Child sex slave in Nashville prison for killing man who used her

[GMDino]

(11-28-2017, 04:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: California is getting very bad in this regard.  Although, thankfully, murder will still likely get you transferred to adult court the process is much less certain now.  I have, recently, seen murder cases stay in the juvenile system for minors over the age of 14.  What we are starting to see is what prompted the certification to adult court process in the first place; that juveniles are being used to commit serious crimes because the amount of time they face is significantly shorter.  At the same time, the more lenient punishments are emboldening the criminal population and you won't find a single LEO, parole or probation officer in this state who won't privately admit to noticing it.


Maybe it is.  Right now there's a guy in prison serving life without parole who, if you let him out today, would never commit another crime.  Two things; one, there is no way of actually knowing that and two, the sentence was handed down as punishment.  You didn't address my analogy above about mitigating punishment and what that teaches people about consequences.  A human being, no matter what you thought of him as a person, is dead because of this woman's actions.  There has to be a punishment for such an action and nine years is not worth a human being's life.

I'll add this, the law doesn't exist to prevent crime, although for those who fear consequences it has that effect.  The law exists to provide a framework to punish those who violate it.

The bold is an opinion....yours.

I don't have a problem with "framework".  However I'm of the opinion (mine) that we are capable of working within it without the strictness in this case.

We can't "know" if someone is truly rehabilitated or will never commit a crime again or not any more than we "know" some is a criminal because of the way they ask a question.

In *this* case there was plenty of room for rehabilitation and mercy.  The system needs to be open to that.  

Maybe mistakes will be made.  Maybe people will be released who played the system who then go commit more crimes.  Maybe we also have less of a prison state overall.  

No system is perfect.  Let's look at this case as an example to make things better for the next victim of a life of sex and violence who finally does something to strike back.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-28-2017, 04:25 PM)GMDino Wrote: The bold is an opinion....yours.

Absolutely, it's also an informed opinion based on sixteen years of working in the criminal justice system with our criminal population and thousands of hours of training.

Quote:I don't have a problem with "framework".  However I'm of the opinion (mine) that we are capable of working within it without the strictness in this case.

Sure, this is an opinion that is shared by many politicians at this time.  It's also largely responsible for the rise in crime for 2016 and the continued rise we'll see when the UCR for 2017 comes out.

Quote:We can't "know" if someone is truly rehabilitated or will never commit a crime again or not any more than we "know" some is a criminal because of the way they ask a question.

I see what you did there.  Again, one is an informed opinion based on real life, long term experience.  The other, yours, is based on internet articles.  Just when I was about to congratulate you on not being snide for a change.

Quote:In *this* case there was plenty of room for rehabilitation and mercy.  The system needs to be open to that.  

Again, an opinion shared by many in blue states right now, to no good effect thus far.

Quote:Maybe mistakes will be made.

 
Already have been.

Quote:Maybe people will be released who played the system who then go commit more crimes. 

Already have been, in droves.

Quote:Maybe we also have less of a prison state overall.  

I'm all for this, just not at the expense of public safety and because it makes people like yourself and Kim Kardashian feel better.

Quote:No system is perfect.  Let's look at this case as an example to make things better for the next victim of a life of sex and violence who finally does something to strike back.

Wait, she didn't "strike back", she murdered a guy.  If she had killed her pimp you'd be absolutely correct.  I also highly doubt she'd have been given the same sentence if she had.  She killed a guy so she could rob him, point blank.  As I stated above, her situation should be pitied, but it doesn't excuse first degree murder for criminal gain.  I suppose this is an easier opinion to have when you haven't had to confront the real world consequences of the actions of our criminal population.  It's a shame we can't all wallow in such blissful ignorance.

[GMDino]

(11-28-2017, 04:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Absolutely, it's also an informed opinion based on sixteen years of working in the criminal justice system with our criminal population and thousands of hours of training.



Sure, this is an opinion that is shared by many politicians at this time.  It's also largely responsible for the rise in crime for 2016 and the continued rise we'll see when the UCR for 2017 comes out.



I see what you did there.  Again, one is an informed opinion based on real life, long term experience.  The other, yours, is based on internet articles.  Just when I was about to congratulate you on not being snide for a change.



Again, an opinion shared by many in blue states right now, to no good effect thus far.


 
Already have been.



Already have been, in droves.



I'm all for this, just not at the expense of public safety and because it makes people like yourself and Kim Kardashian feel better.


Wait, she didn't "strike back", she murdered a guy.  If she had killed her pimp you'd be absolutely correct.  I also highly doubt she'd have been given the same sentence if she had.  She killed a guy so she could rob him, point blank.  As I stated above, her situation should be pitied, but it doesn't excuse first degree murder for criminal gain.  I suppose this is an easier opinion to have when you haven't had to confront the real world consequences of the actions of our criminal population.  It's a shame we can't all wallow in such blissful ignorance.

Again, agree to disagree.

I believe we should work to improve people...not just punish.  Maybe 16 years have jaded you?  I don't know.  I just have more faith in people without 16 years of thinking they are bad and won't get better and that "blue states" are making things worse...speaking of "snide".

Thanks.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Hold on here, did this girl reach into her purse, pull out a gun then shoot the guy in the back of the head as he lay on his stomach on the bed then rob him?

If so, I could see her getting off if she killed her pimp but not murdering and robbibg a "John".

[GMDino]

(11-28-2017, 05:00 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Hold on here, did this girl reach into her purse, pull out a gun then shoot the guy in the back of the head as he lay on his stomach on the bed then rob him?

If so, I could see her getting off if she killed her pimp but not murdering and robbibg a "John".

Pretty much.  And she was charged and found guilty.  I just think the life sentence was harsh given that she was being pimped out and her life of sexual abuse to that point.  Which, btw, no one has doubted or refuted.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-28-2017, 04:55 PM)GMDino Wrote: Again, agree to disagree.

Except you didn't leave it at that, then or now.

Quote:I believe we should work to improve people...not just punish.

 
I believe that too.

Quote:Maybe 16 years have jaded you?  I don't know.

If that's what you have to believe to discount my overwhelmingly greater experience with this issue then feel free.
 

Quote:I just have more faith in people without 16 years of thinking they are bad and won't get better and that "blue states" are making things worse...speaking of "snide".

I believe I stated in a previous post that many do, indeed, get better.  Maybe reading my posts will prevent this kind of error on your part?  As for the "blue states" statement, that wasn't snide, it was quite overt.  It is also, again, grounded in real world experience.  If you have a different explanation for the sudden reversal in a twenty-five year trend then feel free to provide it.   

Quote:Thanks.

You're welcome.

[GMDino]

(11-28-2017, 05:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Except you didn't leave it at that, then or now.


 
I believe that too.



If that's what you have to believe to discount my overwhelmingly greater experience with this issue then feel free.
 

I believe I stated in a previous post that many do, indeed, get better.  Maybe reading my posts will prevent this kind of error on your part?  As for the "blue states" statement, that wasn't snide, it was quite overt.  It is also, again, grounded in real world experience.  If you have a different explanation for the sudden reversal in a twenty-five year trend then feel free to provide it.   


You're welcome.

I'm sure you've seen good come out of the system.  However your responses:

(11-28-2017, 04:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:

Wait, she didn't "strike back", she murdered a guy.  If she had killed her pimp you'd be absolutely correct.  I also highly doubt she'd have been given the same sentence if she had.  She killed a guy so she could rob him, point blank.  As I stated above, her situation should be pitied, but it doesn't excuse first degree murder for criminal gain.  I suppose this is an easier opinion to have when you haven't had to confront the real world consequences of the actions of our criminal population.  It's a shame we can't all wallow in such blissful ignorance.

...are just as snide as you accuse others of being.  They come of as a disregard for trying to rehabilitate because of "16 years of experience".  If someone with 20 has the opposite view are you wrong?  25? 40?

I don't have to believe you are jaded.  I don't have to believe anything to disagree with you on your opinion in *this* case.  I'm sure there would be others we would agree on.  But in this case you want to stick to "the facts" of the killing versus "the facts" of her life.  Is killing her pimp to rob him better?  Than killing the guy who paid to have sex with her?  What is the value of the pimp's life versus the value of the guy picking up 16 year old girls and paying them for sex?  

There is plenty of room for debate.  However I'm sticking with she got a raw deal based on her life.  Hopefully she gets the opportunity to make a better life for herself too.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-28-2017, 05:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'm sure you've seen good come out of the system.  However your responses:

Oddly enough, you left out this part from my very first post in this thread;

Quote:I have worked with CSEC youth and many other youth in the criminal justice system.  Most of them come from situations that we would all lament and not even wish upon or worst enemies.  Some of them are good people who were never properly taught, who can, and often are, saved and become productive members of society.  Some of them are, quite honestly, evil people who commit horrible crimes.  While we can lament the life that created the criminal they have become we cannot allow ourselves to mitigate their behavior because of it.  I tell people in the juvenile justice system all the time, I am pro-kid right up to the point that I become pro-victim.

When you ignore evidence that doesn't support your position you weaken any point you may think you're making.  If you confined yourself to addressing points actually made you may sway an opinion or two.

Quote:...are just as snide as you accuse others of being.  They come of as a disregard for trying to rehabilitate because of "16 years of experience".  If someone with 20 has the opposite view are you wrong?  25? 40?

No, but they'd have a solid foundation for said opinion and they'd be able to articulate it.  What you're attempting to do is dismiss experience with the actual population we're discussing as "jaded".  It's the exact same thing as telling a career military officer that they don't know more than you about combat because they're experience "jaded" them.  I said it in my first post, you have to come to terms with the fact that I know considerably more about this issue, both in real world experience and training, than you do.  The fact that you don't personally like me shouldn't prevent you from admitting such an obvious fact.

Quote:I don't have to believe you are jaded.  I don't have to believe anything to disagree with you on your opinion in *this* case.  I'm sure there would be others we would agree on.  But in this case you want to stick to "the facts" of the killing versus "the facts" of her life.

 
The facts of the killing determine the charges, for which she was convicted.  The facts of her life come into play during sentencing as a potential mitigating factor.

Quote:Is killing her pimp to rob him better?  Than killing the guy who paid to have sex with her?  What is the value of the pimp's life versus the value of the guy picking up 16 year old girls and paying them for sex?  

If she killed her pimp a very credible argument for self defense could be made, or at the least that she saw no other alternative.  Escaping a pimp who controls your life, and both physically and sexually abuses you, is vastly different than killing a guy so you can steal his cash and fire arms.

Quote:There is plenty of room for debate.  However I'm sticking with she got a raw deal based on her life.

 
Hell yeah she got a raw deal.  I stated this, again, in my original post.  I promise you if you go to any prison you'll hear horrible childhood stories from at least 80% of the people there.  I won't even get into some of the cases I've seen.  You can feel horrible for the child while holding the adult/teenager responsible.  Should this woman get a chance at an earlier parole date?  I don't think many people would have a huge issue with that.  Should it be tomorrow?  Not in my informed opinion.

Quote:Hopefully she gets the opportunity to make a better life for herself too.

She already has and she seems to be taking it.  I hope she sticks to it.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Before this thread continues, there needs to be a couple of definitions applied.

Kill - Cause the death of
Murder - Malicious Intentional cause the death of 

Those are my definitions and if we can agree on those then we all can agree that this girl murdered this man, she didn't kill him.

[GMDino]

(11-28-2017, 06:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Oddly enough, you left out this part from my very first post in this thread;



When you ignore evidence that doesn't support your position you weaken any point you may think you're making.  If you confined yourself to addressing points actually made you may sway an opinion or two.

I merely quoted the parts you felt the need to say before you agreed.

(11-28-2017, 06:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, but they'd have a solid foundation for said opinion and they'd be able to articulate it.  What you're attempting to do is dismiss experience with the actual population we're discussing as "jaded".  It's the exact same thing as telling a career military officer that they don't know more than you about combat because they're experience "jaded" them.  I said it in my first post, you have to come to terms with the fact that I know considerably more about this issue, both in real world experience and training, than you do.  The fact that you don't personally like me shouldn't prevent you from admitting such an obvious fact.

I didn't say you don't know how to do your job. Perhaps even quite well. I'm saying that your view of the people you deal with daily jades you overall worldview. I have no doubt you know more about the legal system. I also have no doubt that your opinion can still be, at the very least, not the only opinion that counts or matters just because of your job or the number of years at it.

For the record I'd want to tell a 30 year military veteran that going into a situation with all out war also isn't the only answer to a dispute. Experience does not always equal always correct either.

 

(11-28-2017, 06:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The facts of the killing determine the charges, for which she was convicted.  The facts of her life come into play during sentencing as a potential mitigating factor.

And a fair reading of everything I have posted would should that is what I have said the entire time. Thank you!

(11-28-2017, 06:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If she killed her pimp a very credible argument for self defense could be made, or at the least that she saw no other alternative.  Escaping a pimp who controls your life, and both physically and sexually abuses you, is vastly different than killing a guy so you can steal his cash and fire arms.

Yet people in this thread have completely dismissed her being "afraid". Suggesting that the john never threatened her "enough" to justify her actions. If she shot the pimp in the back of the head while he was sleeping? That's different? In this thread it was suggested that many (if not most) prostitutes are willingly working for pimps. Prove he abused her anymore than the john abused her.

See?
 

(11-28-2017, 06:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hell yeah she got a raw deal.  I stated this, again, in my original post.  I promise you if you go to any prison you'll hear horrible childhood stories from at least 80% of the people there.  I won't even get into some of the cases I've seen.  You can feel horrible for the child while holding the adult/teenager responsible.  Should this woman get a chance at an earlier parole date?  I don't think many people would have a huge issue with that.  Should it be tomorrow?  Not in my informed opinion.

And she WAS held responsible. She IS being held responsible. Your opinion is that nine years isn't long enough to turn her life around and be a good, contributing member of a free society. I disagree. And without EITHER of us directly involved in the case or with the girl your opinion holds no more sway than mine.

(11-28-2017, 06:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: She already has and she seems to be taking it.  I hope she sticks to it.

On this we agree also.

[Benton]

(11-28-2017, 06:11 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Before this thread continues, there needs to be a couple of definitions applied.

Kill - Cause the death of
Murder - Malicious Intentional cause the death of 

Those are my definitions and if we can agree on those then we all can agree that this girl murdered this man, she didn't kill him.

I think some of the outpouring of support for her clemency is the history (underage forced sex worker) that may have led to this not being malicious. Her state of mind at the time (multiple sexual assaults, having been beaten by her pimp, drug abuse since a young age) may have had her apathetic to life, but not malicious in her intent to end someone else's. In other words, she didn't desire to cause someone harm, but she didn't have a value for human life since there wasn't much value for hers.

Not that it changes what she did, or makes her any more or less able to return to society. But — hopefully — if there is something good to come out of this, it's that laws and awareness are better able to help girls who might be in the same situation avoid the same destination.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(11-28-2017, 06:24 PM)Benton Wrote: I think some of the outpouring of support for her clemency is the history (underage forced sex worker) that may have led to this not being malicious. Her state of mind at the time (multiple sexual assaults, having been beaten by her pimp, drug abuse since a young age) may have had her apathetic to life, but not malicious in her intent to end someone else's. In other words, she didn't desire to cause someone harm, but she didn't have a value for human life since there wasn't much value for hers.

Not that it changes what she did, or makes her any more or less able to return to society. But — hopefully — if there is something good to come out of this, it's that laws and awareness are better able to help girls who might be in the same situation avoid the same destination.

Had she killed her pimp, it would have a different outcome and she would most likely not even be in prison and most likely getting the help she needs to live in society.

If she had killed the "John" and ran out of the hotel room screaming rape, I'm sure the pimp would be in jail and she would be getting the help she needs as well.

But, she murdered a "John" execution style using her own gun out of her purse as the "John" lay on the bed face down and then robbed him.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-28-2017, 04:55 PM)GMDino Wrote: I believe we should work to improve people...not just punish. 

This is, I believe, probably the biggest issue that needs resolved with our justice system. i don't think it's a stretch to say that sentencing, especially prison sentences, is basically nothing but an attempt to punish. There are some judges that make the attempt to also rehabilitate, but generally, I believe there needs to be a better attempt at balancing rehabilitation with punishment. 

(11-28-2017, 05:05 PM)GMDino Wrote: Pretty much.  And she was charged and found guilty.  I just think the life sentence was harsh given that she was being pimped out and her life of sexual abuse to that point.  Which, btw, no one has doubted or refuted.

If I was routinely beaten and hospitalized by my dad when I was a kid, then turned around and beat my kids up to the point where one dies. Do I still receive your sympathy and thus, my punishment should be mitigated by that?

I know it's not exactly the same, but there's a time when your past should mitigate your actions and a time when they shouldn't. I feel for her past, but, IMO, that doesn't excuse cold blooded murder. As others have said, if this was her pimp or even a regular john who routinely abused her, then we're talking a different story. This john may be an asshole and a piece of shit, but those qualities don't mean you get to be murdered by anyone, let alone someone with a truly tragic past.

[GMDino]

(11-29-2017, 03:41 PM)PhilHos Wrote: This is, I believe, probably the biggest issue that needs resolved with our justice system. i don't think it's a stretch to say that sentencing, especially prison sentences, is basically nothing but an attempt to punish. There are some judges that make the attempt to also rehabilitate, but generally, I believe there needs to be a better attempt at balancing rehabilitation with punishment. 


If I was routinely beaten and hospitalized by my dad when I was a kid, then turned around and beat my kids up to the point where one dies. Do I still receive your sympathy and thus, my punishment should be mitigated by that?

I know it's not exactly the same, but there's a time when your past should mitigate your actions and a time when they shouldn't. I feel for her past, but, IMO, that doesn't excuse cold blooded murder. As others have said, if this was her pimp or even a regular john who routinely abused her, then we're talking a different story. This john may be an asshole and a piece of shit, but those qualities don't mean you get to be murdered by anyone, let alone someone with a truly tragic past.

Your example, as you noted, doesn't compare to hers.  She is not taking our her past on someone weaker than herself.  And she was 16.  In your example you are a grown man.

Now then: I *would* have sympathy for you.  I *would* want to see if you could be rehabilitated.  I don't see an issue with that.  Someone needs to step in and try to stop that cycle when they can.

We don't know what the john did before she shot him other than what she said.  We don't know if it was a regular john.  We don't know a lot.

What we DO know is that she was sexually abused, pimped out and killed someone who paid to have sex with a 16 year old.  She was found guilty and sentenced.  I just personally feel the sentence is too severe given her history.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-29-2017, 03:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: Your example, as you noted, doesn't compare to hers.  She is not taking our her past on someone weaker than herself.  And she was 16.  In your example you are a grown man.

That's pretty sexist of you, man. I always thought you believe men and women were equal.

Seriously, though, so what? Let's change my example then to going and beating up guys my age but that looked like my dad and then one day I killed one. I may still deserve some sympathy, but I doubt people will think I only need a few years in prison for punishment.

(11-29-2017, 03:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: Now then: I *would* have sympathy for you.  I *would* want to see if you could be rehabilitated.  I don't see an issue with that.  Someone needs to step in and try to stop that cycle when they can.

Agreed and whose to say that being in prison isn't exactly what she needed to stop the cycle?

(11-29-2017, 03:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: We don't know what the john did before she shot him other than what she said.  We don't know if it was a regular john.  We don't know a lot.

True, and yet you are positive that her sentence is too harsh. How can you say that and yet still admit that there's a lot we don't know? For all we know, maybe this guy was someone who worked to try to get women and girls OUT or prostitution and she killed him for fear of whatever reason. I know it's highly unlikely that's the case, but as you just said, "We don't know a lot."

(11-29-2017, 03:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: What we DO know is that she was sexually abused, pimped out and killed someone who paid to have sex with a 16 year old.  She was found guilty and sentenced.  I just personally feel the sentence is too severe given her history.

Yes, but why? You think murder is ok because someone had a tragic lifestyle? Or is murder ok because the dude was trying to have sex with a 16 year old (although I believe someone said there's doubt as to whether he knew she was 16)?

I know, I know. You don't think murder is ok at all. But, you DO think someone's crimes should not be punished that harshly if they have a tragic past. Correct?

Would you still feel the same if her victim was a beloved high school teacher who just happened to be in front of her on the street? What if her victim was a prominent imam who has crusaded for reforming Islam to not tolerate terrorists? What if her victim was Al Franken? (Ok, that last one was just a joke). 

But, seriously, at what point does the CRIME matter to you (in terms of harshness of the punishment) over the kind of person the victim was?

[GMDino]

(11-29-2017, 04:10 PM)PhilHos Wrote: That's pretty sexist of you, man. I always thought you believe men and women were equal.

Seriously, though, so what? Let's change my example then to going and beating up guys my age but that looked like my dad and then one day I killed one. I may still deserve some sympathy, but I doubt people will think I only need a few years in prison for punishment.

The stronger beating on the weak is always bad. Was the guy you killed abusing you? Different circumstances. Each case is unique.

(11-29-2017, 04:10 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Agreed and whose to say that being in prison isn't exactly what she needed to stop the cycle?

No one said prison wasn't called for. It is the amount of time in prison that I had a problem with.

(11-29-2017, 04:10 PM)PhilHos Wrote: True, and yet you are positive that her sentence is too harsh. How can you say that and yet still admit that there's a lot we don't know? For all we know, maybe this guy was someone who worked to try to get women and girls OUT or prostitution and she killed him for fear of whatever reason. I know it's highly unlikely that's the case, but as you just said, "We don't know a lot."

Because of what we DO know. And one of those things is that he picked her up for sex. Not to save her soul.

Beyond that we DO know what her childhood was like. No one has disputed that.

(11-29-2017, 04:10 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, but why? You think murder is ok because someone had a tragic lifestyle? Or is murder ok because the dude was trying to have sex with a 16 year old (although I believe someone said there's doubt as to whether he knew she was 16)?

I know, I know. You don't think murder is ok at all. But, you DO think someone's crimes should not be punished that harshly if they have a tragic past. Correct?

I think that each case is unique. I think this case should not have resulted in life in prison, for a multitude of reasons.

(11-29-2017, 04:10 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Would you still feel the same if her victim was a beloved high school teacher who just happened to be in front of her on the street? What if her victim was a prominent imam who has crusaded for reforming Islam to not tolerate terrorists? What if her victim was Al Franken? (Ok, that last one was just a joke). 

Any of them pick up a 16 year old for sex that was being pimped out?

(11-29-2017, 04:10 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But, seriously, at what point does the CRIME matter to you (in terms of harshness of the punishment) over the kind of person the victim was?

Each case is unique. In this case (not any hypothetical one) I think she was overly punished rather than rehabilitated. It seems she IS being rehabilitated so I don't see how another 50 years in prison does her any good. she committed a crime and was convicted of hit. No problem. She was sentenced. No problem. I just think in this case it went too far given where she was coming from and what she had done up until then.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-29-2017, 04:21 PM)GMDino Wrote: Because of what we DO know.  And one of those things is that he picked her up for sex.  Not to save her soul.    

And you know this, how? Seriously. How do you know that he 1) picked her up for sex and 2)knew she was under 18?
I grant you that that's the most likely scenario, but it's not something we "DO know".

(11-29-2017, 04:21 PM)GMDino Wrote: Each case is unique.  In this case (not any hypothetical one) I think she was overly punished rather than rehabilitated.  It seems she IS being rehabilitated so I don't see how another 50 years in prison does her any good.  she committed a crime and was convicted of hit.  No problem.  She was sentenced.  No problem.  I just think in this case it went too far given where she was coming from and what she had done up until then.

I get that, but it seems from your posts, you're more upset for the length of her sentence because of who she killed and less on her past. I get her past is tragic, but that doesn't excuse her actions. As it doesn't excuse her actions, I don't really see how the punishment should be mitigated.

[GMDino]

(11-29-2017, 04:54 PM)PhilHos Wrote: And you know this, how? Seriously. How do you know that he 1) picked her up for sex and 2)knew she was under 18?
I grant you that that's the most likely scenario, but it's not something we "DO know".

I have seen nothing to refute that he picked her up for sex. She admits to being a prostitute who was being pimped out. (Some seem to thing "willingly").

I suppose if someone wants to try and make an excuse ("Hey...she TOLD me she was 18") that's as good as anything. Sadly she was 16 and being pimped out.0

(11-29-2017, 04:54 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I get that, but it seems from your posts, you're more upset for the length of her sentence because of who she killed and less on her past. I get her past is tragic, but that doesn't excuse her actions. As it doesn't excuse her actions, I don't really see how the punishment should be mitigated.

Nope. I'm saying it's because of her past that a life sentence was too harsh. I'm just not playing with hypotheticals like what she killed some stranger on the street or went nuts in a church or whatever. The guy she killed was a john who picked her up for sex. I have never said she didn't kill him or that she should not have been punished for it. I think (again) in THIS case the punishment was too severe.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-29-2017, 05:19 PM)GMDino Wrote: I have seen nothing to refute that he picked her up for sex.  She admits to being a prostitute who was being pimped out. (Some seem to thing "willingly").  

She also says she killed him in self defense. Her testimony lacks credibility. Who's to say that she didn't show up on his doorstep, force her way inside and kill him in cold blood? Maybe we caught a potential serial killer after only her first kill. I highly doubt either of those things, but again, as you said: there's a lot we don't know.

(11-29-2017, 05:19 PM)GMDino Wrote: Nope.  I'm saying it's because of her past that a life sentence was too harsh.   I'm just not playing with hypotheticals like what she killed some stranger on the street or went nuts in a church or whatever. 

Then you admit to missing my point. My point is that you're basing your opinion more on who she killed then on her past. What if she killed a nun? Or an innocent 15 year old girl? Or an infant in a crib? Would you still say her past means she should not be punished more than a few years in prison? I highly doubt it. I think you would sympathize with her situation, but also think she deserves her fate if she killed someone other than an older gentleman who most likely paid money to have sex with her.

(11-29-2017, 05:19 PM)GMDino Wrote: I have never said she didn't kill him or that she should not have been punished for it.  I think (again) in THIS case the punishment was too severe.

Yes, because she killed someone who most likely was a piece of shit willing to pay money to eff an underage girl.

[GMDino]

(11-29-2017, 05:37 PM)PhilHos Wrote: She also says she killed him in self defense. Her testimony lacks credibility. Who's to say that she didn't show up on his doorstep, force her way inside and kill him in cold blood? Maybe we caught a potential serial killer after only her first kill. I highly doubt either of those things, but again, as you said: there's a lot we don't know.

Weird. You'd think that would have come up in the trial and they would have accused of that.

That's why I'm not dealing with hypotheticals and dealing with what was in the trial that what talked about in the story.

(11-29-2017, 05:37 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Then you admit to missing my point. My point is that you're basing your opinion more on who she killed then on her past. What if she killed a nun? Or an innocent 15 year old girl? Or an infant in a crib? Would you still say her past means she should not be punished more than a few years in prison? I highly doubt it. I think you would sympathize with her situation, but also think she deserves her fate if she killed someone other than an older gentleman who most likely paid money to have sex with her.

She didn't kill any of those people. She was sexually abused and killed someone who picked her up for sex. This is a very narrow thing where her past (sexual abuse) should be considered in her act (killing). If she snapped on the street and killed a nun that would be a completely different situation. I still think her past should come into her sentencing. But in THIS case I think more so given the situation she was in.

She got her fate. Prison. If you think life in prison for a 16 year old with her past is acceptable then good for you.

(11-29-2017, 05:37 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, because she killed someone who most likely was a piece of shit willing to pay money to eff an underage girl.

Because of her past and the circumstances.

I'm guessing you don't think it matters. Life in prison unless self-defense?

Well, she got that so I guess we can be done now.