fully-tradeable' international currency, which means any country can use it if it wants to without requiring the US Government's permission."
Ecuador, El Salvador, and the British Virgin Islands, for example, use the US dollar. The swirling uncertainty around Calexit, which has yet to get a formal response from Sacramento, the state's capital, prompts lots of questions.
The campaign's blue book at least addresses the more practical elements of life in California. What happens to our avocados? Could we still compete in the Olympics? (Answer is yes.)
The Golden State's ranches and farms raked in $47 billion in crop cash receipts in 2015. It produces over a third of the country's vegetables and two-thirds of fruits and nuts, making California's agriculture industry the largest in the nation.
Booming agriculture could theoretically keep California's economy afloat post-secession. Yes California wants to reinvest the money the new country earns in global experts into environmental conservation, technological innovation, and road maintenance and transportation infrastructure. (It ignores the awkward transition that millions of Californians would have to make in turning their businesses into global ones.) Worried about your social security dollars? Yes California thought of that, too.
The Social Security Administration allows US citizens living outside the country to receive retirement payment so long as they are eligible and reside in a country where the US can send money. People living in Cuba or North Korea, for example, must exit to get their money.
Still, it's impossible to know how Yes California's dreamy picture of California as an independent nation would play out in practical terms.
The blue book leaves a gaping hole in one important area, summarized in this tweet.
Quote:Go ahead, California.....secede. Just don't expect any fresh water from the other 49! #Calexit
— URC (@TheURCShow) November 9, 2016
There's no clear path to supply the state's 38 million people with drinking water. While much of California's water comes from rain and snow that falls in the northern and eastern parts, the Colorado River also funnels water into drought-stricken western states including California.
While Southern California has invested more than $1 billion over the last decade to decrease its dependence on the Colorado, the state up and leaving the US would probably not bode well under the 94-year-old agreement between Colorado and its neighbors.
Yes California has a short window to answer these questions and more.
As the campaign becomes inundated with new interest, following the election's biggest upset in political history, Yes California will face more scrutiny, as well. The group's Facebook page [url=http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article113790243.html]doubled in "likes" since November 8th, and gained just as many opponents on social media.
Curiosity may fade as quickly as it started unless Yes California finds followers beyond Facebook and Twitter's fleeting ones.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(01-28-2017, 09:32 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Found some economic data from a couple of years ago. California is 13.3% of the U.S. economy, next closest is Texas at 9.5%. Be a big chunk of the federal tax base if California left. Also, California would quickly form relations with Mexico and Canada, plus other South American countries and Asian countries. They wouldn't wither and die without the United States.
P.S. Also 12% of the entire country's population.
I wonder what part of that economy and population % would leave California if they became their own country.
I highly doubt Hollywood would want to have to get passports and visas every time they want to shoot anything in the other 49 states. Same with the tech companies, who wouldn't want the tariffs involved in sending their products from California to Colorado. Also take away all the military bases and ports, and the surrounding areas they support. Plus all the federal employees. Plus the general amount of people who want to retain their US citizenship.
Don't get me wrong, they'd still be a big population and economy, but the numbers you just provided are with all those federal jobs/dollars and assuming 100% of people and businesses in California stay there and renounce their citizenship.
(01-28-2017, 10:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I wonder what part of that economy and population % would leave California if they became their own country.
I highly doubt Hollywood would want to have to get passports and visas every time they want to shoot anything in the other 49 states. Same with the tech companies, who wouldn't want the tariffs involved in sending their products from California to Colorado. Also take away all the military bases and ports, and the surrounding areas they support. Plus all the federal employees. Plus the general amount of people who want to retain their US citizenship.
Don't get me wrong, they'd still be a big population and economy, but the numbers you just provided are with all those federal jobs/dollars and assuming 100% of people and businesses in California stay there and renounce their citizenship.
Hollywood does a lot of shooting in Canada so visas aren't a problem.
And we have military bases in lots of of foreign countries. No problem there either.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(01-29-2017, 08:22 AM)McC Wrote: So you're arguing that they should secede? I'd say most of America would say who gives a shit?
Only the Americans who've never been there. If Alabama, Mississippi, or Arkansas leaves, then who gives a shit? California is an interesting place. I think it's funny to write off a state because there is a feeling that many people there don't share the same political views as you do.
This is a ***** non story anyway. It's not like Californians are screaming for secession en masse. It's a couple of damn kooks.
I'm gonna break every record they've got. I'm tellin' you right now. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but it's goin' to get done.
Not happening, just the same temper tantrum that Texas threw when Obama got elected. Succession is forbidden by the Constitution, we fought a war over this issue, some of you have probably heard of it. Lastly, there are millions of California residents, including myself, that swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
But Jason is exactly right, this is a fringe issue pipe dream for those in need of therapy because Clinton lost. Outside of LA, Alameda and San Francisco county California is a largely red state; in area not in population. Northern CA will certainly be looking to reboot the old Jefferson state plan as well. Calexit is a dumb idea in just about every way.
Quote:Oroville Dam exposes rift between conservative town, coastal liberals
(Photo: Trevor Hughes/USA TODAY)
OROVILLE, Calif. — Eldon Hofeling raises his voice over the roar of backhoes, helicopters, tumbling rocks, dump trucks and 750,000 gallons of water rushing past every second.
“It’s driving me nuts,” he says.
Steps away from his house, hundreds of contractors are struggling to repair the Oroville Dam before the spring rains arrive in earnest. A stream of semi-trailers unloads chunks of rocks, which backhoes then load onto large dump trucks to deliver to weak spots on the other side of the dam. Helicopters chatter overhead every 90 seconds, lifting in even more rocks to shore up the dam’s top. Diesel engines rumble day and night, contractors bark orders and neighbors wander by to take a look.
Every bedroom window in Hofeling's house looks out over the dam, at what is now a staging area. Contractors told him this repair effort could last weeks.
Recovery and repair in Oroville
A sign welcomes evacuees back to Oroville, Calif. following a flood evacuation. Trevor Hughes/USA TODAY
The mere threat of a dam failure last week was enough to temporarily evacuate about 200,000 people living downstream. And a collapse could cause death and devastation in both the short- and long-term: This reservoir stores water to irrigate downstream farms and provide drinking water for Los Angeles.
Residents here in Oroville, Marysville and Yuba City are now living with the fresh knowledge that maybe this dam isn’t as safe as they thought. That fact that the water benefits people hundreds of miles away from this danger is reverberating around these conservative communities that see little common ground with the far more liberal Californians on the coast and in Silicon Valley.
This isn’t just idle talk: One of the first signs heading into Oroville, population 16,000, urges residents to support seceding from California to create a new state of Jefferson. Here in inland California, Gov. Jerry Brown’s name evokes disgust, and President Donald Trump is seen as the one who really cares. Here, residents distrust a state government they think is all-too-eager to help undocumented immigrants and build a bullet train to serve the rich coastal elites, leaving them with little.
“I bet that if they put this effort into building it right the first time, they wouldn’t have to do all of this,” Hofeling, 66, says as a backhoe drops rocks into a dump truck, shaking the ground. It’s a refrain voiced time and again in Oroville and the surrounding towns: The liberal, more populated parts of California suck up all the political attention and public dollars, leaving little for the men and women who help grow the nation’s food, fruits and nuts. That dichotomy has bred a mistrust of state government and a healthy skepticism of federal officials, Trump excepted. How is it, the people here ask, that state and federal officials didn’t seem to have the money to properly fix the dam’s problems when they were first identified, but have seemingly untold millions available when the crisis finally arrived.
To understand the situation, you have to look more carefully at California’s voting tallies. Statewide, Hillary Clinton clobbered Trump, winning 61% of the popular vote and 4.2 million more votes than Trump. On one hand, this is a state that utterly rejected Trump. On the other hand, because California is so big, there’s wide variation in political affiliations. Eldon Hofeling watches contractors load rocks being used to repair the Oroville Dam. The work continues 24 hours a day, making it hard for Hoteling and his wife to sleep in their own home. "I bet that if they put this effort into building it right the first time, they wouldn't have to do this," he says. (Photo: Trevor Hughes/USA TODAY)
The farmers and ranchers of Butte County, surrounding Oroville, live vastly different lives than the millionaires strolling Santa Monica’s beaches or riding the Google buses to Mountain View or the Facebook coaches to Menlo Park. Butte County favored Trump in the election 46% to 42%, despite the presence of the more urban and traditionally more liberal Chico within its boundaries. Downstream neighbor Yuba County, home of Yuba City and Marysville, is perhaps a more accurate barometer: It went for Trump at nearly 58%.
In this part of the state, Brown is the bad guy for picking fights with the president over immigration, climate change and national priorities. Trump, in turn, called California “out of control” and suggested he might try to withhold federal funding, particularly over whether the more liberal coastal cities were acting as sanctuaries for undocumented immigrants.
“As you know, I’m very much opposed to sanctuary cities. They breed crime. There’s a lot of problems,” Trump told Fox News host Bill O’Reilly. “If we have to, we’ll defund. We give tremendous amounts of money to California. California in many ways is out of control, as you know.” Brown, for his part, has lauded Trump for promising to repair the nation’s roads, bridges and dams, but has also promised to use the state’s scientists, lawyers and resources to fight the president’s “alternative facts.”
The bad blood has flowed downstream, from the retired homebuilder who trusts Trump over the locally managed state Division of Water Resources, to the traffic flagger who laughs that liberal environmentalists aren’t worried about rare fish when their own homes are endangered, to the evacuee who refuses to return home or be quoted by name because she doesn’t trust what the government will do with the information. A rainbow arches above the Feather River where it crosses beneath power lines beneath the Oroville Dam. Workers severed the lines during the flooding fear, worried that a flood could rip out both lines and towers, causing even more damage. (Photo: Trevor Hughes/USA TODAY)
Everyone here, it seems, has a reason to distrust some level of the government. Nowhere was that more evident than when a video showing a National Guard soldier giving out wrong information about the state of the dam and evacuation began ricocheting around social media hours after the evacuation order was lifted. What he said contradicted the official line from dam managers, and the public seemed ready to accept his version over theirs, especially as some Californians already believed dam managers had covered up the extent of repair work conducted in 2009.
Dam managers say they’re making good progress on repairing the damage caused when the reservoir overtopped its emergency spillway, scouring away trees, dirt and boulders. Managers had feared the emergency spillway could collapse, sending a wall of water downstream. That threat has eased, and workers are now shoring up the spillway and removing debris from below the dam.
Still, social media has been filled with rampant rumors and speculation that government officials were misstating the risk for some political gain, and there’s skepticism bordering on paranoia that the “real story” isn’t being told by the media or the government.
“We have this longstanding history in our country, based on the idea that people control the government, not the other way around,” said Butte County Sheriff Kory Honea, who ordered the evacuation and then spent days defending it against critics on both sides of the aisle. Wading into that political tension are the state and federal emergency-management agencies trying to help.
“Basically, they’re like don’t mess with us. We don’t need you…until we need you,” said Craig Fugate, the head of FEMA under President Obama. “You have to understand that level of mistrust. It’s not personal.”
Fugate said the political dynamic in California mirrors that of many states, from his native Florida to the urban-rural divide of Washington state. The Oroville Dam’s potential failure could have been the first major test of the relationship between Trump and outspoken critic Brown, who after opposing the president asked him to declare a disaster in Oroville. An engineer with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers monitors water spilling from the Oroville Dam. The dam is controlled by the California Division of Water Resources, but the Army Corps of Engineers was providing assistance in monitoring and developing repair plans. (Photo: Trevor Hughes/USA TODAY)
Without addressing the conflict, Trump quickly approved the request via FEMA, freeing up potentially hundreds of millions of dollars and resources to pay for the repairs that are now disturbing Hofeling’s days and nights. Ballpark costs for repairs are set at $200 million.
“I learned early on that all disasters are local, as all politics are local,” Fugate said. “You drop your logos and your egos at the door… this is not about you, this is not about your ego, your publicity. It’s about the people we are serving in a time of need. Because that need is a non-political need.”
In Oroville, few people see it that way. Everyone gets run through the lens of politics. They’re mad about Brown’s election (Gov. Moonbeam, they remind visitors), his plans for a high-speed train along the coast, and about the meddling of government in the ways they heat their homes, get their electricity and the kinds of cars they drive.
They feel the dam’s managers only respond to crises and only when they impact Democratic voters on the coast. And they’re heartened that Trump has vowed to rebuild the nation’s infrastructure — on Saturday night at a rally in Florida, he called upon Congress to pass a $1 trillion infrastructure package. For the people beneath the dam, the fact that no Trump-Brown feud materialized is an example of the new president’s munificence. But they’re also well aware that things could have gone very differently here. “It’s very frustrating,” says 23-year police officer and Oroville resident Jeff Wiles, as he watched the emergency repair work with his son. “It just irritates you.”
Wiles worked several days straight during the evacuation as police officers, sheriff’s deputies and the California Highway Patrol emptied the Butte County Jail and then flooded the town with officers to prevent burglaries and looting. Wiles says he looks forward to retirement in a few years, so he can move his family, maybe to Idaho, to be among fellow conservatives. He’s tired, he says, of living in a state so split between Democrats and Republicans.
“You tell the president, ‘we don’t want anything to do with you,’ and then you ask for help?” Wiles says. “At least he’s not holding a grudge. I wouldn’t blame him if he did.”
Oh I do love conservatives who want all that federal money for their problems, ***** about where it comes from, and say no one else should get it because of their politics.
But if they want to secede they really should.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
Oh I do love conservatives who want all that federal money for their problems, ***** about where it comes from, and say no one else should get it because of their politics.
But if they want to secede they really should.
First of all: I pray for a safe resolution to this dam
Secondly: I don't see the rationale of your comments. You do realize that they do not want to secede from the Nation don't you? IF you had replaced state with Federal in your remarks then they would have made sense.
East and West California, and then West California can leave.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
(02-20-2017, 11:17 AM)bfine32 Wrote: First of all: I pray for a safe resolution to this dam
Secondly: I don't see the rationale of your comments. You do realize that they do not want to secede from the Nation don't you? IF you had replaced state with Federal in your remarks then they would have made sense.
Yes, they want away from the state....so they can have that sweet, sweet federal money all to themselves! None for those dirty liberals.
They should go all the way and leave the country! That way none of their hard earned tax dollars will go to those hippies!
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
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Calexit
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Yes California 
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