Christian Couple Vows To Get Divorced If Gay Marriage Is Legalized

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-12-2015, 06:24 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If you throw a sack full of kittens into the ocean you can go to jail. God threw the whole planet into the ocean except for one arc. Could have just snapped His fingers and poof...everyone would cease to exist, but He thought drowning everyone and everything was the better option. He let Satan murder Job's children among other things over a wager. He commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to prove his obedience.  Even though as an omniscient God he knew Abrahamwould obey thus obviating any need to test Abraham and said, "Do not do anything to him. Now I know. . ."

"Now"?

An all-knowing god "testing" anyone seems rather redundant and a waste of time.  But then again he has time on his side so...

[*bfine32*]

(06-12-2015, 06:48 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Heaven and earth haven't passed and he hasn't come back yet so all doesn't seem to have been fulfilled.  Why be that dramatic if he only meant literally less than a year?

No it has not and it is no longer required to until "things change". He fulfilled the prophecy and he has "come back" once. Not sure why I have to keep repeating this.

I don’t know what else to tell you. I have already mentioned that it was an historical fact that Slavery existed in the times of Moses; I further explained that many did this freely. There were also cases of folks that could not pay their debt and often times prisoners of war that were slaves.

It was forbidden to sell someone into slavery, as was the practice in 17th century America and many places today. There were also a number of early Christians that were slaves to Romans. God merely established guidelines to this practice and the vast majority of these guidelines addressing treating the slave with respect. The resurrection of Jesus does not make these rules wrong; it merely frees us from them.

In modern day America many kids are born into poverty; do you blame God for not forbidding poverty? Do answer that; I already know.
This thread has derailed far enough and has turned into the all too common “Bad Christian” theme with the same tired analogies.  “In biblical times it was OK to stone an adulteress, so that means that as a Christian you think it is Ok to stone an adulteress”. Folks talk about a concept that they cannot grasp because they try to use only their head. I will contribute no further to the derailment of this thread.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-12-2015, 04:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you like a rule that outlaws folks doing what they want?

I like the rule that abolished making slaves of men and women that did not want to do so freely.

I like the rule that says people can wail about giving others "rights" but then turn around and wail that others don't having the "right" to sell themselves in order to provide for themselves and possibly their families. Because they're not both about the individual person and how they're affected. 

I also really like the rule where the wailers point their hypocritical finger and blame those that believe in God, because apparently, they don't realize they're talking out of both sides of their mouths.

[fredtoast]

(06-12-2015, 04:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think the issue is taking thing that happened 4,000-6,000 years ago and applying them to today's society. There are a number of practices that can be found throughout history that are today considered barbaric or worse.

Who knows 6,000 years from now there will be a couple folks pointing finger at a Christian and stating "see what your god allowed back then, folks actually had to perform manual labor while their owner determined how much their service was worth."

Not sure how practices that happened in historic times can be used as ammunition to slight modern day Christianity; but it never stops folks from trying.
 

Your god has not changed or issued a "new modern" bible, has he?

I mean since homosexuality is becomed accepted in modern times that means you don't have be opposed to it, right?

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-12-2015, 07:06 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No it has not and it is no longer required to until "things change". He fulfilled the prophecy and he has "come back" once. Not sure why I have to keep repeating this.

I don’t know what else to tell you. I have already mentioned that it was an historical fact that Slavery existed in the times of Moses; I further explained that many did this freely. There were also cases of folks that could not pay their debt and often times prisoners of war that were slaves.

It was forbidden to sell someone into slavery, as was the practice in 17th century America and many places today. There were also a number of early Christians that were slaves to Romans. God merely established guidelines to this practice and the vast majority of these guidelines addressing treating the slave with respect. The resurrection of Jesus does not make these rules wrong; it merely frees us from them.

In modern day America many kids are born into poverty; do you blame God for not forbidding poverty? Do answer that; I already know.
This thread has derailed far enough and has turned into the all too common “Bad Christian” theme with the same tired analogies.  “In biblical times it was OK to stone an adulteress, so that means that as a Christian you think it is Ok to stone an adulteress”. Folks talk about a concept that they cannot grasp because they try to use only their head. I will contribute no further to the derailment of this thread.  

You really comparing poverty to forced servitude? Those bible quotes sort of render your apology absurd.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-12-2015, 05:06 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Ironically, you seem to be arguing for subjective morality.  

Christians tend to believe in an "objective morality" handed down to them by God himself.  Consequently, unless God changed his minds regarding the issue of slavery, it is irrelevant the time period.  He is supposedly timeless.  

At what point does/has God stepped in and physically stopped people, Christian or non, from doing wrong? Free will. Reap what you sow. etc etc.

Giving guidelines for something that man chose to do isn't culpability. There are cut and dried, black and white "don'ts" that are ignored daily by believers and non alike. Is God culpable because someone chose to do wrong when they were explicitly told not to?

Everyone loves to blame God for all the ills in the world when no one is forced, by Him, to do anything.

99.98% of religious denouncement is borne of laziness and ignorance. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-12-2015, 07:06 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No it has not and it is no longer required to until "things change". He fulfilled the prophecy and he has "come back" once. Not sure why I have to keep repeating this.

I don’t know what else to tell you. I have already mentioned that it was an historical fact that Slavery existed in the times of Moses; I further explained that many did this freely. There were also cases of folks that could not pay their debt and often times prisoners of war that were slaves.

It was forbidden to sell someone into slavery, as was the practice in 17th century America and many places today. There were also a number of early Christians that were slaves to Romans. God merely established guidelines to this practice and the vast majority of these guidelines addressing treating the slave with respect. The resurrection of Jesus does not make these rules wrong; it merely frees us from them.

In modern day America many kids are born into poverty; do you blame God for not forbidding poverty? Do answer that; I already know.
This thread has derailed far enough and has turned into the all too common “Bad Christian” theme with the same tired analogies.  “In biblical times it was OK to stone an adulteress, so that means that as a Christian you think it is Ok to stone an adulteress”. Folks talk about a concept that they cannot grasp because they try to use only their head. I will contribute no further to the derailment of this thread.  

You and I view slavery as an abomination. God condoned slavery.

Let that sink in.

This thread is about a Christian couple and how their judgment is affected by their religious beliefs. We are still discussing Christians and how their judgment is affected by their religious beliefs, correct?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-12-2015, 07:19 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I like the rule that says people can wail about giving others "rights" but then turn around and wail that others don't having the "right" to sell themselves in order to provide for themselves and possibly their families. Because they're not both about the individual person and how they're affected. 

I also really like the rule where the wailers point their hypocritical finger and blame those that believe in God, because apparently, they don't realize they're talking out of both sides of their mouths.

I understand your point. I might even agree with you if the only slaves were once free and sold themselves into slavery. But as the Bible verse stated children born into slavery were the property of their master and couldn't leave with their parent once the parent's term as a slave ended.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-12-2015, 07:47 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I understand your point. I might even agree with you if the only slaves were once free and sold themselves into slavery. But as the Bible verse stated children born into slavery were the property of their master and couldn't leave with their parent once the parent's term as a slave ended.

My only issue with what is usually forwarded is that God "condoned" slavery. I guess by literal definition, you could claim that and not be wrong. 

My only firm standing point is, while He may have "condoned" it, there are scores of instances where He "condones" other things simply because he didn't personally put a stop to it. Something that goes against the free will He has given us. That's not the same as Him creating slavery and saying, "here you go, enjoy!". 

People want to pick and choose the good and the bad. They want God to put a complete end to the bad; stop murderers from murdering, stop rapers from raping, stop children from getting terminal diseases. All, very good things to want. But the stone cold fact is, that's not the way it was set up. "that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." NIV. All are subject to this life, the good and the bad. 


The next question is usually, "why?". I don't have the answer to that question and i don't ask it anymore. Like i said in a previous post, i'm more concerned with the end/reward, than what happens to me day to day. Maybe it's old age, maybe i just finally got tired of asking. Doesn't matter. I can't prove that God exists to you but He's proven he exists to me. That's the way it works. Mano y Mano (in a manner of speaking). There isn't going to be a neon sign that says "Here I am", removing all doubt. That usually elicits another "why?". I have my own theories and beliefs but since my phone is dinging and someone is probably locked out of their house or lost the keys to their car, this is where i'll have to make my exit for now.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-12-2015, 07:32 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: At what point does/has God stepped in and physically stopped people, Christian or non, from doing wrong? Free will. Reap what you sow. etc etc.

The Great Flood. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.   The sacrifice of Isaac.   Just off the top of my head.

Quote:Giving guidelines for something that man chose to do isn't culpability. There are cut and dried, black and white "don'ts" that are ignored daily by believers and non alike. Is God culpable because someone chose to do wrong when they were explicitly told not to?

God condoned slavery which means he accepted slavery.   At the very least he is culpable.   God commanded, "Thou shalt not kill."  He didn't issue a series of rules regarding the who, what, where, when, why, and how rules for murder like he did for slavery.   God didn't condone murder so He commanded don't do it.

Quote:Everyone loves to blame God for all the ills in the world when no one is forced, by Him, to do anything.

99.98% of religious denouncement is borne of laziness and ignorance. 

He forced Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden for eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. You can't know the difference between right and wrong if you don't know the difference between good and evil. You can't understand disobeying God is wrong if you don't know what right and wrong are. God expelled Adam and Eve from Eden and he cursed the ground. The fall of man is due to original sin. Original sin is why all men are sinners and the world is full of sin. To summarize, all the ills of the world are because God is punishing all of humanity for Adam and Eve's original sin even though they couldn't yet understand right from wrong when they ate the forbidden fruit and God knew it would happen before He created Adam and Eve.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-12-2015, 08:50 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The Great Flood. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.   The sacrifice of Isaac.   Just off the top of my head.

My fault. I was speaking on a more micro level. Every day choices, not the condition of a city/region. 

I can't rationalize Abraham and Isaac. Seems pretty severe to me but i don't ask "why?" for every question i have because i choose to focus on the end, not each step of the journey. We can both agree that there are plenty of "whys?" to ask, i just don't do it as often as others because i don't think it's as important.

Quote:God condoned slavery which means he accepted slavery.   At the very least he is culpable.   God commanded, "Thou shalt not kill."  He didn't issue a series of rules regarding the who, what, where, when, why, and how rules for murder like he did for slavery.   God didn't condone murder so He commanded don't do it.

When people talk about slavery, the image they have is taking people from their homeland and selling them. The bible is pretty clear on this; "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16). The rest is up for debate..indentured servants...wartime spoils...etc. None of us lived in that time and to assume anything about it just causes circular arguments. There's no need for rules of murder since murder has never been the acceptable practice of a time.

Quote:He forced Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden for eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. You can't know the difference between right and wrong if you don't know the difference between good and evil. You can't understand disobeying God is wrong if you don't know what right and wrong are. God expelled Adam and Eve from Eden and he cursed the ground. The fall of man is due to original sin. Original sin is why all men are sinners and the world is full of sin. To summarize, all the ills of the world are because God is punishing all of humanity for Adam and Eve's original sin even though they couldn't yet understand right from wrong when they ate the forbidden fruit and God knew it would happen before He created Adam and Eve.

The one that created them tells them they can live forever in a paradise as long as they don't do one thing; eat from a tree which will cause you to "surely die". Pretty clear reason and explanation. I can't see anything that would be difficult to understand. Without a clear explanation, i can see your point. There was a clear explanation.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-12-2015, 08:26 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: My only issue with what is usually forwarded is that God "condoned" slavery. I guess by literal definition, you could claim that and not be wrong. 

My only firm standing point is, while He may have "condoned" it, there are scores of instances where He "condones" other things simply because he didn't personally put a stop to it. Something that goes against the free will He has given us. That's not the same as Him creating slavery and saying, "here you go, enjoy!". 

People want to pick and choose the good and the bad. They want God to put a complete end to the bad; stop murderers from murdering, stop rapers from raping, stop children from getting terminal diseases. All, very good things to want. But the stone cold fact is, that's not the way it was set up. "that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." NIV. All are subject to this life, the good and the bad. 

I disagree. The original set up was the Garden of Eden which didn't contain any of those ills. The ills came after the Fall.

Quote:The next question is usually, "why?". I don't have the answer to that question and i don't ask it anymore. Like i said in a previous post, i'm more concerned with the end/reward, than what happens to me day to day. Maybe it's old age, maybe i just finally got tired of asking. Doesn't matter. I can't prove that God exists to you but He's proven he exists to me. That's the way it works. Mano y Mano (in a manner of speaking). There isn't going to be a neon sign that says "Here I am", removing all doubt. That usually elicits another "why?". I have my own theories and beliefs but since my phone is dinging and someone is probably locked out of their house or lost the keys to their car, this is where i'll have to make my exit for now.

I'm agnostic. I can't prove or disprove a Creator. I logically don't rule out the possibility of a Creator. As to the next question, "why?" IDFK.  I sure don't have the answer. I just try to be the best person I can be. I took an oath to defend other's religious freedoms (even when I thought those beliefs were coocoo for cocoa puffs.) I don't try to force my views on others and I won't tolerate other's beliefs forced on me or anyone else.  If there is a Creator I doubt He/She/It/Them acts like the illogical, irrational, emotional, petulant, homicidal, vindictive, spoiled brat depicted in the Bible and I'll wager He is probably too damn busy running the universe to care if I eat bacon or masterbate.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-12-2015, 09:46 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I disagree. The original set up was the Garden of Eden which didn't contain any of those ills. The ills came after the Fall.

No one other than Adam and Eve were able to experience the original set up. Semantics, so i'll amend my previous to mean, v. 2.0.

Quote:I'm agnostic. I can't prove or disprove a Creator. I logically don't rule out the possibility of a Creator. As to the next question, "why?" IDFK.  I sure don't have the answer. I just try to be the best person I can be. I took an oath to defend other's religious freedoms (even when I thought those beliefs were coocoo for cocoa puffs.) I don't try to force my views on others and I won't tolerate other's beliefs forced on me or anyone else.   I'll wager He is probably too damn busy running the universe to care if I eat bacon or masterbate.

[treee]

(06-12-2015, 12:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ..and I don't like when folks run their mouths without fully reading and understanding what they are replying to. But that doesn't mean I dislike the person; sorry you feel differently.

You must pride yourself on being such a good person.

[*bfine32*]

(06-13-2015, 12:39 AM)treee Wrote: You must pride yourself on being such a good person.

Nope. I just choose to focus on the act and not the person.

That puts me in the minority around here.

[treee]

(06-13-2015, 01:13 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope. I just choose to focus on the act and not the person.

That puts me in the minority around here.

More like you focus on whatever it is that confirms your world view. It's okay, some people aren't comfortable with being empathetic. 

[*bfine32*]

(06-13-2015, 01:13 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope. I just choose to focus on the act and not the person.

That puts me in the minority around here.

(06-13-2015, 01:36 AM)treee Wrote: More like you focus on whatever it is that confirms your world view. It's okay, some people aren't comfortable with being empathetic. 

Told ya.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-12-2015, 09:40 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: The one that created them tells them they can live forever in a paradise as long as they don't do one thing; eat from a tree which will cause you to "surely die". Pretty clear reason and explanation. I can't see anything that would be difficult to understand. Without a clear explanation, i can see your point. There was a clear explanation.

The serpent lied to Eve and deceived her.  If Eve didn't know good from evil she couldn't possibly understand lies and deception.  She would never even suspect what she was doing was wrong because she didn't know right and wrong.

God created the serpent and his nature. God knew the serpent would deceive Eve. God knew Adam and Eve would disobey Him. Yet, He allowed it all to happen and was angry when it did. Punished them for a situation he created and allowed to unfold exactly as He knew it would.

That's like throwing a steak on the kitchen floor and telling my dogs not to eat the steak knowing damn well they will eat that steak as soon as it hits the floor because they don't know any better. Then me getting pissed off and punishing them for doing exactly what I knew they would do before they did it. Not only punishing them, but also punishing their puppies and their puppies' puppies and their puppies' puppies' puppies, etc.

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-13-2015, 02:51 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The serpent lied to Eve and deceived her.  If Eve didn't know good from evil she couldn't possibly understand lies and deception.  She would never even suspect what she was doing was wrong because she didn't know right and wrong.

God created the serpent and his nature. God knew the serpent would deceive Eve. God knew Adam and Eve would disobey Him. Yet, He allowed it all to happen and was angry when it did. Punished them for a situation he created and allowed to unfold exactly as He knew it would.

That's like throwing a steak on the kitchen floor and telling my dogs not to eat the steak knowing damn well they will eat that steak as soon as it hits the floor because they don't know any better. Then me getting pissed off and punishing them for doing exactly what I knew they would do before they did it. Not only punishing them, but also punishing their puppies and their puppies' puppies and their puppies' puppies' puppies, etc.

It is a petty and irrational response don't you think?  By their own account he doesn't appear to be moral in any meaningful sense.   Funny when you consider the Tower of Babel story where he felt the need to intercede by changing man's language to keep them from building a tower they could never have build anyways.

Makes you wonder why he didn't change the serpents language so Eve couldn't be tempted by it?

I mean how many serpents do you understand in modern time?  Moreover which did more lasting damage, Babel or the Garden of Eden story?

God created a situation he knew would result in suffering and misery and by his lack of inaction sanctioned it.

The Babel Story highlights the fact he isn't above interjecting himself when he feels it is necessary.

[Belsnickel]

(06-13-2015, 01:13 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Nope. I just choose to focus on the act and not the person.

That puts me in the minority around here.

Shouldn't you focus on both? Love the sinner, hate the sin and all?