Chauvin Will Be Innocent- Prepare For Riots

[BFritz21]

(04-21-2021, 03:25 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Intent is irrelevant to the conversation. It isn't a requirement for the murder charge he was convicted of.

Second degree murder means that he caused the death while intentionally committing another crime, so what was he intentionally committing?

The third degree murder charge requires proof that Chauvin committed an act that is imminently dangerous, which kneeling on Floyd's shoulder wasn't, and he must have committed with a conscious indifference to life.

The judge even initially ruled that this charge didn't fit but it was overturned on appeal.

So intent isn't irrelevant.

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-21-2021, 11:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The stats on gun death rates show the highest numbers by far in mostly in the head deep red southern and western states.

Fwiw, I'd be curious to read about this and check into the source.

I would have thought gun death rates somewhat mirrored the murder rates but that doesn't seem to be the case (if your statement is correct).

[BFritz21]

(04-21-2021, 03:34 PM)Au165 Wrote: Experts said otherwise and a jury of his peers agreed with those experts. You are wrong yet again Brad.

What part of that is wrong and how?

You make a broad claim with nothing to back it up because you know I'm 100% right. 

[Belsnickel]

(04-21-2021, 03:44 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Second degree murder means that he caused the death while intentionally committing another crime, so what was he intentionally committing?

That actually isn't a requirement for second-degree murder in Minnesota.

(04-21-2021, 03:44 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: The third degree murder charge requires proof that Chauvin committed an act that is imminently dangerous, which kneeling on Floyd's shoulder wasn't, and he must have committed with a conscious indifference to life.

The judge even initially ruled that this charge didn't fit but it was overturned on appeal.

Actually, it is "eminent," which seems like a minor difference but it is an important one. Applying pressure in that way is eminently dangerous. It also doesn't have to be a conscious indifference to human life. The statute states that the suspect must display depravity, which would really be more of an unconscious indifference to human life. I can understand the judge's argument, though the indifference of Chauvin was certainly present.

(04-21-2021, 03:44 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: So intent isn't irrelevant.

Again, it isn't. The statutes do not require intent.

Quote:609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:

(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or

(2) by shooting another with a firearm or other dangerous weapon as a result of negligently believing the other to be a deer or other animal; or

(3) by setting a spring gun, pit fall, deadfall, snare, or other like dangerous weapon or device; or

(4) by negligently or intentionally permitting any animal, known by the person to have vicious propensities or to have caused great or substantial bodily harm in the past, to run uncontrolled off the owner's premises, or negligently failing to keep it properly confined; or

(5) by committing or attempting to commit a violation of section 609.378 (neglect or endangerment of a child), and murder in the first, second, or third degree is not committed thereby.

If proven by a preponderance of the evidence, it shall be an affirmative defense to criminal liability under clause (4) that the victim provoked the animal to cause the victim's death.

Quote:609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.
(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.

(b) Whoever, without intent to cause death, proximately causes the death of a human being by, directly or indirectly, unlawfully selling, giving away, bartering, delivering, exchanging, distributing, or administering a controlled substance classified in Schedule I or II, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years or to payment of a fine of not more than $40,000, or both.

Quote:609.19 MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation; or

(2) causes the death of a human being while committing or attempting to commit a drive-by shooting in violation of section 609.66, subdivision 1e, under circumstances other than those described in section 609.185, paragraph (a), clause (3).

Subd. 2.Unintentional murders. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of unintentional murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years:
(1) causes the death of a human being, without intent to effect the death of any person, while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense other than criminal sexual conduct in the first or second degree with force or violence or a drive-by shooting; or

(2) causes the death of a human being without intent to effect the death of any person, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict bodily harm upon the victim, when the perpetrator is restrained under an order for protection and the victim is a person designated to receive protection under the order. As used in this clause, "order for protection" includes an order for protection issued under chapter 518B; a harassment restraining order issued under section 609.748; a court order setting conditions of pretrial release or conditions of a criminal sentence or juvenile court disposition; a restraining order issued in a marriage dissolution action; and any order issued by a court of another state or of the United States that is similar to any of these orders.

[BFritz21]

(04-21-2021, 03:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That actually isn't a requirement for second-degree murder in Minnesota.

It's required to show that he had intent to commit another felony and then that resulted in Floyd's death.

What was Chauvin's intent?

(04-21-2021, 03:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Actually, it is "eminent," which seems like a minor difference but it is an important one. Applying pressure in that way is eminently dangerous. It also doesn't have to be a conscious indifference to human life. The statute states that the suspect must display depravity, which would really be more of an unconscious indifference to human life. I can understand the judge's argument, though the indifference of Chauvin was certainly present. 

That was a standard procedure that Chauvin was performing.

(04-21-2021, 03:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Again, it isn't. The statutes do not require intent.

Follow the link and see my above explanation.  It does require intent.

[Mickeypoo]

(04-21-2021, 11:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The stats on gun death rates show the highest numbers by far in mostly in the head deep red southern and western states.

But conservative Republicans like yourself iignore these facts in order to blame all the gun violence on "inner cities".

Who cares what states are the highest?  I said if you cleaned up ALL the inner cities.  I am not ignoring anything.

You on the other hand are doing some kind of weird deflection completely irrelevant of what I said.

Your problem is you are stuck in boxes and all you can see are red/blue and lib/cons.

[fredtoast]

(04-21-2021, 03:45 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, I'd be curious to read about this and check into the source.

I would have thought gun death rates somewhat mirrored the murder rates but that doesn't seem to be the case (if your statement is correct).

Yeah. Maybe you should educate yourself a little before commenting.

Here are southern and western states that have the highest gun murder rates.

#1 Louisiana
#2 Missouri
#3 South Carolina
#5 Alaska
#6 Maryland
#7 Tennessee
#8 Georgia
#9 Mississippi
#10 Nevada

The only exception is Delaware at #4

[*Nately120*]

(04-21-2021, 03:17 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I have a feeling you know you are perfectly safe.  Now if there were a bunch of ANTIFA/BLM flags up around you I am sure you would have some actual cause for concern.

Actually, I used to live in Chicago and I'll be damned if everyone wasn't sure I was living in an absolute war zone...I must have missed it.


Side note, 15 pages and a guilty verdict later and some people still can't wrap their head around how a man who was filmed killing someone in broad daylight with witnesses got convicted of murder. The OP seems pretty sure Chavin isn't all that guilty...are we sure he isn't just too scared of right-wing terrorists to side with the legal system on this one?

[Mickeypoo]

(04-21-2021, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah. Maybe you should educate yourself a little before commenting.

Here are southern and western states that have the highest gun murder rates.

#1 Louisiana
#2 Missouri
#3 South Carolina
#5 Alaska
#6 Maryland
#7 Tennessee
#8 Georgia
#9 Mississippi
#10 Nevada

The only exception is Delaware at #4

So these states do not have inner cities that if cleaned up would lead to far less gun violence stats?

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-21-2021, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah. Maybe you should educate yourself a little before commenting.

Dude, wtf?

I said I would be curious to read about this.  Why should I educate myself more before asking for the info?  It seems like that was exactly what I was trying to do.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-21-2021, 01:00 PM)Stewy Wrote: But are we or have we correcting anything?  No laws have changed (yet).   It appears Congress is at least talking about it (https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/7120), but it isn't like this is a new issue (hi Rodney King from 30 years ago).

However, it's speculated that Republicans are going to do everything they can to kill the above legislation.

Until the gov't ACTS and does something, the situation is going to continue to get worse.   

Lowering the criminal intent standard for federal prosecutions is a non starter for me.  Given the current political climate I don't think we should make it easier to go on witch hunts against officers.  One need look no further than the Columbus shooting yesterday.  Despite clear as day evidence there are still calls to arrest the officer, or dispute their use of lethal force.  Granted they're mostly coming from the idiots on twitter, but those idiots are being seriously listened to by far too many people in power. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-21-2021, 04:14 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Who cares what states are the highest?  I said if you cleaned up ALL the inner cities.  I am not ignoring anything.

You on the other hand are doing some kind of weird deflection completely irrelevant of what I said.

Your problem is you are stuck in boxes and all you can see are red/blue and lib/cons.

I don't see Fred's posts unless someone is quoting them, but his statement is, as usual, deceptive bullshit.  If he was an honest person he'd say that the rates are higher per capita in some areas of the south.  The vast majority of homicides occur within major metropolitan areas, which are almost always run by Democrats.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-21-2021, 04:22 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: So these states do not have inner cities that if cleaned up would lead to far less gun violence stats?

Ask him to dig a little further and find out what parts of those states contribute the most to these murder rates.  If you guessed it will be major metropolitan areas run by Democrats you'll win an internet prize.

[Mickeypoo]

(04-21-2021, 04:21 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Actually, I used to live in Chicago and I'll be damned if everyone wasn't sure I was living in an absolute war zone...I must have missed it.


Side note, 15 pages and a guilty verdict later and some people still can't wrap their head around how a man who was filmed killing someone in broad daylight with witnesses got convicted of murder.  The OP seems pretty sure Chavin isn't all that guilty...are we sure he isn't just too scared of right-wing terrorists to side with the legal system on this one?

I think Chavin got what he deserved.  No excuse for what he did.

[Mickeypoo]

(04-21-2021, 04:36 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Ask him to dig a little further and find out what parts of those states contribute the most to these murder rates.  If you guessed it will be major metropolitan areas run by Democrats you'll win an internet prize.

Correct.  

My point was that if we were able to clean up EVERY inner city there would be an astronomical drop in gun violence.  Shocking.

I have no idea why he started listing off states with high crime.  Who cares what state it is?

Maybe he will chime in and explain.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-21-2021, 04:43 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: My only point was that if we were able to clean up EVERY inner city there would be an astronomical drop in gun violence.  

I have no idea why he started listing off states with high crime.  Who cares what state it is?

I won't go into further detail, but suffice to say trust nothing Fred says and expect him to twist everything you say and claim you said things you didn't.

[Belsnickel]

(04-21-2021, 04:05 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: It's required to show that he had intent to commit another felony and then that resulted in Floyd's death.

What was Chauvin's intent?

Where do the statutes say that?

(04-21-2021, 04:05 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: That was a standard procedure that Chauvin was performing.

No it wasn't. SOP for any LEOs I know would be that you restrain like that to cuff the individual and get them up. This is because lying face down restricts airways. Compression on the back restricts airways further. And at any sign of distress it is the duty for an officer to render aid, which did not occur. So, no, Chauvin was not performing the standard procedure. That is why he was fired.

(04-21-2021, 04:05 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Follow the link and see my above explanation.  It does require intent.

What link? All I care about is the statute, which I quoted directly from the Minnesota statutes website.

[Mickeypoo]

(04-21-2021, 04:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I won't go into further detail, but suffice to say trust nothing Fred says and expect him to twist everything you say and claim you said things you didn't.

I agree.  

I have been here since the original Bengal owned message board.  Just never posted much.

[samhain]

(04-21-2021, 04:43 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Correct.  

My point was that if we were able to clean up EVERY inner city there would be an astronomical drop in gun violence.  Shocking.

I have no idea why he started listing off states with high crime.  Who cares what state it is?

Maybe he will chime in and explain.

Good idea.  Lets let anyone who can manage to get himself a badge and gun shoot as many black kids as he wants.  We could let them wear hoods if you like.  Maybe start a club.  It could have a name.  Maybe just 3 of the same letter to make it easy to remember.  Or maybe just 1 big capital letter to go with the new republican standard.  Most Q types would probably love that sort of thing.  I bet it would end all the school shootings and shopping center murders.  

Cleanse the blacks!  Q will show them all!  A StORm IZ CoMInG!!!

[Au165]

I want to remind everyone 15 pages in again that Brad was completely wrong and that’s why you shouldn’t make proclamations of guilt before the evidence is all presented, especially such adamant ones. Maybe a rule should be made about topics be discussion based rather than proclamation based?