Caught walking while Black

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 02:04 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Maybe you need thicker skin...

I am not offended by his insults.  I would have to have some respect for his opinion in order to be offended.


All I did was point out that personal insults don't add anything of substance to the discussion.

[*bfine32*]

(11-09-2015, 02:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: All I did was point out that personal insults don't add anything of substance to the discussion.

Words to live by.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-09-2015, 01:53 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't know why you are puzzled.  I have already pointed out that i considered this to be a "public safety" stop instead of one that would justify any sort of citation.

What you consider it would be irrelevant.  Whether it violates the law in the state it occurred, which it apparently does, is relevant. 

Quote:In Tennessee we don't give out citations for people walking down the road who are not obstructing traffic.  If they do that in her state then I agree that the police had the right to ask for her ID.  But I just don't see it ever happen here.  And since the officer didn't mention anything about any legal violation and only talked about her safety I really don't think he felt he had any grounds to give her a citation.

Again, you don't know, but that doesn't stop you from making definitive statements.  Again, does Tennessee not have jaywalking laws?  I asked this before and you failed to respond for some reason.  If it does then this action would have been a citable offense in your state as well.

Quote:Now will you agree that when you come in contact with a person, but have no cause to believe that he was involved in any criminal activity you don't have the right to make him give you his identification?  You said you were going to address this, but you actually didn't.

Depends, since you like to be very legalistic, on whether you consider a engaging in a citable offense "criminal activity"?  Just walking up to a random citizen and asking for identification is wrong and potentially violates civil rights.  Asking a woman engaging in a citable offense for her ID is a matter of course.

(11-09-2015, 02:00 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I find your lack of reading comprehension disturbing for one who claims to be an officer of the law.  When I mentioned your tendency to resort to name calling I never limited it to direct responses to me.

I love it when you get all Pee Wee Herman.  You, specifically, since you like to be legalisitc, stated I didn't have to resort to name calling.  you made this statement in this thread.  You made no mention of other thread in that statement or any other prior to this one.  This would lead the so called reasonable person to believe you were referencing a statement made in this thread.  When asked to produce an example you failed to do so.  I then made a deliberate post containing one and, sadly and predictably, you seized on it as your example. Quite sincerely, for a lawyer you're very bad at this kind of arguing. 

Quote:And based on your history I am not surprised that you try to avoid any accountability for resorting to personal insults. 

Accountability?  For what?  I own what I say.  I asked for an example, you had none until I deliberately gave you one.  Even in that example the worst you can point out is that I said that in some of your posts you're completely full of shit.  A few examples of this can be found in this very thread btw.  If you consider that name calling then you're probably not cut out for this whole internet thing.

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 02:52 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  Again, does Tennessee not have jaywalking laws?  I asked this before and you failed to respond for some reason.  If it does then this action would have been a citable offense in your state as well.

"Jaywalking" has to do with pedestrians crossing roads or intersections.  They do not apply in this case.

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2015, 04:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Do you disagree with what I said, or do you just want to play silly little "name-calling" games.

Well I guess this answers my question.

(11-09-2015, 02:52 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I asked for an example, you had none until I deliberately gave you one. 

This is how attorneys play police officers.  We give them some rope and let them hang themselves.

Notice that I never accused him of doing it.  I just asked if that was what he wanted to do.  

And he fell for it.

[djs7685]

(11-09-2015, 01:53 AM)fredtoast Wrote: In Tennessee we don't give out citations for people walking down the road who are not obstructing traffic.  If they do that in her state then I agree that the police had the right to ask for her ID.  But I just don't see it ever happen here.  And since the officer didn't mention anything about any legal violation and only talked about her safety I really don't think he felt he had any grounds to give her a citation.

Well, it has been pointed out they do, in fact, "do that" in her state.

With the second statement that I put in bold, it really seems like you're just squealing and crying because the police officer WASN'T tough on her when he could have cited her for the incident.

"What, you mean he DIDN'T cite her when he could have according to their laws, and he just asked to see some ID and other standard procedures while telling her that she should walk on the other side of the road for the safety of her and others?! BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!! WHAT A TERRIBLE OFFICER"

*cue the "omg strawman cuz i never sed exactly wat you sed dat i sed"*

[GMDino]

(11-09-2015, 09:49 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Well, it has been pointed out they do, in fact, "do that" in her state.

With the second statement that I put in bold, it really seems like you're just squealing and crying because the police officer WASN'T tough on her when he could have cited her for the incident.

"What, you mean he DIDN'T cite her when he could have according to their laws, and he just asked to see some ID and other standard procedures while telling her that she should walk on the other side of the road for the safety of her and others?! BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!! WHAT A TERRIBLE OFFICER"

*cue the "omg strawman cuz i never sed exactly wat you sed dat i sed"*

I won't say I speak for Fred, but I read that as "If you aren't going to cite them, or even tell them you COULD cite them, you don't ask for the ID."

If they  said "this is a citable offense, we're not going to give you a ticket but do you have some ID" that would be different if I'm taking what Fred said correctly.

[djs7685]

(11-09-2015, 10:15 AM)GMDino Wrote: I won't say I speak for Fred, but I read that as "If you aren't going to cite them, or even tell them you COULD cite them, you don't ask for the ID."

If they  said "this is a citable offense, we're not going to give you a ticket but do you have some ID" that would be different if I'm taking what Fred said correctly.

Even if that's the case of what he meant to say, I hold my stance that it seems as if some are complaining that the officer was actually nicer than he could have been about the entire situation.

People are acting like asking for ID is some absurd, unnecessary act. I'm not in law enforcement to be as informed on their side of things, but as a random civilian without law enforcement background, I've NEVER even seen the slightest issue with getting my driver's license out of my wallet for anyone in uniform that has asked for it.

If I'm driving 6 MPH over the speed limit, if my brake light is out, or if I'm walking on the street where I shouldn't be, I have no problem complying with an officer that wants to see my identification. It just seems silly to complain about that. It's not like he's assaulting me or having me jump through hoops, handing over an ID card seems like a petty thing for people to ***** about.

[GMDino]

(11-09-2015, 10:36 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Even if that's the case of what he meant to say, I hold my stance that it seems as if some are complaining that the officer was actually nicer than he could have been about the entire situation.

People are acting like asking for ID is some absurd, unnecessary act. I'm not in law enforcement to be as informed on their side of things, but as a random civilian without law enforcement background, I've NEVER even seen the slightest issue with getting my driver's license out of my wallet for anyone in uniform that has asked for it.

If I'm driving 6 MPH over the speed limit, if my brake light is out, or if I'm walking on the street where I shouldn't be, I have no problem complying with an officer that wants to see my identification. It just seems silly to complain about that. It's not like he's assaulting me or having me jump through hoops, handing over an ID card seems like a petty thing for people to ***** about.

Again just because they can doesn'tmean they have to IMHO.  That's all I meant.  If the lady didn't seem suspicious in any other way a friendly warning and keep going would have been a non-story.  Be nice to the officer...be nice to the citizen.  Not every situation, but this one.

[*michaelsean*]

I saw a request not a demand for ID, and when she couldn't comply there were no repercussions.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-09-2015, 10:56 AM)GMDino Wrote: Again just because they can doesn'tmean they have to IMHO.  That's all I meant.  If the lady didn't seem suspicious in any other way a friendly warning and keep going would have been a non-story.  Be nice to the officer...be nice to the citizen.  Not every situation, but this one.

Depends on what you mean by have to.  If you mean in a cosmic, we all have free will way, then no, they don't have to.  However, if you mean engaging in their day to day duties and following policy then yes, they very likely have to.  Picture this, this woman out for a stroll is a wanted felon.  The police establish contact with her but don't ask for ID, again likely in violation of policy.  The person then goes out and commits another, serious felony.  The police essentially allowed a crime to happen by not following policy.

Now, if, in the example in OP, this woman had been walking on the sidewalk and doing nothing to justify initiating official contact with her, then you'd absolutely have a point.  Honestly, what you're advocating is that the police stop doing their jobs properly so as not to potentially offend someone enough for them to write about it on the internet.

[GMDino]

(11-09-2015, 11:33 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Depends on what you mean by have to.  If you mean in a cosmic, we all have free will way, then no, they don't have to.  However, if you mean engaging in their day to day duties and following policy then yes, they very likely have to.  Picture this, this woman out for a stroll is a wanted felon.  The police establish contact with her but don't ask for ID, again likely in violation of policy.  The person then goes out and commits another, serious felony.  The police essentially allowed a crime to happen by not following policy.

Now, if, in the example in OP, this woman had been walking on the sidewalk and doing nothing to justify initiating official contact with her, then you'd absolutely have a point.  Honestly, what you're advocating is that the police stop doing their jobs properly so as not to potentially offend someone enough for them to write about it on the internet.

What I am "advocating" is if they weren't going to cite her or even tell her she's breaking a law they can tell her and keep moving.  You insist they had to as part of their duties.  Okie dokie.  I meant in a it was necessary based on why they stopped her and what she was doing.  Heck, she didn't have any ID on her and they let it go anyway.  What's the difference in asking and not getting it and not asking?

Picture this:  The officer walks up and tells her everything he tells her...minus asking for the ID...and then says "Have a good day."  Crazy, huh?

[Rotobeast]

She was veering into the middle of the roadway, flailing her arms as if in distress (one could suspect drug induced or mental illness), and an observation of creating a dangerous situation by wandering into traffic.
I would assume the request for ID was to confirm that she was not a mentally disabled person that disappeared from a care facility or a home health care provider.
Yes..... she came across as quite cognitive, but there are many people that appear so, even off of their medication.

[Au165]

We have now jumped the shark on police relations in this country and it is sad. Seriously, I just can't see how this is even questionable. They stopped her for her own safety and afterwards asked her for an ID. They had a right to stop her because it was a very minor misdemeanor, and it is their job to keep everyone safe anyways, and afterwards asked for ID as is protocol for any stop with cause. I have been in a car that was pulled over while I was a teen and the officer asked for everyone in the cars license (all teenagers). We all complied and he handed them back and told us all to go on our way. We did not have to comply (only driver has to), but we didn't want to hassle a guy for doing his job.

[GMDino]

(11-09-2015, 01:34 PM)Au165 Wrote: We have now jumped the shark on police relations in this country and it is sad. Seriously, I just can't see how this is even questionable. They stopped her for her own safety and afterwards asked her for an ID. They had a right to stop her because it was a very minor misdemeanor, and it is their job to keep everyone safe anyways, and afterwards asked for ID as is protocol for any stop with cause. I have been in a car that was pulled over while I was a teen and the officer asked for everyone in the cars license (all teenagers). We all complied and he handed them back and told us all to go on our way. We did not have to comply (only driver has to), but we didn't want to hassle a guy for doing his job.

I wonder how many people know that?  Or how many times it led to a "hassle" or bigger deal because someone didn't do what they they didn't have to?

[Rotobeast]

(11-09-2015, 01:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: I wonder how many people know that?  Or how many times it led to a "hassle" or bigger deal because someone didn't do what they they didn't have to?

If only we'd give in to the Obama Care RFID chip, we wouldn't have to worry about this discussion.

[GMDino]

(11-09-2015, 01:47 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: If only we'd give in to the Obama Care RFID chip, we wouldn't have to worry about this discussion.

And don't get me wrong, I've never refused to show my ID either.  Just having a discussion about what you HAVE to do vs what you are ASKED to do.  

[Rotobeast]

(11-09-2015, 01:49 PM)GMDino Wrote:

And don't get me wrong, I've never refused to show my ID either.  Just having a discussion about what you HAVE to do vs what you are ASKED to do.  

And always ask..... "Am I being detained ?".

But yeah, I always whip out my ID give them a "shit-eating grin" (not sure where that term originated and maybe I don't want to) to make them wonder what I've been up to.
Often, I'll initiate conversations about their sidearm.
All of the officers I've encountered have been nothing but professional.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-09-2015, 12:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Police officer asks "Can I see your ID?".  He is allowed to do this.

If you say "no" then he can not make you produce ID or punish you in any way unless he has probable cause to believe you are involved in criminal activity.

He is allowed to ask.  He is not allowed to make you comply.

In fact almost every time an officers asks if he can search your car he has no authority to make you submit to the search.  People just don't know they can so "No" to a police officer.  Generally if they have the authority to search without your permission they don't even bother to ask.

(11-08-2015, 04:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote:  And all along I have said that the police did nothing wrong until they requested her ID.

Again, make up your mind, man. Either the police are NOT allowed to ask or request ID, in which case they were wrong to do so, or they ARE allowed to ask or request ID, in which case they did NOTHING wrong.

[fredtoast]

(11-10-2015, 05:24 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Again, make up your mind, man. Either the police are NOT allowed to ask or request ID, in which case they were wrong to do so, or they ARE allowed to ask or request ID, in which case they did NOTHING wrong.

I have already explained this once.  

(11-08-2015, 05:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No contradiction in my commenst.

A police officer is entitled to ask you to strip naked by the side of the road for a body cavity search.  That does not mean it is right for him to ask.

I don't know if you just did not read it the first time or not.  But the meaning is pretty clear.

There is no law against me asking your wife to give me a blow job, but I'll bet you would think it was wrong if I did.

Get it now?